New Tory Leader

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

Anyway, I think we can all agree that Liz Truss actually is the worst British PM ever. 

[horsefly 4,273]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Anyway, I think we can all agree that Liz Truss actually is the worst British PM ever. 

Haha! She's supposed to be on her honeymoon period and the country is already petitioning for divorce.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Haha! She's supposed to be on her honeymoon period and the country is already petitioning for divorce.

We're past the point where we can petition for annulment. She has screwed the country already. 

[TheGunnShow 5,905]

They should just put a picture of her on Pornhub saying "Blonde f*ucks whole country at once!"

[Well b back 3,180]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Turns out the IMF are a bunch of old lefties. Unbelievable.😀

 

Their problem is a few months ago people would have taken this in. Now even if it’s true nobody believes them, that’s how things have turned. 

[Well b back 3,180]

Oh dear she’s fast losing the dressing room

Incidentally, I understand the prime minister was initially reluctant to intervene on Monday.

In the end a statement was issued by the Treasury.

I'm told it is "plain wrong" Liz Truss and the Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng had a massive barney, what some have described as a "shouting match".

[Mr Apples 1,315]

4 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Oh dear she’s fast losing the dressing room

Incidentally, I understand the prime minister was initially reluctant to intervene on Monday.

In the end a statement was issued by the Treasury.

I'm told it is "plain wrong" Liz Truss and the Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng had a massive barney, what some have described as a "shouting match".

I'm sure they kissed and made up after it though? 🤔🤣

Apples

[Well b back 3,180]

Another crash in the pound and ftse. FTSE now tanking towards 6850. 
All parties ( other than Tories ) demanding Parliament should be recalled.

[Herman 9,694]

Is Truss back to being accused of being a remainer yet? 

[sonyc 5,481]

12 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Another crash in the pound and ftse. FTSE now tanking towards 6850. 
All parties ( other than Tories ) demanding Parliament should be recalled.

Ray Dalio, a billionaire veteran investor and founder of Bridgewater, the world’s largest hedge fund, has explained why gilts and sterling have sold off, and expressed concern about the government’s understanding of the situation. He agrees with the IMF that the tax cuts were a mistake, and says that “excessive borrowing” is unsustainable.

The UK is running a large deficit which means it has to sell a lot of bonds and it’s running a current account deficit, which means it has to bring that money from abroad. And when you have more bonds to sell than the market wants to buy there’s a limitation and as a result there is a selloff. And that selloff is both a decline in bonds which raises interest rates and also a decline in sterling. This has been something that has happened a number of times in the UK, at real historic moments, and I would think that there would be an understanding of the mechanics of that by the government and that’s why it’s concerning…

I can’t imagine that this is intended and if it’s not intended, then it’s an understanding question.

You have to have real interest rates rise, you have to have interest rates rise higher than inflation. Past evaluations such as the 1992 ERM realignment is such that you would know that high enough interest rates don’t rectify the problem. It’s a basic thing. You can’t spend more than you earn without creating debt. And when that debt does not have a high enough return to compensate for inflation you’re going to have this kind of imbalance.

Asked about the government’s planned ‘dash for growth,’ he says:

That doesn’t make any sense. You can’t make wealth by running large deficits, you have to have lenders who want to own the debt and still it becomes a debt that is a burden. It doesn’t stimulate the economy, productivity is what stimulates the economy over the long run.

The IMF says the tax cuts were a mistake, and Dalio agrees.

Yes, it’s a mistake because it’s [sterling] not a major reserve currency and you need foreign money. You can’t do this without its consequences and yes it undermines the desirability of owning that.

***  "at real historic moments". **** (gulp)

Edited September 28, 2022 by sonyc

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

7 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

This is what the IMF had to say about cutting the top rate of tax:

A spokesman for the Washington DC-based organisation said Mr Kwarteng's announcement in November would “present an early opportunity for the UK Government to consider ways to provide support that is more targeted and reevaluate the tax measures, especially those that benefit high-income earners”.

The tax measure amounts to £2B per year, which is chicken feed for an economy like ours. Compare this to the £41B that the UK gives to Scotland each year and you can see it in context.

 

Fair enough. Tell you what, lets take all high earners out of tax and that will solve all the problems.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

39 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Oh dear she’s fast losing the dressing room

Incidentally, I understand the prime minister was initially reluctant to intervene on Monday.

In the end a statement was issued by the Treasury.

I'm told it is "plain wrong" Liz Truss and the Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng had a massive barney, what some have described as a "shouting match".

That is a disgrace

[Yellow Fever 3,732]

Bank of England intervening in the bond market! - fully indemnified by HM Treasury (i.e us tax payers).

Hardly a vote of confidence is it.

It would be far cheaper to just change the lunatic government.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

On 23/09/2022 at 22:08, littleyellowbirdie said:

What I actually find really funny in all of this is that over and over again, we've had opposition calls for resignations, and they've got their way, and we've had a new PM, who has been worse than the one before. 

I couldn't envision this happening under Johnson or May. This seems like a great lesson in being careful for what you wish for .

Granted I don't think any of us thought that starting with a very poor Prime Minister (worst ever IMO at the time) that the Tories were capable of producing three more each successively worse than the previous one - you would think that with Truss we have finally hit rock bottom but who knows, given that track record and with 2 years still to go to a GE maybe there is still even worse to come!

But it seems a bit rich to me to be throwing blame onto opposition calls for resignations when the opposition played no part whatsoever in Cameron's resignation and no real part in May's either which was driven by a faction in the Tory party led by a B Johnson. As far as Johnson was concerned, given his disgraceful behaviour, his incompetence and his corruption it was essentially the opposition's duty to call for his resignation and again they were scarcely alone in that either in the country or in Parliament where it was again Tory MPs disgusted with him that took the only effective action against him.

Whilst you are right that this recent piece of economic lunacy wouldn't have happened under Johnson, there was still plenty of other damage he could/would have inflicted on the country and would have had the support of his party to do it. We will have to wait and see but at least we now have a PM that almost everyone, including most Tory MPs, recognise is literally bonkers so I think there is some faint hope that she won't actually be able to push many of her bizarre ideas through the HoC.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

5 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Granted I don't think any of us thought that starting with a very poor Prime Minister (worst ever IMO at the time) that the Tories were capable of producing three more each successively worse than the previous one - you would think that with Truss we have finally hit rock bottom but who knows, given that track record and with 2 years still to go to a GE maybe there is still even worse to come!

But it seems a bit rich to me to be throwing blame onto opposition calls for resignations when the opposition played no part whatsoever in Cameron's resignation and no real part in May's either which was driven by a faction in the Tory party led by a B Johnson. As far as Johnson was concerned, given his disgraceful behaviour, his incompetence and his corruption it was essentially the opposition's duty to call for his resignation and again they were scarcely alone in that either in the country or in Parliament where it was again Tory MPs disgusted with him that took the only effective action against him.

Whilst you are right that this recent piece of economic lunacy wouldn't have happened under Johnson, there was still plenty of other damage he could/would have inflicted on the country and would have had the support of his party to do it. We will have to wait and see but at least we now have a PM that almost everyone, including most Tory MPs, recognise is literally bonkers so I think there is some faint hope that she won't actually be able to push many of her bizarre ideas through the HoC.

The opposition played no part in Cameron's resignation, but it did play a part in May's. Her deal was a damage control exercise that in practise would have left us in the customs union indefinitely by way of the NI backstop. In all likelihood, in my opinion, we likely would have finished up back in the EU. It was a shoddy compromise that the right of the Conservative party hated, which should have been a cue for opposition to let her see it through. Instead, they played winner takes all and it blew up in everybody's face. 

We're now fully out of the EU with bridges all but burnt and on the cusp of joining another international body that is totally incompatible with rejoining the EU. 

It's starting to look possible that we might actually have a change of government before CPTPP accession is completed, in which case, Starmer will be in the position of choosing whether to follow through with CPTPP accession or to abandon that with a view to grovelling to the EU with a view to rejoining. What are the implications of that? We'll have reinforced the idea that the UK is unstable and unpredictable and increased uncertainty in Asia with countries wondering whether our recent security commitments to Asia would be torn up as well. We will have closed off all other avenues and we'll be in a position of accepting whatever the EU demands to readmit, even assuming they'd let us in at all given we'll still not have reformed the electoral system, leaving the door open for Farage and co to wreak havoc yet again. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The opposition played no part in Cameron's resignation, but it did play a part in May's. Her deal was a damage control exercise that in practise would have left us in the customs union indefinitely by way of the NI backstop. It was a shoddy compromise that the right of the Conservative party hated, which should have been a cue for opposition to let her see it through. Instead, they played winner takes all and it blew up in everybody's face. 

Quite bizarre, you say yourself that May's deal was a shoddy compromise (which it was) but you think that the opposition were wrong to oppose it and demand she negotiate a better one?????

Anyway it doesn't matter how you try and frame it, May was brought down by the machinations within her own party and to pretend otherwise is pointless.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

8 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Quite bizarre, you say yourself that May's deal was a shoddy compromise (which it was) but you think that the opposition were wrong to oppose it and demand she negotiate a better one?????

Anyway it doesn't matter how you try and frame it, May was brought down by the machinations within her own party and to pretend otherwise is pointless.

You missed the full implication of what I was saying, that it would have resulted in effectively cutting off pursuing avenues outside the EU, leaving us in its orbit as non-stakeholders, which, in my view, could only have finished up with us rejoining. The opposition completely failed to take the long view. 

And there's no pretense in this argument. Opposition is not obliged to vote against government all the time simply on principle; it does have a choice in its actions, and it chose to undermine May in her own battle against the right of the Conservative party, preferring symbolism of a cheap win. 

To underline what I'm saying, there were instances where John Major actually carried votes in parliament in spite of internal rebellion, because the opposition chose to vote with the government whip. If anything, this was even more humiliating for the government, because Major was seen as being out of control of his own party as a result and more on song with the opposition. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You missed the full implication of what I was saying, that it would have resulted in effectively cutting off pursuing avenues outside the EU, leaving us in its orbit as non-stakeholders, which, in my view, could only have finished up with us rejoining. The opposition completely failed to take the long view. 

And there's no pretense in this argument. Opposition is not obliged to vote against government all the time simply on principle; it does have a choice in its actions, and it chose to undermine May in her own battle against the right of the Conservative party. 

Corbyn was an EU sceptic and all he wanted to do was bring down a Tory Government, or certainly Momentum did. He was listening to the wrong people. And because he never yes or no to a second referendum, he was never going to abandon his goal. His previous success and the Glasto love in, he thought he could hold the power. Ill advised.

[benchwarmer 624]

Sajid Javid for PM.  The only one with any sense.  He would steady the ship and then call a GE in the spring.  Not a chance that the Tory membership would elect a Muslim though. 

Truss and Kwarteng have got drunk on power and stolen a Ferrari but haven't a clue how to drive it.  Someone needs to take the keys away pdq.

Edited September 28, 2022 by benchwarmer

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

12 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You missed the full implication of what I was saying, that it would have resulted in effectively cutting off pursuing avenues outside the EU, leaving us in its orbit as non-stakeholders, which, in my view, could only have finished up with us rejoining. The opposition completely failed to take the long view. 

And there's no pretense in this argument. Opposition is not obliged to vote against government all the time simply on principle; it does have a choice in its actions, and it chose to undermine May in her own battle against the right of the Conservative party, preferring symbolism of a cheap win. 

To underline what I'm saying, there were instances where John Major actually carried votes in parliament in spite of internal rebellion, because the opposition chose to vote with the government whip. If anything, this was even more humiliating for the government, because Major was seen as being out of control of his own party as a result and more on song with the opposition. 

I haven't missed the implications at all and of course it is possible, as John Major did, to overcome internal revolts by following policies which commanded support from MPs outside his own party.

May had the same opportunity - Labour had made it very clear that they would back an acceptable exit deal. But May herself ruled that out, right at the outset (and whilst she still had a working majority), with a mixture of ignorance and stupidity leading to her ridiculous red lines - the whole of her tortuous and completely inept negotiations were predicated on achieving a deal which the Tory party would pass itself without any help from Labour - she was always far more concerned with maintaining the unity of her own party than achieving the best possible deal for the country, that was obvious from the start.

Of course, throwing away her majority blew a huge hole in that strategy but by then and given her determination to press ahead with 'her' deal it is ludicrous to expect the opposition to bail her out of a hole of her own making. Even late on, when she finally opted to discuss her deal with Labour to see it could be made acceptable to them it turned out to be a completely empty gesture without any genuine discussion.

A wiser and better informed politician than May would have realised her strategy of reconciling all parts of a very divided Tory party was not in the national interest and in any case was doomed to failure. Had she placed the national interest first and based on that negotiated the best possible deal she could for the country then she may well have succeeded in facing the ERG down with, if necessary, support from the Labour party.

You can draw a pretty straight line from her failure to even attempt any of that between 2016 & 2019 to the current utter chaos we find ourselves in today

[Yellow Fever 3,732]

Simply its time, past time, that this most inept of all Tory government simply resigned.

Those Tory's that are sensible should simpy cross the floor if necessary and bring the government down.

We need a new PM - caretaker if need be NOW.

Truss, the ERG should simply hang their heads in shame and embarrassment.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

8 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I haven't missed the implications at all and of course it is possible, as John Major did, to overcome internal revolts by following policies which commanded support from MPs outside his own party.

May had the same opportunity - Labour had made it very clear that they would back an acceptable exit deal. But May herself ruled that out, right at the outset (and whilst she still had a working majority), with a mixture of ignorance and stupidity leading to her ridiculous red lines - the whole of her tortuous and completely inept negotiations were predicated on achieving a deal which the Tory party would pass itself without any help from Labour - she was always far more concerned with maintaining the unity of her own party than achieving the best possible deal for the country, that was obvious from the start.

Of course, throwing away her majority blew a huge hole in that strategy but by then and given her determination to press ahead with 'her' deal it is ludicrous to expect the opposition to bail her out of a hole of her own making. Even late on, when she finally opted to discuss her deal with Labour to see it could be made acceptable to them it turned out to be a completely empty gesture without any genuine discussion.

A wiser and better informed politician than May would have realised her strategy of reconciling all parts of a very divided Tory party was not in the national interest and in any case was doomed to failure. Had she placed the national interest first and based on that negotiated the best possible deal she could for the country then she may well have succeeded in facing the ERG down with, if necessary, support from the Labour party.

You can draw a pretty straight line from her failure to even attempt any of that between 2016 & 2019 to the current utter chaos we find ourselves in today

May's deal was described on a Lib Dem podcast with Mark Pack as the 'best possible deal anybody could reasonably expect'. and that was a fair analysis. It was a soft Brexit that ticked the boxes for saying we'd left the EU while leaving us in the Customs Union by way of the NI protocol backstop indefinitely according to the EU's will. 

You're just spouting the Labour line of the time, but as KG said, Corbyn had no real interest in mitigating Brexit either, being the guy who was out on the lawn the day after the referendum result calling for article 50 to be invoked immediately. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[A Load of Squit 5,110]

 

 

[A Load of Squit 5,110]

It's a sign of how bad things are that the Government are planning to give Dido Harding another job in the health sector and no-one has mentioned how stupid an idea this is.

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/health/baroness-dido-harding-who-is-the-new-chief-of-the-institute-replacing-public-health-england-and-what-will-the-national-health-body-do-2945831

Baroness Dido Harding has been appointed to run a new health body that will replace Public Health England (PHE).

 

Ms Harding is to become the interim executive chair of the new National Institute for Health Protection (NIHP), which will be responsible for preventing future outbreaks of infectious diseases.

[dylanisabaddog 4,844]

4 hours ago, Herman said:

Is Truss back to being accused of being a remainer yet? 

Whatever you'd like her to be..... 

[horsefly 4,273]

12 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

It's a sign of how bad things are that the Government are planning to give Dido Harding another job in the health sector and no-one has mentioned how stupid an idea this is.

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/health/baroness-dido-harding-who-is-the-new-chief-of-the-institute-replacing-public-health-england-and-what-will-the-national-health-body-do-2945831

Baroness Dido Harding has been appointed to run a new health body that will replace Public Health England (PHE).

 

Ms Harding is to become the interim executive chair of the new National Institute for Health Protection (NIHP), which will be responsible for preventing future outbreaks of infectious diseases.

F'ing hell! That's another £37bn down the drain then.

[Well b back 3,180]

4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

F'ing hell! That's another £37bn down the drain then.

Will we raise that from tax revenues or will we be borrowing it ?.

[TheGunnShow 5,905]

Not sure if everything's true here but if it is, then surely people need to know it?

Supertanskiii on Twitter: "Would you be surprised to discover Tory MPs were tipping off hedgefunders or tanking the economy on purpose? Those shorting the pound are linked to specific political decisions and specific MPs. This was what Brexit was about, read JRMs dads books. I say we arrest them. https://t.co/hqtG8NghFz" / Twitter

[Well b back 3,180]

Can Kasi not just keep his gob shut for a day. Details of his meeting with bankers below. As soon as the meeting finished the pound and the FTSE are back to tanking after the efforts by the BOE this morning.

The Treasury has confirmed that Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng met investment banks this morning and reiterated the government's "commitment to fiscal sustainability".

Kwarteng met representatives from Bank of America, JP Morgan, Standard Chartered, Citi, UBS, Morgan Stanley and Bloomberg earlier in an attempt to reassure City leaders amid market turmoil following Friday’s mini-budget.

According to a read-out of the meeting, published by the Treasury, Kwarteng said he was working closely with the Governor of the Bank of England and the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) ahead of delivering a new fiscal plan on 23 November.

Kwarteng also discussed with attendees "how last Friday’s growth plan will expand the supply side of the economy through tax incentives and reforms, helping to deliver greater opportunities and bear down on inflation."

[Van wink 2,994]

1 minute ago, Well b back said:

Can Kasi not just keep his gob shut for a day. Details of his meeting with bankers below. As soon as the meeting finished the pound and the FTSE are back to tanking after the efforts by the BOE this morning.

The Treasury has confirmed that Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng met investment banks this morning and reiterated the government's "commitment to fiscal sustainability".

Kwarteng met representatives from Bank of America, JP Morgan, Standard Chartered, Citi, UBS, Morgan Stanley and Bloomberg earlier in an attempt to reassure City leaders amid market turmoil following Friday’s mini-budget.

According to a read-out of the meeting, published by the Treasury, Kwarteng said he was working closely with the Governor of the Bank of England and the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) ahead of delivering a new fiscal plan on 23 November.

Kwarteng also discussed with attendees "how last Friday’s growth plan will expand the supply side of the economy through tax incentives and reforms, helping to deliver greater opportunities and bear down on inflation."

I'm afraid he is completely useless, in fact its worse than that!