Alex Tettey remains our best central midfielder

[Indy_Bones 441]

1 minute ago, paddycanary said:

Perhaps Tettey & Skipp to provide a solid screen would allow the full-backs and the front 4 a bit of freedom?

That still creates the same problem we have now Paddy, in that there's nobody in the middle to provide them with any sort of creativity or supply to work with.

You can't just rely on a full back to constantly bomb forwards, nor for attacking players to keep dropping back to make something happen, you need a degree of that coming from the middle of the park and two defensive mids doesn't give us that.

If all we want to do is park the bus and try not to concede (a'la Hughton ball), then Tettey and Skipp makes sense, if we actually want to win and give the opposition something to worry about we need someone in there to make things happen. We had this under Lambert with the likes of Fox, we had this previously with Crook as well, and more recently with Maddison (although more of a number 10 than central mid) and Vrancic/Leitner for the champs promotion season.

This side is crying out for someone in the middle who can pick out a through ball or a 40 yard pass across the field, what we don't need is more defenders or headless chickens in there.

[paddycanary 539]

3 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

That still creates the same problem we have now Paddy, in that there's nobody in the middle to provide them with any sort of creativity or supply to work with.

You can't just rely on a full back to constantly bomb forwards, nor for attacking players to keep dropping back to make something happen, you need a degree of that coming from the middle of the park and two defensive mids doesn't give us that.

If all we want to do is park the bus and try not to concede (a'la Hughton ball), then Tettey and Skipp makes sense, if we actually want to win and give the opposition something to worry about we need someone in there to make things happen. We had this under Lambert with the likes of Fox, we had this previously with Crook as well, and more recently with Maddison (although more of a number 10 than central mid) and Vrancic/Leitner for the champs promotion season.

This side is crying out for someone in the middle who can pick out a through ball or a 40 yard pass across the field, what we don't need is more defenders or headless chickens in there.

I take your point; that did cross my mind. However we're still trying to get the last few months out of the system. Being a bit more solid through the middle might give Cantwell & Placheta/Onel a bit of licence to press higher & support Pukki along with some freedom for Aarons & Quintilla without over-exposing the CBs. Skipp looks like he can pick a forward pass, & if he has the great man himself alongside to learn from, it might encourage a bit more inventiveness in the opposing half? It's also great to see Idah giving DF something to ponder, although coming off the bench is working well at the moment. I wonder who'll play if Emi & Dowell are out? And when we might get a look at Sorensen? 

My guess for the next day in the deeper two will be McLean & Skipp again, with one of Marco or Rupp in for Dowell. Of course Emi in if he's fit & available. The rest of the team almost picks itself.

[Aggy 755]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Assists are a totally meaningless stat.

Would agree totally meaningless when comparing players at different clubs but think there is some use when looking within the same team/squad. Still of course dependent on the striker converting the same proportion of chances created by two individuals, but if Cantwell ends the season with 10 assists and Buendia has 2, safe to say Cantwell was the more dangerous of the two . Whereas if De Bruyne gets 20 assists and Buendia gets 3, those figures could just as easily be the other way round if De Bruyne was playing for us and Buendia for Man City last year.

[Indy_Bones 441]

We could debate all day about whether or not assist stats have true relevance, but the fact is that in terms of provable data, Vrancic directly contributed more to our promotion than McLean did in terms of attacking threat and supply for our forwards.

As I've repeatedly said, I'll take a player with the vision, creativity, passing range and technical ability to get the best out of our forwards than I will a hard worker who covers a lot of ground but doesn't actually do much of real note in the process. This is somewhat fine if you're a defensive mid who's only job is to regain possession, break up play and then provide a short pass to a technically better teammate, it's not ok if we already have someone doing that and the other guy isn't handling the creative and passing side in exchange, nor is he providing the defensive duties the other player is.

Jack of all trades players are highly useful to a squad as a whole for their flexibility to cover positions on a short-term basis, but you don't play them for 46 games a season, you use them only when needed if your primary choices can't be selected for whatever reason.

[king canary 7,605]

39 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Would agree totally meaningless when comparing players at different clubs but think there is some use when looking within the same team/squad. Still of course dependent on the striker converting the same proportion of chances created by two individuals, but if Cantwell ends the season with 10 assists and Buendia has 2, safe to say Cantwell was the more dangerous of the two . Whereas if De Bruyne gets 20 assists and Buendia gets 3, those figures could just as easily be the other way round if De Bruyne was playing for us and Buendia for Man City last year.

Yeah, totally meaningless is maybe unfair but it is hugely overused. Far too often you'll see someone just list goals/assists as some sort of proof that player A is better than player B which is just so simplistic.

Personally I'd be much more interested in key passes/chances created than I would be assists. 

[hogesar 9,671]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

Assists are a totally meaningless stat.

You try arguing more detailed stats on here and see what sort of responses you get! 🤓

[CANARYKING 638]

2 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

That still creates the same problem we have now Paddy, in that there's nobody in the middle to provide them with any sort of creativity or supply to work with.

You can't just rely on a full back to constantly bomb forwards, nor for attacking players to keep dropping back to make something happen, you need a degree of that coming from the middle of the park and two defensive mids doesn't give us that.

If all we want to do is park the bus and try not to concede (a'la Hughton ball), then Tettey and Skipp makes sense, if we actually want to win and give the opposition something to worry about we need someone in there to make things happen. We had this under Lambert with the likes of Fox, we had this previously with Crook as well, and more recently with Maddison (although more of a number 10 than central mid) and Vrancic/Leitner for the champs promotion season.

This side is crying out for someone in the middle who can pick out a through ball or a 40 yard pass across the field, what we don't need is more defenders or headless chickens in there.

We had one, he is now playing for Cambridge

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,135]

Why are the people arguing against someone like Vrancic coming into the holding midfield role trying to make out that McLean isn't just as lightweight and useless defensively? Have you actually watched the guy play? He never tackles, loses most duels, gets dribbled round like he's a statue and is very easily shrugged off the ball and dispossessed when under pressure.

 

Yes you could level the exact same criticisms at players like Vrancic, Leitner or Trybull, but for me those three make up for it by being so much better on the ball in that position. McLean is an attacking midfielder, he should be playing in one of the 3 positions behind the striker if he's in the team. He had his best game for us in that role last year V Everton and played there a few times when he first came into the side in our promotion year. I don't understand why Farke is shoehorning him into that role. If he doesn't feel he has the options then he should be banging on Webbers door demanding he spends some money to get him a Gibson/Hugill type proven signing in CM. After being hung out to dry last year he's earned the right to demand signings if he needs them. 

 

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Vrancic or any of those being shipped out are the answer, I'm well aware of their limitations I watch every game, it's just that for me McLean is just as limited and I don't understand why he's being spoken about as more robust and physical than them because I really don't see it. His lack of presence and impact off the ball was actually the first thing that I noticed when I watched him play for Aberdeen before he signed here and it's stuck out to me ever since. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Christoph Stiepermann

[Six Pack 93]

6 hours ago, BigGrantsTash said:

If you’re going to come out with something as ignorant as claiming Daniel Farke is picking Mclean and Skipp over his fellow countrymen because he’s a xenophobe then at least find the courage to say it.

surely you're not ignorant enough to know the meaning of my post or that I didn't know Farke was german

[ged in the onion bag 855]

9 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Pretty sure most people are enjoying Quintilla beacause he is the first player we have had in some time who is able to cross a ball well

 

Not that Pukki is really one for headers (Lets be fair his against Preston was a fluke down to bad goalkeeping) but with Idah and Hugill having a fanatstic crosser is a good asset

Trouble is, due to his delivery, Quintilla might end up having to compete for a front three position (with some difficulty) if it becomes evident that he can’t defend!    

[Chelm Canary 404]

2 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

Vrancic directly contributed more to our promotion than McLean did in terms of attacking threat and supply for our forwards

In terms of protecting our defence and covering ground and forcing misplaced passes from opposition, there are no stats. 

This is where you struggle. 

[Chelm Canary 404]

Backroom staff will be looking at every thing. Every player is tracked at what they are doing for 90 minutes or less. 

Cutting out passes or hassling opposition until they lose the ball or do something silly is part of winning a match. 

[king canary 7,605]

10 hours ago, hogesar said:

You try arguing more detailed stats on here and see what sort of responses you get! 🤓

Oh believe me I know...

[YellaYellowYella 51]

On 19/09/2020 at 22:14, Jim Smith said:

Time and time again it has been proven by the statistics and the performances.

so quite why it’s so blindly accepted he should be on the bench whilst average champ teams pass through our midfield is a bit beyond me.

i really hoe Sorensen gets a chance soon because he looks good based on the very limited evidence so far but I worry that Farke has a blind spot in the CM position. Our front 5 will cause any teams problems so let’s give them a decent base to work off!

I would say Oli Skipp is a far better, all round player. Not taking anything away from Tettey though, as he's definitely my favourite Norweigan from Ghana ever. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

On 19/09/2020 at 22:29, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

I'd take a midfield of Tettey and Vrancic over the one we had today....I'd probably even have Trybull and Leitner

....yet our manager is insistant that we must be building a team round McLean

I'd take a thread that doesn't suggest Mario Vrancic is the answer to all our problems, but then we don't get what we want.

Tettey himself has said he wants his final season to be more of a watching and supporting brief. And Mario is liked by football fans who can't understand that he WILL NOT fit into the playing style that Farke is trying to bring in.

As much as I like him, McLean has played poorly vs Huddersfield and Preston (and for  Scotland) and I would definitely be replacing him for our next game. Sorenson and Skipp, maybe? 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Vrancic, for me, should be further forward with a McLean / Skipp combination (or Sorensen/Tettey or even Rupp for that matter - two more defensive midfielders anyway) behind him. A Pirlo role probably works better in a league that's not the Championship. As for McLean and what he provides, he's very much a box-to-box midfielder.

I'd also say that this is why we shouldn't have Placheta and Hernandez on at the same time unless we're really trying to force an equaliser with 20 to go - it makes the middle of the park far too open when we're not in possession. Placheta certainly knocked on the door though with that effort as suddenly longer balls down wings became a useful tactic. I'd think both Godfrey and Zimmermann should be pricking up their ears at that as both like that diagonal ball sent wide.

As for Tettey, he's good at staying in front of the defence and not being drawn out of position, but as others have said, he keeps it so simple that he doesn't screw up much, but often that kind of passing doesn't break presses. I agree with those who want to see Sorensen in there sooner rather than later.

[king canary 7,605]

2 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I'd take a thread that doesn't suggest Mario Vrancic is the answer to all our problems, but then we don't get what we want.

Tettey himself has said he wants his final season to be more of a watching and supporting brief. And Mario is liked by football fans who can't understand that he WILL NOT fit into the playing style that Farke is trying to bring in.

As much as I like him, McLean has played poorly vs Huddersfield and Preston (and for  Scotland) and I would definitely be replacing him for our next game. Sorenson and Skipp, maybe? 

I'd like to see that combo too but that is only based on what I've heard about Sorenson. 

[king canary 7,605]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Vrancic, for me, should be further forward with a McLean / Skipp combination (or Sorensen/Tettey or even Rupp for that matter - two more defensive midfielders anyway) behind him. A Pirlo role probably works better in a league that's not the Championship. As for McLean and what he provides, he's very much a box-to-box midfielder.

I'd also say that this is why we shouldn't have Placheta and Hernandez on at the same time unless we're really trying to force an equaliser with 20 to go - it makes the middle of the park far too open when we're not in possession. Placheta certainly knocked on the door though with that effort as suddenly longer balls down wings became a useful tactic. I'd think both Godfrey and Zimmermann should be pricking up their ears at that as both like that diagonal ball sent wide.

As for Tettey, he's good at staying in front of the defence and not being drawn out of position, but as others have said, he keeps it so simple that he doesn't screw up much, but often that kind of passing doesn't break presses. I agree with those who want to see Sorensen in there sooner rather than later.

Personally I don't like Vrancic in that further forward role- his biggest asset is the range of passing he provides, playing him high up the pitch really limits that and I don't think he's dynamic enough to play the short give and go passes we need to around the penalty box. 

Also, while it is early days, Placheta looks better than Hernandez to me. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

12 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

Jack of all trades players are highly useful to a squad as a whole for their flexibility to cover positions on a short-term basis, but you don't play them for 46 games a season, you use them only when needed if your primary choices can't be selected for whatever reason.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

In the system which Farke plays, the midfield two need to be able to defend and transition the ball into attack. Farke wants all his players to be able to play with the ball at their feet, but in particular the central midfield two need to have good stamina, good work rate, good vision and an ability to pass. In short, they need to be "jack of all trades".

It's them that has to cover for the marauding full backs. It's them that has to get the ball quickly to the no. 10, who in turn passes to the flanks or to where the two wider forwards are normally lurking. It's also them that covers for any other player who finds themselves out of position. Saturday for instance, Skipp covered for Godfrey as he got forward.

Vrancic absolutely has great vision and an ability to pass. He also has the brucie bonus that he offers an additional scoring thrreat. He has none of these other attributes. It's not a surprise to me to hear that Farke considers him a no. 10. I wonder if, should Todd Cantwell or Emi Buendia move on, we may see Vrancic start reappearing in squads yet, as their natural replacements.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Terminally Yellow

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

Just now, king canary said:

Also, while it is early days, Placheta looks better than Hernandez to me. 

I was very impressed by Placheta on Saturday. I watched him quite a bit in the second half. He reminds me a bit of Hucks. Takes on and beats players. 

Looking forward to seeing more of him. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

Personally I don't like Vrancic in that further forward role- his biggest asset is the range of passing he provides, playing him high up the pitch really limits that and I don't think he's dynamic enough to play the short give and go passes we need to around the penalty box. 

Also, while it is early days, Placheta looks better than Hernandez to me. 

It doesn't have to be up in the hole but I see the point. I'd have Vrancic dead centre - make it a deeper midfield three with two more defensive ones around him and leave out the guy in the hole. At that point I'd be playing without wingers and going 4-3-2-1 with the full-backs encouraged to go up and provide width instead.

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

On 20/09/2020 at 09:51, Rich T The Biscuit said:

The one midfield player that impressed me yesterday and has always looked liked the driving force behind Preston is Alan Browne

That's the kind of player we should have looked to pick up. 

 

He took my eye, that's for sure - dynamic player full of positive, ball-winning intent.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

38 minutes ago, Norfolk Mustard said:

He took my eye, that's for sure - dynamic player full of positive, ball-winning intent.

Quite surprised he's still there and that no one has taken a chance on him. 

[Jerrykerry 223]

Barely seen Skipp or sorensen. 

Two games in. 

Tettey is too old. 

Yet still the morons scream for him. 

One game and its give up and retreat. 

Why are our fans so spineless?