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4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

 

What conditions ahead might the centre and left coalesce is far more interesting. I watched the piece on SC4 on Labour's view on independence and the election next week. Very illuminating to hear so many good contributions (all parties). It showed me debate can happen.

 

I regret using the Brexit example cos opening that debate is the last thing I am trying to do, I am just using it as an example to illustrate how in my view British Politics, when the chips are down, moves to party allegiance and peripheral bickering rather than uniting around a common cause.

I didnt see the debate you mention, pleased and heartened to hear that Welsh politicians were able to produce a good level of debate, it lifts my heart cos to be honest in my lifetime of observing Welsh Politics and working for a while within Welsh government, historically, apart from the odd individual, it has generally been devoid of much quality.

 

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5 hours ago, sonyc said:

At the risk of opening up Brexit again, it was a ridiculous thing to ask the public to choose in or out. We didn't know all the nuances, the potential outcomes, even if we had good foresight (though we had a view based on our own prejudices etc). It concealed far too much and was even manipulated as such through dark arts (imo) with huge exaggeration on both sides (at times). Then we had the 'will of the people' narrative once cracks were appearing in the enormity of the result. It would have killed parties to go against that (which indeed it did for the Liberals, who staked their whole claim on it). 

Agree that a second referendum alignment would have helped (but Corbyn never pushed for this...a big failure) yet again that would have been against the 'peoples' will'. The country was fair enough split 50/50 in the matter. Unity? Not a chance... I don't believe anyway.

What conditions ahead might the centre and left coalesce is far more interesting. I watched the piece on SC4 on Labour's view on independence and the election next week. Very illuminating to hear so many good contributions (all parties). It showed me debate can happen.

At present we have a dearth of serious debate, just a hollow sounding government that is:

(a) always seemingly in campaign mode, not governing (b) an annoying characteristic of defensiveness against all kinds of challenge

(c) empty grandstanding rhetoric.

The country needs better😐

 

Corbyn was always in a bit of a bind regarding the position to take on Brexit. He himself has always been Eurosceptic or anti EU, as were large swathes of the electorate in the working class constituencies that traditionally voted for his party. His problem was that the membership of the party he led was largely middle class pro EU, as was the Momentum group that was most responsible for putting him in power. He tried to balance the wants of both sides with Starmers plan and ended up doing neither.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course but the maths suggests he should have simply stuck to his original opinion regarding the EU and faced down those wanting to rejoin. Only around a third of constituencies voted to remain, a large number of which were up in Scotland which he had very little chance of winning anyway, whilst two thirds voted to leave including many of those areas which were staunchly Labour in the past. In my opinion alienating those voters by trying to appease those in his party wasn’t a wise move, and now those areas have voted Tory for the first time since before Thatcher it won’t be as big a deal to vote for them again in the future

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It's also worth remembering that at the time of the referendum and in the months after, both Labour and Tory party had significant number of rebels and dissenters within their respective parties, and as Fen points out the Labour leader was a long time Eurosceptic and at odds with the majority view of his party. But the Tories under Boris's leadership carried out a purge of its rebels before the 2019 election and removed that fissure line within the Tory party. Labour has not yet gone through this process and as time goes on it seems less likely that Starmer will want to remove the rebel elements from his party. Admittedly his is a much harder task as any move he makes will result in membership losses but unless he does the Labour party will never align with enough of the electorate to gain power.

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3 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

 

Breaking News:

As soon as a Tory donor offers Johnson a free holiday he'll declare foreign travel OK.

 

Well, the location concerned will certainly find itself on the green list.

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This Harris article struck a chord for me last night reading (after the last slightly underwhelming LoD episode)... why some of the current crop of government ministers (and of course Johnson) are so alien to the likes of me and no doubt, most of the country. Different rules for some. I shouldn't be shocked to read this at my age and with some life experience but it still surprises.

I read a while ago that Cameron was about 27 years of age before he ever travelled anywhere other than first class! I have travelled first class once in my life (and that was paid for by work).

How can they really understand the lives of folk with such a world view of "shamelessness" that Okwonga speaks of? How can you honestly talk about 'levelling up'? Or the 'Big Society'. To me these terms strike me like pure sound bites,  the type that an advertising agency might employ, one that wants you to believe the opposite of what is really going on. 

Harris is a good news hound and source. Whole article here with brief extract below.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/02/westminster-eton-schoolboys-boris-johnson-david-cameron?

 

As Johnson’s lonely rise to the top seems to prove, the trick is not to be clubbable, but to achieve power and influence as a means of then acquiring friends and admirers. And as you do so, rules and conventions – along with consistency – can be casually pushed aside. “Shamelessness is the superpower of a certain section of the English upper classes,” Okwonga writes. “They don’t learn shamelessness at Eton, but this is where they perfect it.”

In Cameron’s case, the mindset he imbibed at school was evident in his cruel pursuit of austerity for political ends and blithe promises that were quickly forgotten. He pledged “no more tiresome, meddlesome, top-down restructures”

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31 minutes ago, sonyc said:

This Harris article struck a chord for me last night reading (after the last slightly underwhelming LoD episode)... why some of the current crop of government ministers (and of course Johnson) are so alien to the likes of me and no doubt, most of the country. Different rules for some. 

I read a while ago that Cameron was about 27 years of age before he ever travelled anywhere other than first class! I have travelled first class once in my life (and that was paid for by work).

I think this will be the coordinated attack line for a while now.  Try to put a tribal wedge between the Conservative party and the 'Red wall' voter.

People will accept a lot of ill behaviour from members of 'their tribe' so it makes sense to put the wedge in.   That's why the John Lewis thing was potentially so damaging.

Question is, whilst labour can disaffect these voters can it attract them after?  At some point it will have to put  positive message forward and not score any own goals.

 

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3 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Question is, whilst labour can disaffect these voters can it attract them after?  At some point it will have to put  positive message forward and not score any own goals.

 

I think quite of few of us would see a party that is not as openly and persistently corrupt as the current Government nor disregards the rule of law as the current Government does would be positive message enough. Add in the possibility that they have every chance of being at least slightly more competent than the most incompetent government would be another positive.

But strangely perhaps, given that our antiquated and dysfunctional electoral system effectively delivers a two party state, many of us would also like to break that mould and vote for an alternative that is neither Tweedledum party or the Tweedledee party.

We won't break the mould of course, sadly I think it is already too late for that to happen, but at least we can have a clear conscience that we haven't voted to send the UK into even further decline.

In any case this week's election are irrelevant other than in Scotland - hopefully the SNP and the Greens will do the job up there and open up the possibility of an escape route from 21st century England 😀

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4 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I think this will be the coordinated attack line for a while now.  Try to put a tribal wedge between the Conservative party and the 'Red wall' voter.

People will accept a lot of ill behaviour from members of 'their tribe' so it makes sense to put the wedge in.   That's why the John Lewis thing was potentially so damaging.

Question is, whilst labour can disaffect these voters can it attract them after?  At some point it will have to put  positive message forward and not score any own goals.

 

This might resonate with you Barbe? Article today with a critique of Labour and asking a similar question to you. I tend to agree with you but also with @Creative Midfielder and his follow up post about Tweedledum and Tweedledee plus the comments on competence.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/03/labours-lost-voters-clamour-belonging?

 

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51 minutes ago, sonyc said:

This might resonate with you Barbe? Article today with a critique of Labour and asking a similar question to you. I tend to agree with you but also with @Creative Midfielder and his follow up post about Tweedledum and Tweedledee plus the comments on competence.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/03/labours-lost-voters-clamour-belonging?

 

Pretty much.  That notion of 'belonging' is powerful and its subjective and not objective

 

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I think many people who may be inclined to vote Labour because of the damage the Tories are doing may well ignore much of the academic debate and just want someone or something that will prioritise them.

This is one of the reasons Labour lost so badly and why Brexit happened. Too many Labour voters saw immigration as a problem. And rhetoric was not they wanted. They just wanted someone to tell them their opinion mattered.

That was Corbyn's problem. He turned away from much of the grass roots of Labour voters.

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3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

I think many people who may be inclined to vote Labour because of the damage the Tories are doing may well ignore much of the academic debate and just want someone or something that will prioritise them.

This is one of the reasons Labour lost so badly and why Brexit happened. Too many Labour voters saw immigration as a problem. And rhetoric was not they wanted. They just wanted someone to tell them their opinion mattered.

That was Corbyn's problem. He turned away from much of the grass roots of Labour voters.

Corbyn in my mind only ever truly represented a very narrow set of voters - only say 10% of the electorate. He was generally unelectable by any majority and derided & laughed at by most.

His greatest weakness was his 'pacifism' and being unable to say boo to a goose - i.e. Skripal. Too cosy in London. Oddly his actual economic polices were not of themselves unpopular (and Sunak has now spent far far more). Frankly he was forever stuck in a 1970s London 'left' student politics mind-set and was easy picking for the Tories. Always a protester never in power. Brexit I think only happened because Corbyn was lack-lustre and then the hard Brexit only because idiotic tribal politics stopped Corbyn and others from working together against the greater threat. Total self-centred idiots.

Edited by Yellow Fever
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Seems like it has all gone quite on the Tory opinion polls quoters on here. Could this be in some way because Johnson has pissed his Vacination bounce lead up the wall in the same manner as he did the Brexit bounce?

Edited by BigFish
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16 hours ago, sonyc said:

This might resonate with you Barbe? Article today with a critique of Labour and asking a similar question to you. I tend to agree with you but also with @Creative Midfielder and his follow up post about Tweedledum and Tweedledee plus the comments on competence.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/03/labours-lost-voters-clamour-belonging?

 

Really good piece and I think it speaks to something Labour's more middle class voters struggle to understand. The kind of manual, industrial work people used to do in the 70's has been replaced with jobs that are much more transient and much less satisfying. I come from a family where I'm certainly middle class but one side of the family is certainly working class- my uncle and cousin are both carpenters who love their jobs, take pride in their work and feel a real sense of achievement when they've successfully finished a project. Can working in an Amazon warehouse or a call center provide the same sense of fulfilment and belonging? I'd guess not.

Also the line about how some Labour voters have a massive panic attack the second the party mentions patriotism as if appealing to peoples sense of national pride and unity is just one step away from ****-ism rings far too true.

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14 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

New Tory policy

Its only sleaze if you are found out

Well sadly for them (but good news for the rest of us 😀) not only are they totally incompetent at running the country, they're equally incompetent at keeping their sleaze and corruption hidden - they really are the thickest bunch of scumbags we ever seen in government.

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4 hours ago, king canary said:

Really good piece and I think it speaks to something Labour's more middle class voters struggle to understand. The kind of manual, industrial work people used to do in the 70's has been replaced with jobs that are much more transient and much less satisfying. I come from a family where I'm certainly middle class but one side of the family is certainly working class- my uncle and cousin are both carpenters who love their jobs, take pride in their work and feel a real sense of achievement when they've successfully finished a project. Can working in an Amazon warehouse or a call center provide the same sense of fulfilment and belonging? I'd guess not.

Also the line about how some Labour voters have a massive panic attack the second the party mentions patriotism as if appealing to peoples sense of national pride and unity is just one step away from ****-ism rings far too true.

To follow on from this, there was a good piece by Tanya Gold on Unherd - https://unherd.com/2021/05/how-the-left-lost-hartlepool/

This line stood out to me... 

Labour is two parties now, co-existing uneasily, which is why Keir Starmer is pale with fretting: pro-Remain London and the other affluent cities, and places like this. The two despise each other, but only one side will admit to it.

This is the challenge facing Labour and it feels to me like the 'broad church' has never been further apart. 

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https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boris-johnson-accused-of-cover-up-after-refusing-to-deny-he-asked-donor-to-fund-nanny/ar-BB1gkHyu?ocid=msedgntp

Boris Johnson's official spokesman has repeatedly refused to deny a Tory donor was asked to fund a nanny for the PM's baby son.

Downing Street stonewalled questions in the first official briefing since the bizarre allegations emerged - marking a new twist in the "cash for curtains" saga over the revamp of Mr Johnson's Downing Street flat.

The nanny claims were reported by the Sunday Times, which claimed the twice-divorced PM is struggling to survive on his £157,372-a-year salary.

An unnamed donor is said to have been approached and asked if they would help fund childcare for Wilfred, Mr Johnson's son with fiancee Carrie Symonds.

The benefactor is alleged to have moaned to an MP: "I don't mind paying for leaflets but I resent being asked to pay to literally wipe the Prime Minister's baby's bottom."

Yesterday the PM twice refused to deny the claims - and today No10 refused to deny them several more times.

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1 hour ago, horsefly said:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boris-johnson-accused-of-cover-up-after-refusing-to-deny-he-asked-donor-to-fund-nanny/ar-BB1gkHyu?ocid=msedgntp

Boris Johnson's official spokesman has repeatedly refused to deny a Tory donor was asked to fund a nanny for the PM's baby son.

Downing Street stonewalled questions in the first official briefing since the bizarre allegations emerged - marking a new twist in the "cash for curtains" saga over the revamp of Mr Johnson's Downing Street flat.

The nanny claims were reported by the Sunday Times, which claimed the twice-divorced PM is struggling to survive on his £157,372-a-year salary.

An unnamed donor is said to have been approached and asked if they would help fund childcare for Wilfred, Mr Johnson's son with fiancee Carrie Symonds.

The benefactor is alleged to have moaned to an MP: "I don't mind paying for leaflets but I resent being asked to pay to literally wipe the Prime Minister's baby's bottom."

Yesterday the PM twice refused to deny the claims - and today No10 refused to deny them several more times.

What the hell does Princess Nut Nut want a Nanny for?

And isn't it ironic, if true, that Boris says he can't manage on £3K a week.

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

To follow on from this, there was a good piece by Tanya Gold on Unherd - https://unherd.com/2021/05/how-the-left-lost-hartlepool/

This line stood out to me... 

Labour is two parties now, co-existing uneasily, which is why Keir Starmer is pale with fretting: pro-Remain London and the other affluent cities, and places like this. The two despise each other, but only one side will admit to it.

This is the challenge facing Labour and it feels to me like the 'broad church' has never been further apart. 

Quite agree, the metropolitan elite has for many years been a problem for Labour but now we have nutters like Billy that post intolerant lefty ideological views on here, abusive and accusational,  which are miles away from most of us who supported Labour as a real and practical alternative to Tory rule, becoming a mouthpiece for Labour which turns most off. And yet many follow like sheep and expect like lambs to the slaughter to see inroads into the Tory majority. Its a shocking state of affairs.

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3 hours ago, king canary said:

To follow on from this, there was a good piece by Tanya Gold on Unherd - https://unherd.com/2021/05/how-the-left-lost-hartlepool/

This line stood out to me... 

Labour is two parties now, co-existing uneasily, which is why Keir Starmer is pale with fretting: pro-Remain London and the other affluent cities, and places like this. The two despise each other, but only one side will admit to it.

This is the challenge facing Labour and it feels to me like the 'broad church' has never been further apart. 

think this sums it up well KC...

 

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41 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Quite agree, the metropolitan elite has for many years been a problem for Labour but now we have nutters like Billy that post intolerant lefty ideological views on here, abusive and accusational,  which are miles away from most of us who supported Labour as a real and practical alternative to Tory rule, becoming a mouthpiece for Labour which turns most off. And yet many follow like sheep and expect like lambs to the slaughter to see inroads into the Tory majority. Its a shocking state of affairs.

People tend to get frustrated because they, quite rightly, point out that the Tories are also largely metropolitan elites. However they generally don't claim to not be or claim that they represent the interests of ordinary working people.

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3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

think this sums it up well KC...

 

Indeed- Harris is an insightful journalist and one of the few who actually gets outside of his bubble to understand what people really think & feel. 

The issue with Labour and the working classes for me echoes the issues the Democratic Party in the US are having with some voters from the BAME community at the moment- there has been a lazy thought process that suggests they are obviously the people best positioned to help those communities and thus they should just vote for them whatever. People are tired of that. 

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5 minutes ago, king canary said:

Indeed- Harris is an insightful journalist and one of the few who actually gets outside of his bubble to understand what people really think & feel. 

The issue with Labour and the working classes for me echoes the issues the Democratic Party in the US are having with some voters from the BAME community at the moment- there has been a lazy thought process that suggests they are obviously the people best positioned to help those communities and thus they should just vote for them whatever. People are tired of that. 

Yes, agree here. There is a real issue on defining their identity - for Labour.

I see it so much locally - with really grounded Labour supporters who really get involved at grassroots level right in their communities. They actively encourage the 'working class voice'. And they do it year after year after year. It's formidable. 

Yet, there is an elitist kind of 'leftie' (for want of a better term) as you've outlined. How does the party play to provincial and metropolitan?

 

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22 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Yes, agree here. There is a real issue on defining their identity - for Labour.

I see it so much locally - with really grounded Labour supporters who really get involved at grassroots level right in their communities. They actively encourage the 'working class voice'. And they do it year after year after year. It's formidable. 

Yet, there is an elitist kind of 'leftie' (for want of a better term) as you've outlined. How does the party play to provincial and metropolitan?

 

There may well come a time when it becomes siht or bust. Why dilute your beliefs or policies to be popular. The Greens don't.

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8 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

There may well come a time when it becomes siht or bust. Why dilute your beliefs or policies to be popular. The Greens don't.

its already bust KG, the time is now

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50 minutes ago, king canary said:

People tend to get frustrated because they, quite rightly, point out that the Tories are also largely metropolitan elites. However they generally don't claim to not be or claim that they represent the interests of ordinary working people.

Really?? That's precisely what Thatcher claimed (and what the "buy your council home" policy was aimed to convince). And it's precisely what Johnson claimed regarding his support for brexit (time and again in the last election campaign he claimed the Tory Party to be the Party of the working classes). As for your earlier claim that Labour is now divided between a middle-class, metropolitan, university educated group, and an ordinary working class industrial group, that has always been the case throughout its history.

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23 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

There may well come a time when it becomes siht or bust. Why dilute your beliefs or policies to be popular. The Greens don't.

Perfectly ok if you are happy just to be a protest voice and some nice environment friendly policies that everyone agrees would make the world a nicer place. I think millions will go along with that until it starts getting chilly and nothing happens when they flick the light switch and the heating doesn't come on. The west got rich and comfortable because of high energy useage but who knows, in future years there may be a technical fix coming down the line but I'm glad I won't have to count on it.

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