Soft Centre

[yellowrider120 762]

1 hour ago, Il Pirata said:

Vrancic, Steipermann and Buendia. We've been poor ever since we took these three away from Pukki. 

I'd love to know the reason why Vrancic doesn't start, considering his form and effectiveness last time in the Champs. Even in the handful of games he showed last year he showed a lot of class. It's absolutely mind boggling. That first half against Spurs was top class, I can't recall another midfielder putting in such a classy performance - Leitner against Newcastle maybe?!

Mclean and Cantwell came into the side towards the end of our championship winning season and we lost our fluidity. Results were harder to come by, and games became a grind. Without Leitner, Vrancic and Buendia, our football was not nearly as good or exciting. 

Further to this, the best I saw Mclean play last season was away to Everton. And he played in an advanced role! He just isn't good enough in a holding role, especially in a Farke ball system! 

I have never understood the almost incessant criticism of McLean but I'm not blind to his deficiencies either. Totally agree about his performance at Everton - he was outstanding so why the hell didn't Farke see the 'bleedin obvious' and use him in that role as first choice. he is NOT a 'holding midfielder' yet this stubborn 'Head Coach' continues to play him there. I would certainly integrate Vrancic for a few games to see if he can have the impact some of us forecast. Fans seem obsessed with having players that can run around chasing the ball like lunatics and 'getting stuck in' yet ignore the fact that matches are often decided by moments of genuine quality and that is what Vrancic can bring. He is the best, natural long range passer of the ball in the club and utilising that with the pace of Idah, Argos and Placheta could bring rich rewards. The great Martin Peters who many fans still recall gracing FCR did not have (indeed, never had) that 'physical' side to his game but his technical ability and class on the ball was sublime. If you can integrate that with the necessary 'work rate' and 'physical strength' elsewhere in the team then job done.     

[Aggy 755]

5 hours ago, Petriix said:

5 hours ago, smooth said:

Agreed Aggy, totally agree.

Dont always like to see Pukki in the final third when we are defending as I think those 2 defensive midfield and defensive group should step forward and squeeze ths opposition.

We def need outlets and pukki further up the field with fast wingers and fast thinkers with great technical ability able to move us forward from our final third.

We definitely did sit a bit deeper today, but that was exactly what was required. We need more discipline and structure so that we can stop conceding soft goals. Then we can build in the better transition play and become a bit more expansive from a solid foundation.

Agree with both. 

No real issue with us sitting deep per se. So long as the attacking midfielders sit deeper and closer to the defensive midfielders and everyone shifts up and down as a unit. The issue is when one of the lines sits too deep/high - for instance, the defensive midfielders sit deep but there’s just open ground in front of them as the attacking midfielders are miles away.

Agree with comments re structure and building through the transition. I think we too often end up almost with a block of 4 and 6. Sometimes that’s 4 defenders and two holding midfielders with open ground in front of them as the attacking 4 are too far away, or the full backs get too high too early and we end up with 6 attackers and the two centre backs and holding midfielders too deep and far away from everyone else. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,161]

5 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

It's a pretty good indicator. 

Skipp gave away the penalty today. If you want to make a video to demonstrate the concept of 'ball watching' then just clip up Oliver doing just that as Sinclair ran behind him to set up their second. Skipp was very good last week, but at fault for both their goals today. Neither of the goals today were the fault of our defenders.  

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

7 hours ago, Jerrykerry said:

This obsession with vrancic, who can't run, tackle, or stay fit, amongst some "fans" is bordering on a mental illness. 

The same as the obsession with only seeing the bad in McLean and attacking him at literally every chance. 

Moronic. 

10 goals and 7 assists in our title winning season in this league. 

A goal every 148 minutes on the pitch. 

4 match winning goals, several march winning assists.

It is completely natural for fans to want to see whether Vrancic still has anything to offer at this level, you are being the moron.

 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

7 hours ago, Yellow Wal said:

What is wrong with people on here?

Have you not actually seen the last few matches Vrancic has started?

I was not surprised that he did not make the bench if that was based on those performances.

Still, he was a game changer when he came on against Luton.

Or doesn't that count?

He was class in the 2-2 draw with Tottenham, where he scored a goal and assisted the Pukki VAR scandal goal, and the 1-1 draw with Crystal Palace just before this. Was poor at Man Utd but the whole team was. 

Other two starts seem to be in our 10/11 game loss run, can't have been easy going into that team! 

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

11 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

**** me, it's like a broken record in here.

You've never seen Sorenson play and Vrancic is the dictionary definition of soft centre. Look the phrase up and there's a picture of him!! Ben Pearson would have absolutely crucified him.

I agree McLean was poor but Skipp was much improved in the second half. 

**** me. It's like a broken record in here. 

Fans discussing legitimate concerns over team selection on a fan's discussion forum causing people to **** their pants with rage. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

7 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Skipp gave away the penalty today. If you want to make a video to demonstrate the concept of 'ball watching' then just clip up Oliver doing just that as Sinclair ran behind him to set up their second. Skipp was very good last week, but at fault for both their goals today. Neither of the goals today were the fault of our defenders.  

Who are you blaming for Fisher, the actual goalscorer, being gifted freedom of our box? 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

**** me. It's like a broken record in here. 

Fans discussing legitimate concerns over team selection on a fan's discussion forum causing people to **** their pants with rage. 

Oh kid. This isn't rage. I can assure you of that.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,818]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

Who are you blaming for Fisher, the actual goalscorer, being gifted freedom of our box? 

Not the defenders. Godfrey was making a last ditch block on the line and Quintilla had to come across on the cover.

If you're going to 'blame' someone then surely it would be whoever was playing on the left wing at the time for not covering.

[Six Pack 92]

16 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Beyond the highlights I didn't watch Huddersfield and I understand Skipp had a great game there, but it was the centre mid that cost us a win today. Skipp and McLean looked out of their depth, despite Kenny playing a league lower than last year. 

I know McLean is teacher's pet and it won't happen, but I'd love to see Sorensen and Vrancic given a go. I suspect today would have gone far better with them starting. Certainly couldn't see them doing any worse.

To put you in the picture - Skipp had a solid game against Huddersfield covering but they didn't mention that he was nutmegged and skinned a number of times. Against better opposition these could have led to goals ! Why do we don't need an expensive loanee being trouse down when we have skillful midfield players who yes can be beaten but can at least do damage at the other end of the pitch. Skipp is primarily a defensive player.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,161]

26 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Not the defenders. Godfrey was making a last ditch block on the line and Quintilla had to come across on the cover.

If you're going to 'blame' someone then surely it would be whoever was playing on the left wing at the time for not covering.

Exactly!!!

If you watch the goal again on the club highlights you can clearly see another player (the one who should have been marking Fisher) dreaming and ball watching. He's wearing red boots, the number on his back is 25 and his name is Onel Hernandez. 

[seanthecanary 168]

It's Paul McVeigh all over again in that there has always been a belief on this forum where the players not in the 11 are the answer to all the problems.  We have played 2 league games, not lost and people already want to throw the baby out with the bath water.  It's 2 games from a side that is trying to regain confidence after a horrendous period of losing games, conceding plenty of goals and not scoring them.  Until they put a string of results together, confidence will be fragile.  Dropping down a division doesn't instantly give you belief back.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of Mclean in CM but judgement needs to reserved on a young player who had 15 appearances before he moved here, he's finding his feet.  I do like Vrancic and would love to see him more involved and we know what Tettey brings to the table, a solid 7/8 game after game.  As always at the start of the season, time is needed to fully judge the team though.  As it stands, we are 3 points ahead of where we were when winning the league two seasons ago 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,161]

8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

He was class in the 2-2 draw with Tottenham, where he scored a goal and assisted the Pukki VAR scandal goal, and the 1-1 draw with Crystal Palace just before this. Was poor at Man Utd but the whole team was. 

Other two starts seem to be in our 10/11 game loss run, can't have been easy going into that team! 

 

He was average against Palace and he also played in the home defeat against Sheffield Utd which was well before lockdown (his non-attempt to tackle Baldock on the edge of our box was a major factor in Sheff Utd's winning goal). 

I'll always love Mario for that stellar run at the end of our Championship winning season, but as well as his very obvious strengths he's also got very obvious weaknesses. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

13 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

He was average against Palace and he also played in the home defeat against Sheffield Utd which was well before lockdown (his non-attempt to tackle Baldock on the edge of our box was a major factor in Sheff Utd's winning goal). 

I'll always love Mario for that stellar run at the end of our Championship winning season, but as well as his very obvious strengths he's also got very obvious weaknesses. 

We're a Championship side, a player without weaknesses won't be a Norwich player for long. It's a case of weighing up those weaknesses against what they bring to the table. 

Vrancic's weaknesses are indeed very obvious, but so are his strengths. McLean's weaknesses are becoming increasingly and consistently obvious, and beyond his ability to win a header what he contributes to a game is becoming harder and harder to recognise. He looked woefully out of his depth at times in the Premier League. I hoped dropping down a level would remedy that. Whilst it's very early days, the evidence isn't all that promising.

[canarydan23 4,060]

53 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Oh kid. This isn't rage. I can assure you of that.

You sound like Cilla Black trying to be intimidating. 

[Matt Morriss 69]

McLean was appalling yesterday.

I don't know what Farke sees in him, he is such a limited player.

Can't remember a more abject performance from a city player as bad as McLean's. No goals, no assists, no forward passes, no forward runs, no tackles, no blocks, no headers, no shots.

Plenty of 5 yard sideways and backward passes though to BG and Zim, along with loads of pointing whenever anyone else came near him with the ball, especially when Zimbo and Ben came forward.

I remember Skipp making at least 4 drives forward in the second half ending with a decent forward pass. Not once did McLean do this.

Absolute lazy performance from him, contributed nothing at all and we could have played 4132 and nobody would have noticed.

This guy has a midfield responsibility to create, drive forward and influence our play yet he did absolutely 0% of the above. Just watch his defensive work when Prestons midfield are moving the ball forward thru Midfield. McLean is just wandering around giving the impression he is working hard all while the ball is going past, or thru him in the case of the 2nd goal. There is no fast closing down, no gut busting to win his battle, just jogging around near where the play is.

I don't like feeling this re: a city player but I am still fuming over his performance yesterday, having just watched the highlights again, where of course he wasnt involved in anything. 

Plenty of highlights from everyone else however, Aarons for example with shots runs and crosses.

We see more from our defenders than we do from McLean when it comes to forward runs, passes, shots and crosses. Just look at Quintilla and Aarons attacking involvement yesterday, and a bit from Ben Godfrey driving forward. The game just passes McLean by and he's done nothing of note in 90 mins.

He has got to go. Watch the first half v Watford last season when Vrancic came in. More creative and diverse forward passes in 45 mins than McLean managed all season. Our play was much quicker and dynamic.

I don't get the McLean love in from Farke at all. Appalling player, so limited.

Reminds me of Fozzy. 

[Six Pack 92]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

You sound like Cilla Black trying to be intimidating. 

Can imagine Terminally Yellow pulling down his trousers and saying "step inside love"

[rock bus 851]

McLean = Andy Hughes

Lots if talking and pointing. Looks like he is busy and all over the pitch.But in fact he is always a yard off and his tackling attempts are weak.

sure he is a ‘great influence’ in the dressing room. Which is great but make him a coach not a player!!!

Edited September 20, 2020 by rock bus

[Aggy 755]

2 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Not the defenders. Godfrey was making a last ditch block on the line and Quintilla had to come across on the cover.

If you're going to 'blame' someone then surely it would be whoever was playing on the left wing at the time for not covering.

Rupp mainly to blame for me on the second - he is day dreaming, doesn’t follow his man and is taken out of the game completely by the through ball. Whether he should have been in that position in the first place is questionable (when I first watched the highlights I just presumed it was Zimmerman who lost his man as that’s where he should have been - got pulled too wide out to the right) but if Rupp’s there he’s got to go with the attacker. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Aggy

[Matt Morriss 69]

34 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Rupp mainly to blame for me on the second - he is day dreaming, doesn’t follow his man and is taken out of the game completely by the through ball. Whether he should have been in that position in the first place is questionable (when I first watched the highlights I just presumed it was Zimmerman who lost his man as that’s where he should have been - got pulled too wide out to the right) but if Rupp’s there he’s got to go with the attacker. 

Rupp??? Errrrrrr.......

[Aggy 755]

3 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

Rupp??? Errrrrrr.......

Ha, yes, Skipp! It’s the ‘p’s.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,161]

46 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Rupp mainly to blame for me on the second - he is day dreaming, doesn’t follow his man and is taken out of the game completely by the through ball. Whether he should have been in that position in the first place is questionable (when I first watched the highlights I just presumed it was Zimmerman who lost his man as that’s where he should have been - got pulled too wide out to the right) but if Rupp’s there he’s got to go with the attacker. 

🙂 When I first read this I presumed it was satire aimed at those who are continually criticising Rupp (when they take time off from criticising McLean that is). 

[Aggy 755]

3 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

🙂 When I first read this I presumed it was satire aimed at those who are continually criticising Rupp (when they take time off from criticising McLean that is). 

Not this time... I gave myself enough of a headache yesterday after jokingly posting about Godfrey playing in midfield and then not being able to decide whether the “what are you folk on about” replies were real or sarcastic as well!

[Fr. Chewy Louie 137]

13 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Skipp was very good last week, but at fault for both their goals today. Neither of the goals today were the fault of our defenders.  

Maybe a question to answer about where Zimmermann was for the second goal. Think he was pulled outside with an attacker, but no one filled the gap he'd left. Skipp should obviously have tracked Sinclair nonetheless.

[All the Germans 1,075]

3 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

McLean's weaknesses are becoming increasingly and consistently obvious

I don't think McLean has any massive weaknesses, but no particular strengths either. Those are why he's selected and also the reason he is not liked by fans. He is more solid defensively than Vrancic, he's better with the ball than Tettey, he's more mobile than Trybull, more physical Leitner. He's just not good at any of them. Jack of all trades. He is useful, but to me should not start every game.

 

[Doomcaster 10]

Preston match

So many of our so called  'stars' were very very  poor yesterday

Needs a big attitude shake up from Farke, if he is able to do it? - not sure he can do it

Saw ratings per player from our EDP 'Chief' reporter - did he watch the same match as me?

Zimmerman - Cantwell - McClean were very very poor - should score a 3 at best - others looked not fit or uninterested

Total lack of midfield presence - we were very lucky to score 2 goals

Gibson needs to play if he is fit - Zimmerman is a decent 3rd or 4th choice CB replacement - nothing more

McClean - I have  no idea why Farke likes him so much - same with Cantwell & Zimmerman - all deliver very little on the pitch

Like the Adam Idah  @ 10 - if I expect 100% we will lose Buendia (very sadly - knee knock lol).  Buy Pritchard when we sell Buendia

Aarons - he is quality, I wish him very well with a £20+m price tag

Good to see Pukki back scoring - Championship is probably a good level for him to ply his trade

Idah - just hope the robust young man he gets the chance to play 10 (or Pritchard)  - Cantwell is just not the answer within the Championship - weak and just not good enough to compensate

Just my opinions

Hope we get a good result next week against Bourmouth

Farke - he needs to step up to the plate & deliver very soon ...

 

[Bonzo 198]

Both Skipp and McLean under-performed on Saturday, that is all -it is still early days.

Mclean is a number 8 not a 6. He is therefore the more progressive of the holding pair but not a defensive mid as such. He's not a flashy player either and much of what he does is off the ball in terms of positional work, interceptions and blocking off the passing corridors. He's preferred to Tetty because his passing is better. Tetty and Skipp would be two number 6's. 

That said the set up of the side and selection of players was a reflection of Farke's own caution.

Skipp's error was of course foolish. The second goal was from a through ball played through McLean's legs (it happens) a fortunate rebound and a nice strike followed.

Was anyone really at fault for that?

The ball is round and bouncy- sometimes it can go anywhere- that is football. 

Placheta and Idah are certainly the more progressive options against a high pressing side. Players whom a more confident manager might have started with. 

Preston came to get something out of the game, they wanted to win- whereas  our mentality was that we didn't want to lose.

It took us a few setbacks to finally find our balls and start to use them.

If we'd started like that we'd have probably won. 

At a guess Farke will keep the same two holding players for our next game. Skipp will get some coaching. Dowell's injury will allow Placheta a run.

Let's hope for a better performance right from the start against Bournemouth.