Vrancic

[hogesar 9,658]

7 minutes ago, Six Pack said:

win the ball, carry the ball, score and assist ??? Ok why didn't he do that last time then ? Must be a secret hidden talent so secret he doesn't even reveal it on match days !

He did. I'm not sure, contrary to your earlier post, that you had watched any of his championship games. Also, with 15 starts scoring 3 goals and 6 assists means he's more than often directly contributing to a goal than not, despite not being an out and out attacking midfielder for us.

Because you obviously haven't been able to see it for yourself, I have to be pedantic and use stats:

- Mclean has twice as many successful dribbles than Vrancic in the championship season

- Mclean was fouled twice as many times as Vrancic

- Mclean was dispossessed less frequently than Vrancic

- Mclean made twice as many interceptions, and more tackles than Vrancic

I'm focusing on Vrancic because you decided earlier that Wacky's PPG was irrelevant because it's all about direct involvement in the game and since Leitner barely assisted or scored I guess it's easy to focus on Vrancic who delivered on both those fronts.

Mclean is by no means the best midfielder we've ever had but he's the best we've got at the moment unless any of the new one's are a significant step up. Like I say, he'll play ahead of Vrancic most times because overall he has a lot more to his game.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

11 minutes ago, Six Pack said:

win the ball, carry the ball, score and assist ??? Ok why didn't he do that last time then ? Must be a secret hidden talent so secret he doesn't even reveal it on match days !

Probably because we were playing in the Premier League.

Why didn't Leitner and Vrancic, who are allegedly so much better, perform to such a high level last season when they were given the chance?

[Six Pack 93]

8 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

So it's just a complete coincidence that results were better with McLean in the side? Everyone else just happened to play so much better with Kenny in there, while they didn't perform at their best when Moritz and Mario played?

Maybe, just maybe, it's that McLean does the defensive side of the game much better and is much more physical than the other two, which means the team plays better as a result.

I remember in 2003 when Real Madrid, probably the best side in the world at the time, sold Claude Makelele because the President said that he only passes backwards and sideways, and lacks the speed and skill to dribble past opponents. He completely forgot (or didn't realise) that Makelele doing the dirty jobs that a lot of people didn't notice was crucial to the team and by letting him go and not signing another defensive midfielder to replace him, they didn't win another trophy until 2007.

McLean looks at great person to play with on the pitch and encourages others, so therefore a happy team I don't deny that - he looks a top bloke. Yes he tackles a lot more than the other two but when Leitner & Vrancic are in the side, we control possession so normally the opposition is running around and having to make tackles - we're the team with the ball. McLean - the opposition has the ball, we have to do the running around. It'd a tough world - this football business - McLean is the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff - we don't need that ! Farke is doing "wheelspins" trying to push **** uphill with this type of formation !

Play McLean behind the striker is he wants but don't shoot yourself in the foot by leaving x factor players on the bench.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

2 minutes ago, Six Pack said:

McLean looks at great person to play with on the pitch and encourages others, so therefore a happy team I don't deny that - he looks a top bloke. Yes he tackles a lot more than the other two but when Leitner & Vrancic are in the side, we control possession so normally the opposition is running around and having to make tackles - we're the team with the ball. McLean - the opposition has the ball, we have to do the running around. It'd a tough world - this football business - McLean is the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff - we don't need that ! Farke is doing "wheelspins" trying to push **** uphill with this type of formation !

Play McLean behind the striker is he wants but don't shoot yourself in the foot by leaving x factor players on the bench.

But we're certainly no less successful with McLean in the side. In fact, results are generally better with him.

It seems like you feel Leitner and Vrancic are better than McLean purely because they're better passers and better technically. However, there are many more attributes that a footballer needs and McLean does a lot of them better than Leitner and Vrancic.

[Six Pack 93]

3 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But we're certainly no less successful with McLean in the side. In fact, results are generally better with him.

It seems like you feel Leitner and Vrancic are better than McLean purely because they're better passers and better technically. However, there are many more attributes that a footballer needs and McLean does a lot of them better than Leitner and Vrancic.

Apologies if I'm "old fashion" and enjoy watching skill. Yes I do prefer watching Leitner & Vrancic play in the role of CM than McLean. Farke should play McLean in the number 10 role - the position we acquired him for.  In the Championship, we lose an advantage by leaving those two out.

[hogesar 9,658]

Just now, Six Pack said:

Apologies if I'm "old fashion" and enjoy watching skill. Yes I do prefer watching Leitner & Vrancic play in the role of CM than McLean. Farke should play McLean in the number 10 role - the position we acquired him for.  In the Championship, we lose an advantage by leaving those two out.

Be aware that Leitner is an irrelevant player to us for next season - he won't be here and if he is he won't be playing judging by all reports to date.

[Capt. Pants 4,227]

5 hours ago, Six Pack said:

"I can see him being a regular sub, but not regular starter. McLean is the preferred do it all type player Farke likes and probably rightly so".

We’re back in the Championship now so need to win games to get back up, not draw games to stay in the Prem. McLean applied himself well last season but we need attacking prowess from that position now. You can point to the Championship winning season where McLean played games at the tail end but can you seriously say that if McLean had played all 46 matches at CM that season, (rather Leitner and Vrancic) we would have been promoted ?  He hasn’t a dog’s chance of being more effective than those two – if you watched the matches you’ll know that !

I did watch the matches thank you. What I did see was that Vrancic was very quiet and rarely did much. A nice free kick goal in a meaningless friendly against Spurs and one terrific pass to Pukki again Spurs. At the moment Farke prefers McLean, rightly or wrongly.

Vrancic pretty much has zero defensive capability and in terms of attacking in the Championship we have Cantwell, Emi, Hernandez, Placheta and Dowell. In addition to that we will play with at least one DM, which Vrancic isn't. Obviously that could change if we lose Todd and Emi, but for now it seems Mario's opportunities could be limited to coming off the bench.

 

 

[Six Pack 93]

25 minutes ago, hogesar said:

He did. I'm not sure, contrary to your earlier post, that you had watched any of his championship games. Also, with 15 starts scoring 3 goals and 6 assists means he's more than often directly contributing to a goal than not, despite not being an out and out attacking midfielder for us.

Because you obviously haven't been able to see it for yourself, I have to be pedantic and use stats:

- Mclean has twice as many successful dribbles than Vrancic in the championship season

- Mclean was fouled twice as many times as Vrancic

- Mclean was dispossessed less frequently than Vrancic

- Mclean made twice as many interceptions, and more tackles than Vrancic

I'm focusing on Vrancic because you decided earlier that Wacky's PPG was irrelevant because it's all about direct involvement in the game and since Leitner barely assisted or scored I guess it's easy to focus on Vrancic who delivered on both those fronts.

Mclean is by no means the best midfielder we've ever had but he's the best we've got at the moment unless any of the new one's are a significant step up. Like I say, he'll play ahead of Vrancic most times because overall he has a lot more to his game.

3 goals & 6 assists from 15 starts from a pivotable role in a championship winning team. We'll be in the bottom half of the table with those stats ! Yes I look at all aspects for the game and those other stats (McLean/Vrancic) are those of a defensive midfielder.

[hogesar 9,658]

7 minutes ago, Six Pack said:

3 goals & 6 assists from 15 starts from a pivotable role in a championship winning team. We'll be in the bottom half of the table with those stats ! Yes I look at all aspects for the game and those other stats (McLean/Vrancic) are those of a defensive midfielder.

Extrapolated over a season in the championship that would be 9-10 goals and 18 assists from a midfielder who CAN ALSO keep us solid at the back. That certainly wouldn't be bottom-half midfielder statistics?

As an example, West Brom's best midfielder, and probably the best in the league some would argue was Matheus Pereira, who achieved 8 goals and 16 assists....

[Six Pack 93]

3 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I did watch the matches thank you. What I did see was that Vrancic was very quiet and rarely did much. A nice free kick goal in a meaningless friendly against Spurs and one terrific pass to Pukki again Spurs. At the moment Farke prefers McLean, rightly or wrongly.

Vrancic pretty much has zero defensive capability and in terms of attacking in the Championship we have Cantwell, Emi, Hernandez, Placheta and Dowell. In addition to that we will play with at least one DM, which Vrancic isn't. Obviously that could change if we lose Todd and Emi, but for now it seems Mario's opportunities could be limited to coming off the bench.

 

 

I'm actually refering to the Championship only. Cantwell, Emi & Hernandez will do me fine in the attacking roles - we know the're good. But the newbees, have you watched Placheta and Dowell play for us ? Hope their not like those blokes we brought in last year. If Dowell was good why didn't Sheffield United retain him ? Might be cos their manager is a pretty astute guy. I want us to succeed but there no way to guess how these new signings will work out. We do know the strengths of our existing players - Cantwell, Buendia, Hernandez & Vrancic.

[hogesar 9,658]

2 minutes ago, Six Pack said:

I'm actually refering to the Championship only. Cantwell, Emi & Hernandez will do me fine in the attacking roles - we know the're good. But the newbees, have you watched Placheta and Dowell play for us ? Hope their not like those blokes we brought in last year. If Dowell was good why didn't Sheffield United retain him ? Might be cos their manager is a pretty astute guy. I want us to succeed but there no way to guess how these new signings will work out. We do know the strengths of our existing players - Cantwell, Buendia, Hernandez & Vrancic.

Pointless argument  - why didn't Celtic retain Pukki? Why didn't respective clubs retain half our squad who proved themselves good at championship level - your favourite Leitner being another example....

[Six Pack 93]

7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Extrapolated over a season in the championship that would be 9-10 goals and 18 assists from a midfielder who CAN ALSO keep us solid at the back. That certainly wouldn't be bottom-half midfielder statistics?

As an example, West Brom's best midfielder, and probably the best in the league some would argue was Matheus Pereira, who achieved 8 goals and 16 assists....

Love it Hogesar !

Extrapolated over a season ! you can't do that ! Honestly McLean doesn't have 9-10 goals in him !

It's just like saying VranciceExtrapolated over the season would have over 30 goals & 25 assists !!!

Not a good argument I'm afraid.

[hogesar 9,658]

2 minutes ago, Six Pack said:

Love it Hogesar !

Extrapolated over a season ! you can't do that ! Honestly McLean doesn't have 9-10 goals in him !

It's just like saying VranciceExtrapolated over the season would have over 30 goals & 25 assists !!!

Not a good argument I'm afraid.

It's better than saying 3 goals and 6 assists in 15 starts from a central midfielder would have us bottom half...

[Six Pack 93]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Pointless argument  - why didn't Celtic retain Pukki? Why didn't respective clubs retain half our squad who proved themselves good at championship level - your favourite Leitner being another example....

Hogesar, I am strictly talking about Dowell. He is an important subject - we bought him. Farke may turn him into Holty we can only hope, but for now he's an unknown and Wilder didn't take it further. 

[Six Pack 93]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

It's better than saying 3 goals and 6 assists in 15 starts from a central midfielder would have us bottom half...

Crikey !

No it's not - on those stats McLean is very average indeed. Considering the spanking he got from the lofty Wigan midfield couple of seasons ago - it is bottom half territory. If Farke plays him, the other 10 need to be super good.

[Fr. Chewy Louie 137]

1 minute ago, Six Pack said:

Crikey !

No it's not - on those stats McLean is very average indeed. Considering the spanking he got from the lofty Wigan midfield couple of seasons ago - it is bottom half territory. If Farke plays him, the other 10 need to be super good.

So Leitner is way below average presumably?

[Six Pack 93]

1 minute ago, Fr. Chewy Louie said:

So Leitner is way below average presumably?

Leitner is a different type of CM. He controls games with intelligent passing. Having said that Leitner does have goals in his locker. The subject of the number of goals making a player better was an argument used by others not me.

[Fuzzar 1,702]

1 minute ago, Six Pack said:

Leitner is a different type of CM. He controls games with intelligent passing. Having said that Leitner does have goals in his locker. The subject of the number of goals making a player better was an argument used by others not me.

A shame he's struggled to find the key to it for us.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

McLean has a great engine, and would make a good box-to-box number 10. But as a holding midfielder, further back, he doesn't excel and his engine doesn't make up for a lack of creativity as well as being relatively ineffective as a defensive shield. We want to dominate the ball in the Champs so there should be others ahead of him on the teamsheet.

[Six Pack 93]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzar said:

A shame he's struggled to find the key to it for us.

No, his team mates are always queuing up to score waiting for his creativity but we have sampled some goals.

Against Ipswich & Millwall  - beauties so hard forget them !

[Fr. Chewy Louie 137]

I'd agree it's not his best position, but I think on balance his all round game still makes him a better bet there than any other candidate. Anyway, a lot of games to come so plenty of chances for people to stake their claim.

[repman 635]

I think in the championship last time out, we looked a much better side with either Leitner or Vrancic than we did with Kenny. That is not to say that Kenny shouldn't play, but the way we played as a side with the other 2 was in a much more controlled and dominant fashion.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

51 minutes ago, Six Pack said:

 If Dowell was good why didn't Sheffield United retain him ? Might be cos their manager is a pretty astute guy. 

Who says they didn't try? And besides, that was two seasons ago when Dowell was younger, and he played 16 games after joining in January as Sheffield United were promoted. I'd say that loan was pretty successful.

 

31 minutes ago, Six Pack said:

Crikey !

No it's not - on those stats McLean is very average indeed. Considering the spanking he got from the lofty Wigan midfield couple of seasons ago - it is bottom half territory. If Farke plays him, the other 10 need to be super good.

Those stats are excellent for a central midfielder in a 4-2-3-1. What sort of numbers do you expect from a midfielder? The sort of numbers that would see a team average five goals a game?

And despite posting impressive numbers and an almost unprecedented PPG average when he was in the side, you choose to mention one game when we didn't play well as a reason why he must be a poor player? Using that logic, all of our squad last season are National League standard because everyone put in at least one terrible performance.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[hogesar 9,658]

30 minutes ago, Six Pack said:

Leitner is a different type of CM. He controls games with intelligent passing. Having said that Leitner does have goals in his locker. The subject of the number of goals making a player better was an argument used by others not me.

Just, he doesn't score or assist as many as Mclean (who's figures are bottom half champs according to you), whilst being weaker defensively and in other aspects of the game. Although he does control the tempo considerably better.

[Six Pack 93]

1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Who says they didn't? And besides, that was two seasons ago when Dowell was younger, and he played 16 games after joining in January as Sheffield United were promoted. I'd say that loan was pretty successful.

 

Those stats are excellent for a central midfielder in a 4-2-3-1. What sort of numbers do you expect from a midfielder? The sort of numbers that would see a team average five goals a game?

And despite posting impressive numbers and an almost unprecedented PPG average when he was in the side, you choose to mention one game when we didn't play well as a reason why he must be a poor player? Using that logic, all of our squad last season are National League standard because everyone put in at least one terrible performance.

I watch most the games so McLean & the Wigan game is not a one-off. In the CM position we lost a lot of rhythm when he played. It was obvious  that the "well-oiled" machine was running without pistons when he was in the team. I used Wigan cost none of the forward players produced magic to save the game so the problem was not covered up. Some just can't see it.

We shall see how Dowell works out. Sheffield got promoted I doubt it was down to his loan - if it was Wilder would have extend it.

[Six Pack 93]

15 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Just, he doesn't score or assist as many as Mclean (who's figures are bottom half champs according to you), whilst being weaker defensively and in other aspects of the game. Although he does control the tempo considerably better.

Yes - he part assist for most goals

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

Mclean got 3 goals and 6 assists in the championship season.

Vrancic got 10 goals and 7 assists

Leitner got 2 goals and 1 assist.

Take into account that leitner wins nothing in the air and doesnt tackle, Mclean won the ball back more than Vrancic and gave it away less whilst winning over double the amount of aerial challenges it's not actually difficult to argue that overall Mclean is a better option than both Leitner and Vrancic

This is a strange use of stats Hogesar.

What would the goal and assists stats for centre midfielder N'Golo Kante say compared with the various average players he played alongside, like Andy King. 

Vrancic a more advanced playmaker, Leitner is a deep lying playmaker. 

Vrancic is more likely to play the final ball / key pass which puts Pukki through on goal, but he isn't capable of dictating tempo like Leitner. 

They aren't like-for-like. 

I personally think its a huge shame that bridges seem to be burnt with Leitner, he was a joy to watch that season. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[hogesar 9,658]

4 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

This is a strange use of stats Hogesar.

What would the goal and assists stats for centre midfielder N'Golo Kante say compared with the various average players he played alongside, like Andy King. 

Vrancic a more advanced playmaker, Leitner is a deep lying playmaker. 

Vrancic is more likely to play the final ball / key pass which puts Pukki through on goal, but he isn't capable of dictating tempo like Leitner. 

They aren't like-for-like. 

I personally think its a huge shame that bridges seem to be burnt with Leitner, he was a joy to watch that season. 

Of course, but I only went down the route because the argument started drifting towards the fact that Six Pack suggested Mclean wasn't "directly involved" in our PPG - i.e goals and assists - when he was.

I'm not saying Mclean is our best attacking mid or our best defensive. But he's our best all-rounder which the stats back up. The stats also suggest that we don't massive lose out offensively when Mclean plays, but we benefit defensively and our overall PPG increases.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

1 hour ago, Six Pack said:

Some just can't see it

That includes Farke too then. He quite likes McLean.

[Bonzo 198]

Pirlo played as a deep lying quarter back late on in his career. Vrancic (The Norfolk Pirlo?) could do the same type of role for us although not as a starter. 

He's probably worth more to us as a player than he is for any small fee we'd get for him.

His effectiveness when combined with the pace of Plancheta and Hernandez should make him especially worth keeping. 

If we are chasing a game he's certainly someone you'd want available as an option.