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1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

You may well be right about the IT rules they have, I wouldn't know.

I was wondering more about the sharing bit than the IT side.  The report said it was 'confidential' which had me wondering if she was carelessly sharing secrets.  That would be massive.

Agreed, but the other aspect of this affair is that the use of private email accounts by Minister is forbidden for a whole series of good reasons, of which security/integrity of documents is but one.

But as far as the security risk is concerned her use of a private email address was not just careless but of itself a serious breach of the rules and posed a risk to all the information on the device irrespective of which document(s) she actually emailed.

The other obvious question is whether her actions were indeed simply careless or  in fact deliberate - we know that that despite the rules the use of private emails for government related business has been commonplace amongst government ministers, certainly since 2019. It has been well-documented that much of the corrupt canvassing/awarding of PPE and other contracts employed private email in an attempt to avoid leaving a paper trail.

However you look at it, it is a very serious breach by senior minister in a highly sensitive area and inconceivable that said minister could be back in position a week afterwards - clearly from Sunak's non-answer at PMQs that is the advice which he received and chose to ignore - aa decision I  suspect will come back to haunt him.

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

In all the scenarios I can think of with business confidentiality, medical records to official secrets; being slapdash with such documents is a serious dismissible offence and in the case of official secret documents possibly a criminal offence.

I also recall that Gavin Williamson was also slapdash in the past.

 

Unlawfully sharing secret documents is straight up criminal. If that's what she did then its clearly massive.

If she shared official (ie not 'secret') documents beyond the intended distribution list then its bad form and presumably against procedural rules.  

Both are bad.   The former though is clearly far more serious.

I haven't the foggiest idea of what cyber security rules there are in the home office or indeed how the document was distributed so whilst CM rightly raises the issue its a conversation that doesn't really go anywhere worthwhile until more becomes known.

 

Edited by Barbe bleu

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I think I read* that Braverman shared documents using her personal email account about the government’s forthcoming immigration policy. Because these were deemed potentially market sensitive (less immigration would mean it’s harder to fill lower paid jobs, more immigration would increase employment, boosting the economy) they were confidential. On top of that, she accidentally copied in an MP’s wife instead of an intended recipient. I don’t know, but this sort of error may not be possible with official government email systems. So she was guilty of deliberately sharing confidential documents beyond their intended audience by unauthorised means and carelessness with them.

Also, I think we know what Donald Trump’s  response is to people who use their personal email accounts for government business - lock them up! 

*I say I think I read because I’m surprised no-one else has posted this already, but I’m 99% sure this was the explanation I heard.

 

 

Edited by Nuff Said
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Jake Berry MP has dropped her right in the ****. A massive mistake already for Sunak? 😀

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13 minutes ago, Herman said:

Jake Berry MP has dropped her right in the ****. A massive mistake already for Sunak? 😀

You’ve lost me there Herman ? Thanks

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7 hours ago, Well b back said:

You’ve lost me there Herman ? Thanks

He announced on Talk TV that there were multiple breaches of the ministerial code. Cyber security documents were also involved in the mishandling. 

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14 minutes ago, Herman said:

He announced on Talk TV that there were multiple breaches of the ministerial code. Cyber security documents were also involved in the mishandling. 

What did Rishi know, and when did he know it?

Braverman is a loose cannon to say the very least.  Get rid.

Edited by benchwarmer
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1 hour ago, Herman said:

He announced on Talk TV that there were multiple breaches of the ministerial code. Cyber security documents were also involved in the mishandling. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/26/suella-braverman-return-after-security-breach-defended-by-james-cleverly

Bit more detail in there. He's really thrown her under the bus, then got the driver to reverse the bus over her. Which is ironic, as that's one of the new immigration policies she was trying to put in place for asylum seekers.

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1 hour ago, benchwarmer said:

What did Rishi know, and when did he know it?

Braverman is a loose cannon to say the very least.  Get rid.

It's even worse if he didn't know. Appointing someone to such a senior position so soon after a serious data security breach...don't you think it should be obvious to find out everything about it BEFORE he offers her the job and not after? 

The whole narrative changing to how 'Rishi' will provide stability and the media seemingly giving him an easier ride is shaped and driven by the tories! It's totally indicative as to why centrist politics is totally out of touch in this day and age - he's a right wing nutcase appointing even more nutty cases to senior cabinet positions!

Politics should never be style over substance, and it proves that is what centrism naturally drifts towards. 

There will be more wool-pulling and attacks on opponents than ever before in the press and the narrative is rapidly changing already with the Tories smiling again and being partisan behind their leader. Come on Britain, have a back bone and use your own brain for once instead of the Daily Mail's and Rupert Murdoch's.

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10 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

 

Also, I think we know what Donald Trump’s  response is to people who use their personal email accounts for government business - lock them up! 

 

 

 

Only for certain people, when Ivanka did it he didn't mention it or any appropriate punishment.

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I was watching a bit of PMQ yesterday.

Anybody else like me have that sinking feeling again as to the state of British politics. I was desperately trying to give Sunak a chance but no - off he goes on tired old attacks on Corbyn and similar out of date irrelevant tub thumping for his deranged party as opposed to addressing the grown up and pertinent questions to hand.

If this is how its going to be please let's extinguish the Tory party and change the system to a PR one where we might have some grown up debate in the HoC. Else somebody please turn the lights out on this at best clearly failed 20th century institution.

Sickening.

Edited by Yellow Fever
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Is Sunak really interested in anything other than the economy. While it is rightly front and centre right now, there are other matters that he cannot ignore.

We have now had two Home Secretaries who give the impression of preferring bully or big brother tactics when carrying out their port folio. I believe only the very far right approve. Would supporters really think it was OK to ban a protest outside Carrow Road?

Is it right to blame one section of society for the country's ills? Is taking away the right to withdraw labour the first step to control?

A Party that purports to want less State involvement wants the State to control what it disapproves of.

Braverman appears to be a nasty bit of work. She has already identified certain sections of our society as lazy, dangerous, political and greedy. Funny that is what many people perceive as the CV of a politician.

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20 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Is Sunak really interested in anything other than the economy. While it is rightly front and centre right now, there are other matters that he cannot ignore.

We have now had two Home Secretaries who give the impression of preferring bully or big brother tactics when carrying out their port folio. I believe only the very far right approve. Would supporters really think it was OK to ban a protest outside Carrow Road?

Is it right to blame one section of society for the country's ills? Is taking away the right to withdraw labour the first step to control?

A Party that purports to want less State involvement wants the State to control what it disapproves of.

Braverman appears to be a nasty bit of work. She has already identified certain sections of our society as lazy, dangerous, political and greedy. Funny that is what many people perceive as the CV of a politician.

He isn't even interested in that, he's a billionaire. These headline desperate, spotlight whores are interested in themselves and nothing else.

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50 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Would supporters really think it was OK to ban a protest outside Carrow Road?

 

No need to ban protests outside Carrow Road. Assuming it's not during  his 10% break the sporting director is always on hand to sort the protestors out in an appropriate fashion.

 

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2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I was watching a bit of PMQ yesterday.

Anybody else like me have that sinking feeling again as to the state of British politics. I was desperately trying to give Sunak a chance but no - off he goes on tired old attacks on Corbyn and similar out of date irrelevant tub thumping for his deranged party as opposed to addressing the grown up and pertinent questions to hand.

If this is how its going to be please let's extinguish the Tory party and change the system to a PR one where we might have some grown up debate in the HoC. Else somebody please turn the lights out on this at best clearly failed 20th century institution.

Sickening.

I’m afraid SKS with his Truss/ lettuce jibe, which whilst amusing was hardly offering mature debate either YF.

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Just now, Van wink said:

I’m afraid SKS with his Truss/ lettuce jibe, which whilst amusing was hardly offering mature debate either YF.

At least it was current - not 3 or 4 years plus out of date. I know PMQ is a bit of a knock around but really. 

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1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Isn't it about time the Tories kicked the DUP into touch?

Isn't it about time the country kicked the tories into touch?

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37 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

At least it was current - not 3 or 4 years plus out of date. I know PMQ is a bit of a knock around but really. 

It IS very depressing and from today I've chosen to try and not watch again. It's just pantomime and a bit of sport. I find the whole thing quite pointless. It's a pity that it's the preferred way that the media likes to present to the general public our parliament in action. I suppose it generates the news headlines.

It's the same on the mainstream TV politics programmes - no-one seemingly can own anything but just spar and argue. Take this morning. Zahawi was able to spout his usual generalities, his spinning. Rarely do interviewers land much. He talked about the fact that there were "no easy decisions" to be made about the hole in our finances. Yet no-one asked him what the difficult decisions were! Or to get him to outline why they were difficult! 

Far better are the more serious radio programmes (plus you don't have to actually see someone lying anyway) as well as podcasts - you come across debate into some issues. Likewise, reports are regularly published from academics and these are worth a read, especially if you are able to corroborate some conclusions to what you know about in your own life.

I had high hopes (as I did with May, when she talked about what she wanted for the country when first being PM - that she might be different to Cameron and his absurd and cruel austerity. But she failed) and then, that Sunak was going to be true to his words about honest government (earning our trust and having integrity) - only then to appoint someone who had resigned less than a week ago, because she felt she had made an error of judgement. It has undermined his whole thrust from the outset.

Using Corbyn is like some magic word Tories use. Like talking about Marxism. They've no idea what Marx thought, nor about his political theory. If they studied his work rather than cheaply looking at authoritarian dictatorships and conflating the two then they might learn something.  It's their shorthand to try and be stop debate by creating outrage. Say "Corbyn" and somehow it's meant to be a trump card. 

As ever, I want to believe what folk in politics say. But you can't.

The undermining of trust in our system continues to erode each year. PR (or similar structures) would make for boring and more technical politics - messier and more complex. But we might get an idea of what change we are looking for over the long term. Like an industrial strategy, a skills strategy, linked to our education system. And so on. Yet what do we hear about? Our "Brexit freedoms".

It's the same Tory party ... for example, whatever Zahawi says about there being a version 2.0 Boris Johnson,  there never will be. Levelling Up? There won't be because with their policies there cannot be! 

Perhaps some people can still be duped into believing these liars and charlatans. 

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3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

It IS very depressing and from today I've chosen to try and not watch again. It's just pantomime and a bit of sport. I find the whole thing quite pointless. It's a pity that it's the preferred way that the media likes to present to the general public our parliament in action. I suppose it generates the news headlines.

It's the same on the mainstream TV politics programmes - no-one seemingly can own anything but just spar and argue. Take this morning. Zahawi was able to spout his usual generalities, his spinning. Rarely do interviewers land much. He talked about the fact that there were "no easy decisions" to be made about the hole in our finances. Yet no-one asked him what the difficult decisions were! Or to get him to outline why they were difficult! 

Far better are the more serious radio programmes (plus you don't have to actually see someone lying anyway) as well as podcasts - you come across debate into some issues. Likewise, reports are regularly published from academics and these are worth a read, especially if you are able to corroborate some conclusions to what you know about in your own life.

I had high hopes (as I did with May, when she talked about what she wanted for the country when first being PM - that she might be different to Cameron and his absurd and cruel austerity. But she failed) and then, that Sunak was going to be true to his words about honest government (earning our trust and having integrity) - only then to appoint someone who had resigned less than a week ago, because she felt she had made an error of judgement. It has undermined his whole thrust from the outset.

Using Corbyn is like some magic word Tories use. Like talking about Marxism. They've no idea what Marx thought, nor about his political theory. If they studied his work rather than cheaply looking at authoritarian dictatorships and conflating the two then they might learn something.  It's their shorthand to try and be stop debate by creating outrage. Say "Corbyn" and somehow it's meant to be a trump card. 

As ever, I want to believe what folk in politics say. But you can't.

The undermining of trust in our system continues to erode each year. PR (or similar structures) would make for boring and more technical politics - messier and more complex. But we might get an idea of what change we are looking for over the long term. Like an industrial strategy, a skills strategy, linked to our education system. And so on. Yet what do we hear about? Our "Brexit freedoms".

It's the same Tory party ... for example, whatever Zahawi says about there being a version 2.0 Boris Johnson,  there never will be. Levelling Up? There won't be because with their policies there cannot be! 

Perhaps some people can still be duped into believing these liars and charlatans. 

Yes - I just saw Sunak revert to 'type' and instantly all my goodwill vanished. 

He was simply playing to his 'crowd'.

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1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Isn't it about time the Tories kicked the DUP into touch?

 

6 minutes ago, Captain Holt said:

Isn't it about time the country kicked the tories into touch?

It's simply the result of the ill informed bonkers Brexit. There is no solution that can satisfy the DUP and no borders in Ireland.

Either NI becomes part of Eire in due course, or the UK rejoins the CM or SM.

 

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2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

At least it was current - not 3 or 4 years plus out of date. I know PMQ is a bit of a knock around but really. 

Yep it’s all panto now, a bit of light entertainment for those with the time to observe. The truth is possibly that there isn’t that much between the main parties atm, SKS has not established an identity that really differentiates Labour from Sunak’s Tories so what is there to discuss.

I would love to see or hear footage of PMQ’s from the distant past when maybe we all felt that politics was more authentic, I wonder if what we see now is that much different?

Edited by Van wink

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18 hours ago, Well b back said:

Please read your post that’s not what you said and we were talking about what happened after the mini budget, which you insisted was a world thing. The £65 billion was a U.K. thing. 
Like I have said I don’t do Trumpism anymore. The facts in this case are very simple, Liz Truss in 44 days or whatever it was cost the U.K. economy £65 billion. As soon as those were reversed, that figure reduced by approx £25 billion still a £40 billion hole. 
All of that has absoloutely diddly squat with what is happening elsewhere unlike the original drops that were to do with the world economy.

https://fullfact.org/economy/bank-of-england-65-billion-gilts-mini-budget/

read this it might help with your understanding of what really happened.

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6 hours ago, Captain Holt said:

It's even worse if he didn't know. Appointing someone to such a senior position so soon after a serious data security breach...don't you think it should be obvious to find out everything about it BEFORE he offers her the job and not after? 

 

Agreed.  But was he lied to?  It's not just the Labour Party that wants him to fail.  There are plenty of enemies within.

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2 hours ago, ricardo said:

https://fullfact.org/economy/bank-of-england-65-billion-gilts-mini-budget/

read this it might help with your understanding of what really happened.

That Rishi guys a lying b****** saying the mini budget caused this then. 
The mini budget was nothing to do with what was happening previous to said budget, and the BOE 65 billion also had nothing to do with the £65 billion, their bail out was to buy gilts from pension funds to save said pension funds. Had they have not acted, the U.K. economy would have plummeted further, and possibly moved beyond repair, certainly many pensioners and future pensioners would have been f*****, some were, as are some mortgage holders.

Lets move your Trumpism to one side. The mini budget meant there was a 60 - 70 billion shortfall in how the U.K. could repay said debt. This debt increased by said mini budget had to be repaid, but then chancellor refused to show how it was being repaid. By the time the new chancellor could start reversing the said mini budget it had cost the U.K. that 60 - 70 billion, however by reversing the taxes that could pay back an estimated 25 billion ie us U.K. citizens are now being asked to repay the tax cuts we were given. Furthermore her said mini budget caused debt on debt meaning the citizens of the U.K. owe another between 30 and 50 billion £ which the government will have to repay. I assume they will take another Labour / Lib Dem policy with some windfall taxes, but any left will need to be made up by either more cuts or higher taxes.

Your post was before the BOE £65 billion which meant what you posted was a total red herring ( Trumpism ). Your post was very clear the crashes in the market were ‘ not the mini budget ‘, they were do to ‘ World events ‘. I think you also hinted the IMF etc were talking tosh. With your original post you did not understand what gilts were and how they were adding to the £65 billion debt. 
Your original post was very clear, the mini budget didn’t cause the market collapse ( ie it wasn’t the U.K. ) the crash commencing the day of the mini budget was caused by world markets. Your then post that queried said that because of Rishi Sunak’s actions the markets recovered, very true, but you can’t have it both ways, if reversing the mini budget caused markets to start recovering, then the mini budget must have been the cause. Not only has Sunak conceded this, he also concedes that due to that mini budget there will need to be higher taxes and more cuts. His get out of jail free card will of course be due to World events ie if the cost of gas carries on falling etc. Of course I guess he like others will then be claiming it was something the U.K. did ie Trumpism.

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8 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I was watching a bit of PMQ yesterday.

Anybody else like me have that sinking feeling again as to the state of British politics. I was desperately trying to give Sunak a chance but no - off he goes on tired old attacks on Corbyn and similar out of date irrelevant tub thumping for his deranged party as opposed to addressing the grown up and pertinent questions to hand.

If this is how its going to be please let's extinguish the Tory party and change the system to a PR one where we might have some grown up debate in the HoC. Else somebody please turn the lights out on this at best clearly failed 20th century institution.

Sickening.

It’s called Trumpism and Farageism, I suppose you should add Johnson to the list lol

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29 minutes ago, Well b back said:

That Rishi guys a lying b****** saying the mini budget caused this then. 
The mini budget was nothing to do with what was happening previous to said budget, and the BOE 65 billion also had nothing to do with the £65 billion, their bail out was to buy gilts from pension funds to save said pension funds. Had they have not acted, the U.K. economy would have plummeted further, and possibly moved beyond repair, certainly many pensioners and future pensioners would have been f*****, some were, as are some mortgage holders.

 

Good to see you finally understand that the Bank of England's commitment to spend 65 billion to buy gilts if needed and the government budget deficit are two entirely different  things👍

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4 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

It's simply the result of the ill informed bonkers Brexit. There is no solution that can satisfy the DUP and no borders in Ireland.

Either NI becomes part of Eire in due course, or the UK rejoins the CM or SM.

 

Hopefully that will be one of Sunak's "hard choices".  Doing nothing is not an option.

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