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Kenny signs new contract until 2023

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6 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

 

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Don't bother pointing out that he was a sub in all those green games, as I'll point out the two match winning goals!

But (playing devils advocate for the purpose of balance) is it not worth pointing out the difference in quality of opposition and their general overall performance that season? Ipswich aside of course (but the derby is more often than not tougher than on paper)

I agree that he is a quality player, I want to see more of him.

But my point being that you can go back and forth with stats and such all day (won more games, but he was a sub, but he scored 2 winners, but they were against weaker teams etc.etc.)

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He's a solid player at this level and while I agree he isn't outstanding at much, mobility in midfield is important and he provides it. 

However, I don't see the rush to extend his contracts. He got a new three year deal in our contract spree last season so still had two years to go- we've basically given him a new deal every summer he's been here.

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11 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

We'd have missed him last time at this level, as his goals and assists were crucial in us acheiving promotion, and contributed far more to our success than McLean did.

I guess I just prefer someone who can pick out 50 yard passes, inch perfect through balls, who actually scores regularly and has a fantastic free kick to someone who simply runs a lot for 90 minutes, but what do I know?

I think at this level we would miss both, by championship standards both Mc Lean and Vracic are very good performers and strength in depth is what you need over a grueling 46 game championship season. Forget comments about their ability or otherwise in the PL we are not there any more, if we do go up again then that is the time to have that debate

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2 minutes ago, king canary said:

He's a solid player at this level and while I agree he isn't outstanding at much, mobility in midfield is important and he provides it. 

However, I don't see the rush to extend his contracts. He got a new three year deal in our contract spree last season so still had two years to go- we've basically given him a new deal every summer he's been here.

Webber has said he likes the "little and often" thing with contracts didn't he. So he doesn't like giving big pay rises in one go. 

Who knows whether we get something else out of this deal, what if the last deal has a release clause which is below what we feel we can get for him now, etc? 

In McLean's case it looks like he's just getting a one year extension each year. We sell it as a "new three year contract", but that replaces a contract with two years in it. 

Could even just have activated an extension clause in the last one and the PR team fancies exaggerating the significance. 

What I really want to hear about though is a Cantwell extension! 

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28 minutes ago, South Sider said:

But (playing devils advocate for the purpose of balance) is it not worth pointing out the difference in quality of opposition and their general overall performance that season? Ipswich aside of course (but the derby is more often than not tougher than on paper).

Maybe, but we know Vrancic isn't a player for every game.... Probably more effective against weaker sides because he's much more useful when we're dominating possession and just need somebody who can come on and finish a move with a killer pass or goal.  Both him and McLean worth their place in our squad for this season for difference reasons and can play together in a 3. 

Although Vrancic showed some flashes of real quality last season, goal against Spurs last season should have been followed by the assist of the season (when Pukki was mugged by VAR for having a shoulder 1cm offside). 

All things considered, I think Farke has made the right choice in choosing Trybull and Leitner over McLean and Vrancic as the casualties of the rebuild. Just a shame Rupp has not impressed so far, a bit of wait and see with him. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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Here's another interesting stat to consider, in our champs promotion season Vrancic played in a total of 36 league games, out of those 36 games, he played 75+ minutes on just 13 occasions, and out of those 13 occasions there were only 4 times where he didn't score or assist, which equates to a genuine major contribution nearly 70% of the time. On top of this there were a further 6 games where he got less than 45 minutes on the pitch and still scored or assisted!

There were 15 games where he got 10 minutes or less to make a difference (a tough ask of ANY player), so in terms of the games where he was given at least 15 minutes (20 games), he contributed with a goal or assist 13 times - so 65% of the time. This is an incredible level of contribution and something which seems to have not only been forgotten, but dismissed out of hand because "he's a bit slow and not great defensively".

I'll take a player who gives me a goal and/or and assist every 2 out 3 games, as well as giving us a genuine creative spark whilst playing to the strengths of our attackers any day of the week, and certainly over a jack of all trades industrious midfielder who's most lauded attributes are that he covers a lot of ground and he's committed (a'la Andy Hughes).

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11 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

Here's another interesting stat to consider, in our champs promotion season Vrancic played in a total of 36 league games, out of those 36 games, he played 75+ minutes on just 13 occasions, and out of those 13 occasions there were only 4 times where he didn't score or assist, which equates to a genuine major contribution nearly 70% of the time. On top of this there were a further 6 games where he got less than 45 minutes on the pitch and still scored or assisted!

There were 15 games where he got 10 minutes or less to make a difference (a tough ask of ANY player), so in terms of the games where he was given at least 15 minutes (20 games), he contributed with a goal or assist 13 times - so 65% of the time. This is an incredible level of contribution and something which seems to have not only been forgotten, but dismissed out of hand because "he's a bit slow and not great defensively".

I'll take a player who gives me a goal and/or and assist every 2 out 3 games, as well as giving us a genuine creative spark whilst playing to the strengths of our attackers any day of the week, and certainly over a jack of all trades industrious midfielder who's most lauded attributes are that he covers a lot of ground and he's committed (a'la Andy Hughes).

The reason for Vrancic not playing regular 90's may not purely be down to tactical decisions, perhaps he just doesn't have the stamina/body to cope with regular 90's? 

And if he has made such a big impact off the bench or playing 60/70 of a game then perhaps that is optimum to get the best out of him. 

Can you remember McNamee? When he came through at Watford he looked very good and was linked to some big clubs. 

But do you know why he ended up limited to generally playing 10/15 minutes a game as an impact sub for a League One side? Not a trick question, I know the answer. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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It's good that we've done our business early and sewn up the position of scapegoat for the next three years (Kenny is probably the best we've had since Russell Martin left). 🤣

Apples

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13 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

I don’t understand the criticism of McLean in terms of his defensive abilities. We’re going to be playing in the championship this season, not the PL, and in the championship, Kenny was vital for us. To say otherwise you either have a really bad memory, are blinded by the poor season just gone (where only 1 player can come out of the season with any real credit and he’s a gk), don’t understand football or have some irrational dislike to McLean.

Have a listen to the podcasts/whatever-they-were that the pinkun did to celebrate promotion, fronted my Mr Bailey. McLean was quite rightly lauded for his contribution to the season and the stats are all there to back it up, both defensively and as an attacking threat. Yes stats don’t tell the whole story blah blah and I’m clearly not going to change Mr Bones’ opinion (blimey!) but my opinion is that he’s one of those (like Milner - good comparison btw, or even Lucas from Liverpool) sort of players that goes unnoticed until they’re not there.

He was our Mr dependable in the championship and I’m delighted he’s signed a new deal.

(and this is all from someone who really didn’t rate him after the first few games he played for us and was screaming for Leitner to remain alongside Tettey)

Its strange because I can vividly remember that run pf games where Kenny came into the side and although it coincided with our best run of form (and he chipped in with some important contributions) it was also a run of games where I felt we had far less control of the midfield and of the tempo of games than we did earlier in the season. As we know, if the team wins then Farke doesn't change it so its impossible to say but i'm not convinced that we wouldn;t have had the same level of success over that period had we been playing Leitner (for example) there instead. I think Skipp is pencilled in to start and I like the look of Sorensen but I do worry that with Farke's reluctance to change the team the latter may find himself stuck on the bench and with limited opportunity to prove himself in the first team.

That said Kenny is a good player at this level and will not let us down so I have no complaints about us keeping him and/or giving him a new contract.

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25 minutes ago, Mr Apples said:

It's good that we've done our business early and sewn up the position of scapegoat for the next three years (Kenny is probably the best we've had since Russell Martin left). 🤣

Apples

I think this thread sums up the state of our club to date, those who see players like Martin and McClean as good players because they put in a shift even if they’re just about decent championship players in a decent championship team.

After a season of premiership season I would like to think McClean will be a squad player with Sorensen and Skipp the main two along with others push on and improve our team from where it is now! 
 

I really hope we go up and if we do I really hope we invest on better players than Vrancic or McClean.

Edited by Indy

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Really intrigued to know what our preffered midfield 3 will be;

Tettey was generally very good last season, theres no reason why he couldn't have a fantastic season at this level. 

Cantwell (if hes still here) has to start at No.10, in which Stepi was very effective in at this level.

McClean just signed a three year deal and was a regular throughout Prem season.

Vrancic was excellent in our title winning season.

Skipp/Spurs - Surley will be expecting game time.

Dowell as a new signing and experience Championship midfielder, should certainaly be in the mix.

Leaving Rupp, Sorensen and Sitti. 

 

I make that 10 players for 3 positions. 

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I would go for:

Sorensen Skipp

Buendia Dowell Hernandez

Pukki

Although would happily have Tettey in for either of the holding midfielders and Placheta, Stiepermann and Cantwell in the attacking slots as well. I quite like the idea of Buendia central with Placheta and Onel either side. That would be a handful. We seem to have an awful lot of options. not sure Farke is going to be able to keep them all happy. 

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3 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Maybe, but we know Vrancic isn't a player for every game.... Probably more effective against weaker sides because he's much more useful when we're dominating possession and just need somebody who can come on and finish a move with a killer pass or goal.  Both him and McLean worth their place in our squad for this season for difference reasons and can play together in a 3. 

Although Vrancic showed some flashes of real quality last season, goal against Spurs last season should have been followed by the assist of the season (when Pukki was mugged by VAR for having a shoulder 1cm offside). 

All things considered, I think Farke has made the right choice in choosing Trybull and Leitner over McLean and Vrancic as the casualties of the rebuild. Just a shame Rupp has not impressed so far, a bit of wait and see with him. 

I completely agree with all this , I would be happy for us to start the two on a regular basis,I think Kenny is a far better player than people give him credit for, not outstanding at anything but half decent at everything, probably should score more goals ,glad the three players are going ,leitners to lightweight for English football ,trybull not good enough, drmic offers nothing.as for rupp I think this will be his level .. it will be interesting to see how stiepperman does this season.!

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I personally McLean he is a bit better than a 'jack of all trades'.

He is good at coming deep and picking up the ball under pressure, spinning away from the opposition, carrying the ball and spraying the ball out wide or further forwards. He has more direct style than a Vrancic, which is probably more in tune with the tempo Farke likes us to play at, he is also stronger on the ball at maintaining possession and has the added bonus of his aerial ability. I think his passing is also an attribute (but respectably inferior to Vrancic if we are carrying that comparison).

There have been performances last season where he has stood out to me for sure. When he is on form he forms the main link between our defence and midfield across all sides and covers a lot of ground doing so.

I think it is telling how much Farke favours him over Vrancic - particularly last season. Whether it is the languid pace of Mario, the (slight) reduction in protection for our defence or the method in which defence is turned into attack. I am sure Farke is familiar with Vrancic's championship performances (and of course the stats raised by Indy B), yet he remained in favour of McLean with Vrancic falling into the role of 'super-sub'.

It does appear that for whatever of those reasons Farke saw Vrancic as a luxury player, even in the champs, and this worsened in the prem versus superior teams where we really saw very little of him (disappointingly so it has to be said).

McLean seems a bit of Jonny Howson type now where some people rate him highly and others think he is entirely anonymous. I think the truth is probably somewhere in between but I expect he will be a mainstay in our central midfield this season even in leu of our signings, and I am not disheartened by that!

Edited by Hank shoots Skyler
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Consistent,  hard working, versatile if unexceptional performer who is ok at champs level.   Clearly trusted by the coach,  I hope he does more to inspire me this year.   My main issue is that we have a  better option for the dedicated position he plays in,  whether in the 6 or 8 role - although he was probably the one who just about adequately covered both positions at once last season.   For me part of the issue last season was that he was the best option compared to Mario or Trybull once Leitner was exiled. 

 

I am hoping that  Skipp and Sorensen can become our SaS and offer more than Kenny or Tettey does.   

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I think part of it is probably because I've always preferred a combination of an athletic hard working midfielder twinned with a creative passer/attacking player.

92/93 - Goss and Crook

01/02 - Holt and Mulryne

03/04 - Holt and Francis/Mulryne

11/12 - Johnson/Crofts & Fox/Hoolahan

14/15 - Tettey & Hoolahan

18/19 - Tettey/Trybull & Vrancic/Leitner

Some of our best seasons in terms of football played and results over the last 30 years, but the game has also changed over that time, with more need for a defensive midfielder than just a work horse.

I don't have an issue with McLean taking the hard work role (although I feel others contribute more defensively e.g. Tettey), but he doesn't suit the creative passer role which is why our supply and passing dips when he's playing alongside a Tettey or a Trybull type player, and we don't see a genuine benefit in terms of possession or defensive stability with that trade-off in exchange.

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Realistically our 6 positions are Skipp/Sorensen/Tettey and the 8 positions are Mclean/Rupp/Vrancic. Dowell could be a long term 8, but I'd expect to see him at 10 or on the right.

From Tettey's interview today it sounds like he's expecting the others to start ahead of him. I'd expect him and Vrancic to be used more sparingly this season, so I reckon Skipp & Mclean start against Huddersfield.

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4 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

Here's another interesting stat to consider, in our champs promotion season Vrancic played in a total of 36 league games, out of those 36 games, he played 75+ minutes on just 13 occasions, and out of those 13 occasions there were only 4 times where he didn't score or assist, which equates to a genuine major contribution nearly 70% of the time. On top of this there were a further 6 games where he got less than 45 minutes on the pitch and still scored or assisted!

There were 15 games where he got 10 minutes or less to make a difference (a tough ask of ANY player), so in terms of the games where he was given at least 15 minutes (20 games), he contributed with a goal or assist 13 times - so 65% of the time. This is an incredible level of contribution and something which seems to have not only been forgotten, but dismissed out of hand because "he's a bit slow and not great defensively".

I'll take a player who gives me a goal and/or and assist every 2 out 3 games, as well as giving us a genuine creative spark whilst playing to the strengths of our attackers any day of the week, and certainly over a jack of all trades industrious midfielder who's most lauded attributes are that he covers a lot of ground and he's committed (a'la Andy Hughes).

This^^^^.....x100.

I still can't quite believe he didn't get more time on the pitch last season. Against Spurs at home in the league he was brilliant, also scoring the first goal. Just one game, you may say, but he was in the team for a couple more games until we failed as a team away against Man Utd - and he hardly got a look in after that.  We genuinely missed quality at set pieces - the very thing he excels at most - so an important miss in the team. 

This season, he could prove - as he did last time - the difference between getting promoted and not getting promoted.  He is that good, as your stats above show.

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I am a little concerned that we’re mainly debating the pros and cons of two midfielders who have shown to be good at this level a couple years ago, found not to be good enough in the premiership and since then bought in additional younger potentially a step up in class on Vrancic and McClean.

Surely we should be happy to have signed him as a squad player in case we don’t go up, he’s certainly very good at this level, but I’m hoping we don’t see too much, I’m hoping Skipp, Sorensen will give us that compact god defensive cover we’ve missed, additional height and a little more quality to break the dull sideways ****e we played last year.

Shouldn’t we be discussing how excited we are with Skipp, Sorensen, Dowell added time a decent midfield?

Edited by Indy

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2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

This^^^^.....x100.

I still can't quite believe he didn't get more time on the pitch last season. Against Spurs at home in the league he was brilliant, also scoring the first goal. Just one game, you may say, but he was in the team for a couple more games until we failed as a team away against Man Utd - and he hardly got a look in after that.  We genuinely missed quality at set pieces - the very thing he excels at most - so an important miss in the team. 

This season, he could prove - as he did last time - the difference between getting promoted and not getting promoted.  He is that good, as your stats above show.

I do rate Vrancic highly, and was disappointed that we didn't see more of him last season.

But I do also think there is more to it than the stats provided by IB. Farke loves his stats so will be fully aware of Vrancic's contributions, so clearly he believes there are other areas on the pitch which are more detrimental to the team overall when Mario is involved.  I cited some possibilities in my post above but really only Farke and the team behind the scenes will know. 

All we do know that Farke barely favoured Mario at all last season, so whatever it is he must feel pretty strongly about it!

 

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I haven't seen much of Sorenson, but was under the impression that he, like Skipp, would be a CDM / Tettey type player. And therefore it would be unlikely that we saw them both (Skipp and Sorenson) together, is this assumption incorrect?

Edited by Hank shoots Skyler

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6 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I haven't seen much of Sorenson, but was under the impression that he, like Skipp, would be a CDM / Tettey type player. And therefore it would be unlikely that we saw them both (Skipp and Sorenson) together, is this assumption incorrect?

Believe so. Think Sorenson played more as an 8 in the Danish league, but sees himself as a 6. Think the Skipp loan is so that Sorenson has time to acclimatise.

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5 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I haven't seen much of Sorenson, but was under the impression that he, like Skipp, would be a CDM / Tettey type player. And therefore it would be unlikely that we saw them both (Skipp and Sorenson) together, is this assumption incorrect?

I got from Farkes comments when we signed him, that he’s the aggressive big unit who gets the tackle in and can get forward to score a goal or two. At 22 and a under 23 Danish international, there’s hope he’s certainly part of the missing solid defensive cover we needed in front of the defenders.

Skipp too, probably similar type of player but not as tall, but for me having these two who can break up play and move the ball forwards, should do two things, mean we concede less goals and free up the front three midfielders to fully focus on supporting Pukki,Hugill or Idah, as they did a couple years back.

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Happy with this. I like a Kenny McClean type player in our squad. Easily good enough for this league, has character and never fails to show for the ball.

I also strongly suspect that given time we will see a more cultured level of performance from him whether we are in this league or PL. He will get better and better.

  

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On 03/09/2020 at 08:00, Terminally Yellow said:

Vrancic can't last a season, can't defend and has the benefit of mostly coming on against tired legs. The guy is a one trick pony. Goes missing in games and has no effect on so many occasions.

If Vrancic left tomorrow, we wouldn't miss him. If Kenny did, we would absolutely miss him. 

"One trick pony???!!!"  - oh yes his only trick is he's a "match winner". Only scored 10 goals (2nd top scorer) in our championship winning season (from very few starts as well), setup just as many. I suppose you would label Darren Huckerby a "one trick pony" as well - I mean he's also a match winner - can only just dribble past 8 or 9 opposition players and put it in the net - can't do anything else - absolutely hopeless !

I see you much prefer McLean with his multiple skill set - let's see, oh he can jump, head the ball, kick the ball, pass the ball, point, run forwards, run backwards, run to the left, run to the right - crikey this guy is a performing circus !!!  Which is where you should be on Saturdays rather than watching football - football is way too technical for you !   

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On 03/09/2020 at 15:32, East Rider said:

Happy with this. I like a Kenny McClean type player in our squad. Easily good enough for this league, has character and never fails to show for the ball.

I also strongly suspect that given time we will see a more cultured level of performance from him whether we are in this league or PL. He will get better and better.

  

Are you watching the right Kenny McLean?

He plays for Norwich, runs around pointing with the occasional skip / hop as he's running. 

The best thing Farke has to say about him "he covers alot of ground"

 

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8 hours ago, Six Pack said:

"One trick pony???!!!"  - oh yes his only trick is he's a "match winner". Only scored 10 goals (2nd top scorer) in our championship winning season (from very few starts as well), setup just as many. I suppose you would label Darren Huckerby a "one trick pony" as well - I mean he's also a match winner - can only just dribble past 8 or 9 opposition players and put it in the net - can't do anything else - absolutely hopeless !

I see you much prefer McLean with his multiple skill set - let's see, oh he can jump, head the ball, kick the ball, pass the ball, point, run forwards, run backwards, run to the left, run to the right - crikey this guy is a performing circus !!!  Which is where you should be on Saturdays rather than watching football - football is way too technical for you !   

Oh do **** off you condescending micro penis. Frankly Carrow Road is starting to resemble a circus with special people like you lurking around.

How many games did Mario "match winner" Vrancic win is last season? Kenny McLean, by the way, scored a goal which helped us beat Manchester City. 

One trick pony - as I went on to post - is a harsh way to describe Vrancic. But the guy is one dimensional, can't tackle, doesn't run, doesn't give the side anywhere near what McLean does. 

The fact you see him as a "match winner" just shows you how much more about football I know than you. You see the goals he scores and clap like a ****ing monkey. I see what else he adds to the side and think he's a luxury player. 

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Having watched a couple of the pre-season streams I would say Sorensen is the closest we have to an "all round" midfielder. He offers more athleticism than Trybull or Leitner but he's not solely a holding player, he was getting around the pitch quite a bit. I think he could play next to Skipp in midfield and I hope that ends up being the combination we put out. 

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I also think with Vrancic there is little doubt he is a classy and cultured player but last season he really appeared to be struggling to get back after we lost the ball even after he'd only been on the pitch a few minutes. i don;t know if he was struggling with fitness or if his legs have gone but it was really noticeable. i don;t think Farke sees him as a player that can play 90 minutes for us and I think (based on his comments after the game on saturday) he sees him as one contending for the 3 spaces behind the striker where being honest he's going to have his work cut out to get in the side regularly.

That said we now have a squad which means we can adapt the team according to the game/opposition. If we are against a team who are going to sit back and let us have the ball and challenge us to break them down then I think its a game for Vrancic. If we against teams with pace in midfield or that are going to go at us a bit more or where we need some solidity then he won;t feature. 

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5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Having watched a couple of the pre-season streams I would say Sorensen is the closest we have to an "all round" midfielder. He offers more athleticism than Trybull or Leitner but he's not solely a holding player, he was getting around the pitch quite a bit. I think he could play next to Skipp in midfield and I hope that ends up being the combination we put out. 

Not disagreeing with you - I like the look of Sorenson too - but I do think we have to be a bit patient with him. Young, living abroad for the first time, different level of league than to us here. I think he will come good but I think patience will be needed.

For me, Skipp is the first name on the team sheet. 

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