Winning a Penalty

[Yellow Wal 314]

Perhaps the biggest improvement would be to do as cricket and rugby does by having ex-players as officials. That extra bit of knowledge of the game, from a player's point of view and not just from a rule book point of view, could be invaluable.

[ricardo 7,347]

1 hour ago, Canary dwarf said:

I disagree the contact was so minimal , and he threw himself down , as someone else just posted you would have 4 or 5 pens every game at this rate .😃

Only if your defenders are stupid enough to keep clattering people from behind. Yesterday was unecessary and  naive in the extreme

Edited September 20, 2020 by ricardo

[sgncfc 1,221]

5 hours ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

I get sick of hearing how players win penalties, its either a penalty or its not. 

It's now become an art that clearly some teams clearly coach, yesterday's was ridiculous because the player is getting nowhere near the ball as it's a good 3 or 4 foot over his head. 

It reminds me of the ones that Man Utd got at Carrow Road when it hit Cantwell, the ball is clearly clearing the crossbar so wouldn't have gone in so how did hitting Cantwell arm affect the play, it didn't. 

Football for the purest is long since dead and its become embarrassing. 

We were coached to do this 40 years ago, it's nothing new. "winning" fouls in dangerous areas is a standard tactic - just stopping and waiting for the challenge is so easy, mainly because most players are not very bright. It isn't really the refs fault - he gives what he sees and in this case he saw Skipp raise his hands, which is a "do not do" from the age of about 8. If he hadn't done that the ref wouldn't have given the pen.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

So now the law on handball has taken accidental away and defined as a line from the armpit, players will now start kicking balls against defenders arms when there is no other option.

I really hate the win at all costs attitude.

[horsefly 4,287]

In the spirit of broadening the debate about rule changes regarding penalties I've often wondered whether football should follow the example of rugby and allow the ref to award a penalty goal. Where an act of foul play has prevented a "certain" goal (handling on the goal line is the most obvious example) the ref ought to be allowed to award the goal. It's always seemed egregious to me that the defending team in such instances can benefit from such play if the subsequent penalty is missed (I have vague memories of Suarez doing this in the last moments of a world cup game. I'm sure someone here will have better recall of this than I).

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

38 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

We were coached to do this 40 years ago, it's nothing new. "winning" fouls in dangerous areas is a standard tactic - just stopping and waiting for the challenge is so easy, mainly because most players are not very bright. It isn't really the refs fault - he gives what he sees and in this case he saw Skipp raise his hands, which is a "do not do" from the age of about 8. If he hadn't done that the ref wouldn't have given the pen.

Don't dispute that it's been happening for years as I remember Andy Johnson of Palace/Birmingham fame being famous for throwing himself on the floor every time he got in the box, but it's getting ridiculous now. 

With technology as it is these cheats need to be sorted or it will be the cancer that destroys football. 

They use VAR to check for real errors but maybe its about time they used it to also punish those that cheat. 

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Rich T The Biscuit

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

2 hours ago, ricardo said:

If you clatter into someone from behind you are asking for the ref to make a decision. A stupid tackle and got what it deserved.

Clatter?!

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

12 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Clatter?!

He was third in queue behind Blatter.

[HazzaJet 252]

From what I’ve experienced through playing and watching football, this is my answer on how to win spot-kicks:
 

If an opponent tries to get to a player running in the box with the ball the possessor should try and make a pass as soon as the opponent’s boot comes in to make the challenge, so they make no contact with the ball and make a late challenge, as if the tackler brings the player down and a team mate doesn’t win possession from the pass there will be no advantage and it will be a foul.

With corners and free kicks the attackers should wait until the ball is played, and then if there is an attacker who has a high chance of receiving the cross but is goal of the ball or marked by an opponent, they should try and lose their marker and get behind the ball (as of course for a player to score they need to be behind the ball and have a gap between them and the goal mouth). Attackers trying to lose their markers in corners and free kicks will hassle the defence, and cause the markers to follow them. If an attacker gets in a good position for receiving the ball it may lure the following marker into holding the attacker back, and if the attacker had a good chance of winning the ball or is unable to make decent contact with the ball (only able to tap the ball due to being held/pushed back) the attacker will have been fouled. If the attacker was nowhere near the ball though eg cross from the right, attacker to the right makes a header, attacker far left is denied access to the ball by defender holding them back it won’t be a foul as it wasn’t a goal scoring opportunity for the attacker.

It’s just I play football and twice in my career I’ve been fouled in the box. The first time I ran into the box with the ball, and when the tackler came in, I’d just tapped the ball forwards so they got nothing of it and just tripped me up, the second time I rose to a corner kick, but just as I’d jumped I made very little contact with the ball as a defender pushed me backwards, denying me a chance to make a proper header and causing me to land on my back

Edited September 20, 2020 by HazzaJet

[Crabbycanary3 994]

Yesterday's Ref is going to award one hell of a lot of penalties this season, if that is  the marker set. 

It wasn't a clatter nor a push, it was 'touching'. The Preston player made a mini leap and went straight down, and not forward, which what would have happened if he had been pushed/clattered.

 

On the subject of penalties, the grumbles are already starting in the Prem with the Southampton penalty today, where a ball came off a defenders foot and hit his team mates hand, who was standing next to him.  

Edited September 20, 2020 by Crabbycanary3

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

3 hours ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

Yesterday's Ref is going to award one hell of a lot of penalties this season, if that is  the marker set. 

It wasn't a clatter nor a push, it was 'touching'. The Preston player made a mini leap and went straight down, and not forward, which what would have happened if he had been pushed/clattered.

 

On the subject of penalties, the grumbles are already starting in the Prem with the Southampton penalty today, where a ball came off a defenders foot and hit his team mates hand, who was standing next to him.  

Absolutely ludicrous 🤦🏻‍♂️

Really don't understand the need to change what was there before, ie if the hand or arm makes a movement towards the ball; if it's by the side but not moving or bounces up and hits the hand or arm or ricochet on to a team mate then there is no intent. 

Every player might aswell now just aim for arms in the box 🤷‍♂️

 

[shefcanary 2,385]

Interesting debate here.  But what really gets me is that 5 seconds before a corner is taken and the wrestling that takes place.  If Schipp's was a penalty, why is there never a penalty for virtually every corner.  Inconsistency of rule application is the problem.

Parma also has focused on Schipp losing his man.  Agree this happened and once again more evidence that we lack a true defensive coach - when oh when will Webber give Farke some help here.  It's his 4th season now, and still no sign of any real organisation defensively.

[FenwayFrank 2,456]

Funny how it was ok for Chris Brown to push the defender out of the way so he could score his goal, if it had been the other way round it would have been a pen

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Each season, Mike Riley gives referees advice on not only new or amended laws but also the interpretation.

It seems he may be advising to err on the side of awarding.

Surely, the interpretation must be beyond reasonable doubt where VAR is not available.

[Ivorh 2]

I’m a Preston supporter that lives down here on the Norfolk coast.  I have been down here for 27 years now and I used to go to quite a lot of City’s home games (I like football and if I cannot get to see PNE play then I’d go and watch Norwich at home.

Now I have found this thread to be most interesting and decided that either most of you are fairly recent City supporters or have very short memories or are hypocrites.  I’m glad at least one of you remembers Grant Holt platform City.  All that was needed was for him to be in the penalty area or just outside of it and for some to touch him from behind and he would go down like he had been shot.

I remember going to watch one game, I was behind the riverside goals, and City had a corner.  Big Grant was up in the box as expected, the cross came in, it was headed back to the corner taker and as he crossed the ball Holt backed into the oppositions defender and as soon as he felt a touch he went down and a penalty was awarded yet it was Holt who had backed into the defender.

I loved watching Big Grant and the way he won you free kicks and penalties, I remember saying to my City supporting friend who I used to go on games with and I said ‘ all you have to do is blow on Holt and he goes down and a foul is given’ his reply was ‘yes, great isn’t it!’

Yes it was a soft penalty but both the SKY reporter and Radio Norfolk commentators said it was definitely a penalty.

You cannot have it both ways, great when it goes your way but shouldn’t be allowed and cry when it goes against you.

All the best for the rest of the season except when you play us at Deepdale at Easter, I have chosen you to go up as champions, but to do anything this season you need to get your defence sorted otherwise you will concede more goals and drop more points than you should.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

14 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

It is disappointing that the referees aren't good enough to see what you and I saw. Sometimes I wonder if they understand the game at all. I accept that it is difficult to spot someone hanging their leg out to tangle with an opposition player but the one yesterday was absolutely blatant. Almost as blatant as when Grant Holt got an Ipswich player sent off a few years ago. Just slow down or stop and let the opponent run in the back of you. 

The most disappointing thing is that even with VAR they regularly failed to spot it. On the subject of VAR, the Manchester United game was held up for ages yesterday while they looked at a perfectly innocent collision in the penalty area. Gary Neville did his best to be polite but his thoughts made me wonder if the VAR people should have an ex professional with them to explain what has actually happened. 

You make a valid point but these officials should know what is intentional and / or what is evident cheating.   They have no common sense and have fairness Has been taken out of the game.... and ruined it for me.   Some of the decisions are just ridiculous now.    

[Crabbycanary3 994]

The officials are robots and have to abide by the 'rules' and their masters. Until someone with some balls gets a grip of this (can't see it anytime soon) and changes the thinking/rules/application of, then fans all around the World will face this every week. It was our turn on Saturday. The powers that be are weak, ruled by money and lack integrity for the overall good of the game. I used to love football, but this is one example of why I am increasingly non plussed , about the modern game. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

12 hours ago, Ivorh said:

I’m a Preston supporter that lives down here on the Norfolk coast.  I have been down here for 27 years now and I used to go to quite a lot of City’s home games (I like football and if I cannot get to see PNE play then I’d go and watch Norwich at home.

Now I have found this thread to be most interesting and decided that either most of you are fairly recent City supporters or have very short memories or are hypocrites.  I’m glad at least one of you remembers Grant Holt platform City.  All that was needed was for him to be in the penalty area or just outside of it and for some to touch him from behind and he would go down like he had been shot.

I remember going to watch one game, I was behind the riverside goals, and City had a corner.  Big Grant was up in the box as expected, the cross came in, it was headed back to the corner taker and as he crossed the ball Holt backed into the oppositions defender and as soon as he felt a touch he went down and a penalty was awarded yet it was Holt who had backed into the defender.

I loved watching Big Grant and the way he won you free kicks and penalties, I remember saying to my City supporting friend who I used to go on games with and I said ‘ all you have to do is blow on Holt and he goes down and a foul is given’ his reply was ‘yes, great isn’t it!’

Yes it was a soft penalty but both the SKY reporter and Radio Norfolk commentators said it was definitely a penalty.

You cannot have it both ways, great when it goes your way but shouldn’t be allowed and cry when it goes against you.

All the best for the rest of the season except when you play us at Deepdale at Easter, I have chosen you to go up as champions, but to do anything this season you need to get your defence sorted otherwise you will concede more goals and drop more points than you should.

Thanks for the post.

I have watched it back several times and just don't think its a pen, I'm sorry but I honestly wouldn't have given a **** if we didn't win a pen in the other box for the same thing! I also doubt the commentators would've said it was a definite pen if it wasn't given.

I don't think its hypocritical to want this type of behaviour ripped out of the game just because one of our own players does or has done it in the past, of course they have.

Unfortunately at the moment the rules are set up in a way which allows the players to take advantage of them. I don't like or encourage our players to do it but its the nature of the game now, it would be unwise and naïve for us not to do similar to an extent because there are no consequences and literally every other team does it.

That said, some fans are probably happy to see us do it because they have all too familiar memories of 'that' horrible 0-1 Middlesbrough home defeat a few years ago with Patrick Bamford spending the last 30 minutes on the floor (or other game). Then we go to Sheff United and pull off similar gamesmanship in a 0-1 win and everyone is happy because we remember having one stuck over on us before.

What I would like to see if the problem fixed at a higher level, introducing consequences and harsh rules would surely go a long way in changing the culture completely. Unfortunately football has to be the most unsporting and dishonest sport on the planet in its current state!

Good luck for the season and glad to see Alex Neil still setting you guys up really well, looked a good side in that first half!

[Ivorh 2]

6 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Thanks for the post.

I have watched it back several times and just don't think its a pen, I'm sorry but I honestly wouldn't have given a **** if we didn't win a pen in the other box for the same thing! I also doubt the commentators would've said it was a definite pen if it wasn't given.

I don't think its hypocritical to want this type of behaviour ripped out of the game just because one of our own players does or has done it in the past, of course they have.

Unfortunately at the moment the rules are set up in a way which allows the players to take advantage of them. I don't like or encourage our players to do it but its the nature of the game now, it would be unwise and naïve for us not to do similar to an extent because there are no consequences and literally every other team does it.

That said, some fans are probably happy to see us do it because they have all too familiar memories of 'that' horrible 0-1 Middlesbrough home defeat a few years ago with Patrick Bamford spending the last 30 minutes on the floor (or other game). Then we go to Sheff United and pull off similar gamesmanship in a 0-1 win and everyone is happy because we remember having one stuck over on us before.

What I would like to see if the problem fixed at a higher level, introducing consequences and harsh rules would surely go a long way in changing the culture completely. Unfortunately football has to be the most unsporting and dishonest sport on the planet in its current state!

Good luck for the season and glad to see Alex Neil still setting you guys up really well, looked a good side in that first half!

Many thanks for your reply Hank, I totally agree with you on most of your post i.e. they examples you give are I believe after Holt had left Carrow Road but I could be wrong.  Just like the current handball rules (what was wrong with hand to ball and not ball to hand being handball) needs changing back and diving needs harsher penalties (pardon the pun) with either very high fines or 2 game bans.

I also think AN is doing a great job for us especially our billionaire owner will not back him by providing decent money for the players AN wants to bring in.  AN has only asked for £4-5 million this summer but so far to no avail.  So far we haven’t made any signings permanent or loans and our record transfer buy is still David Healy for £1.8 million back in January 2001 after being on loan for us at the end of December 2000

[GenerationA47 747]

12 hours ago, Ivorh said:

 

Welcome to the board..dare I suggest a model for how an opposition fan can come on here to engage in debate, even criticism , without coming across like a gorilla beating its stupid chest (mentioning no names... Leeds). Well done to your team for the positive performance at the weekend and indeed in general last season.

 

What I would say is although probably all fans welcomed the goals from pens/ free kicks that  Holty ‘won’ in that way - equally most wouldn’t have complained if the refs ignored his antics rather than rewarding them. Assuming other teams’ persistently naughty boys  were treated the same.  After all, he, we & the other teams & their fans knew what he was up to.
 

It is only the refs who are fooled , or rather allow themselves to be, because of what must obviously be an edict favouring the attacking player.

 

 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

18 minutes ago, Ivorh said:

Many thanks for your reply Hank, I totally agree with you on most of your post i.e. they examples you give are I believe after Holt had left Carrow Road but I could be wrong.  Just like the current handball rules (what was wrong with hand to ball and not ball to hand being handball) needs changing back and diving needs harsher penalties (pardon the pun) with either very high fines or 2 game bans.

I also think AN is doing a great job for us especially our billionaire owner will not back him by providing decent money for the players AN wants to bring in.  AN has only asked for £4-5 million this summer but so far to no avail.  So far we haven’t made any signings permanent or loans and our record transfer buy is still David Healy for £1.8 million back in January 2001 after being on loan for us at the end of December 2000

Yep those examples were post Holty - the point was that it could be any game, those are the stand outs in recent memory but every fan will feel they have been wronged at some point by poor gamesmanship - and it is easier to justify your own team doing it when fuelled by that kind of spite!

Wow. Billionaire owners hey - who needs 'em?

£1.8m record transfer in 2001.. really puts into perspective how well AN is doing then! Although the transfers under him for us were pretty poor - might not be a bad thing that he isn't given heaps to spend. Although I'm sure he's hopefully learned a thing or two since then.

I think where things went wrong for us was a stubbornness in man management style, once things started to take a bit of dip - it soon turned into a spiral. I remember we churned out a 3-0 win versus Derby at home amidst a really poor run of performances and results towards the end of his reign, and he made a post-match comment along the lines of 'I set them up the same way as I always do'. Felt like a dig at our players rather than trying to steady the ship and build some positivity!

Edited September 21, 2020 by Hank shoots Skyler

[Ivorh 2]

Hanks, 

I think AN has learnt a lot since he was in charge at Carrow Road.  Whenever I went to see City play under him AN never seemed to have a plan B, he now has even a plan C at times.  He also doesn’t always leave it too late to bring subs on like he used to do, an example was last season’s home game to Blackburn, we were 2-0 down after 25 mins so AN made 2 substitutions after their second went in and we ended up winning 3-2.

One thing that he still tends to do is chose his favourite player to start no matter how bad they are currently playing.

All the best

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 minutes ago, Ivorh said:

Hanks, 

I think AN has learnt a lot since he was in charge at Carrow Road.  Whenever I went to see City play under him AN never seemed to have a plan B, he now has even a plan C at times.  He also doesn’t always leave it too late to bring subs on like he used to do, an example was last season’s home game to Blackburn, we were 2-0 down after 25 mins so AN made 2 substitutions after their second went in and we ended up winning 3-2.

One thing that he still tends to do is chose his favourite player to start no matter how bad they are currently playing.

All the best

I don't think anyone doubts Grant was a tough chap to play against and fell over when he felt he would gain from it.

That doesn't mean the ref was right. And he wasn't on Saturday.

But I am less unhappy than I would be using VAR.

Keep playing as you did and you have a chance of the play offs.

Sinclair a good signing?

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 526]

16 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Each season, Mike Riley gives referees advice on not only new or amended laws but also the interpretation.

It seems he may be advising to err on the side of awarding.

Surely, the interpretation must be beyond reasonable doubt where VAR is not available.

Mike Riley was a rubbish Ref and I wouldn't trust him to sit the right way on a toilet seat (as Rowan Atkinson would say).

[Grumpy 122]

A very interesting topic.

I have felt for a long time that bad sportsmanship and unsporting behaviour is spoiling my enjoyment of the game.There has not been a game that I have seen for years both from this country and most definitely abroad,that hasn't had an instance of gamesmanship,cheating or simulation.

Unfortunately it is accepted as the norm by players and managers and is indeed orchestrated by them.

One of the most annoying examples of bad decision making and player cheating recently was a penalty awarded to Manchester United when Bruno Fernandez was awarded a penalty after he stood on a players ankle after a failed piece of trickery in the box feigning injury in order to gain the penalty.Even with the benefit of VAR the decision was upheld.

 

[Haus 259]

Back when i was playing (although not at this level admittedly 😂). Someone cheating like that would have been met with retaliation off the ball and out of sight.  (studs down someones legs or something) and their own team also wouldnt have stood for them cheating so blatantly 

[First Wazzock 902]

The implementation of the rules nowadays is a farce.

There seems to be no consistency in decision making. 

If you watched the Man U v Palace game, a penalty was given when the ball must have grazed the Man U players arm -  I thought it came off his chest. No one appealed for that decision.

Yet, if you watched Arsenal v West Ham, the ball clearly strikes the Arsenal defender on the hand/arm - nothing doing.

Where is the consistency? Admittedly I didn't think either should have been given - it was a lot simpler when it was judged by 'ball to hand' or 'hand to ball', the intent had to be there to play the ball.