Salary caps

[Midlands Yellow 3,980]

As long as tens of millions buy the Sky package around the world the show will go on. Fans in grounds only equates to a small percentage of club revenue in the big boys league. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

The detail is irrelevant at the moment. The fact that those leagues voted to do it is a good start. There is a realisation that the wealthier clubs and super rich ones have no intention of trickle down.

The wealthy will still bring in foreign players and coaches as well as owners of course.

The proportion of foreign owners in the two leagues is small, they are mainly English.

I do fail to understand why any supporter doesn't welcome this initiative. Forget the players, they would have to accept it. Does anyone think our team at the moment is any better than previous teams that played at the top? It is about entertainment over style surely?

After 10 years, the game will adapt just as other sports have. A salary cap in Premiership rugby didn't stop the game progessing and England making another World Cup Final.

 

[ALBOWLLY 15]

On 07/08/2020 at 14:07, sonyc said:

https://www.efl.com/news/2020/august/squad-salary-caps-introduced-in-league-one-and-league-two/

A step in the right direction or will it create greater division between EPL/Championship and L1/L2?

And could the Championship follow?

It's a terrible idea. For once I agree with Gordon Taylor and The P.F.A.. The divide between The Championship and Leagues One and Two will grow even greater, with the likelihood of The Championship becoming a P.L. Two much increased. Interestingly The National League have not brought any salary caps in yet so theoretically  a player could earn more at the fifth or sixth level than at the third.

The maximum wage was abolished for good reason but people forget the lessons of history.

 

 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

After 10 years, the game will adapt just as other sports have. A salary cap in Premiership rugby didn't stop the game progessing and England making another World Cup Final.

I'm not a huge follower of rugby so I'm not an expert, but it didn't the salary cap drive an awful lot of England internationals to go play in France?

In football, the English know they have the most lucrative, most watched and arguably the best league in the world. A salary cap would would make it more competitive, but it would also mean that lots of top talent, both English and foreign, would leave the country to earn more money abroad which would reduce the overall strength of the competition and probably mean that it wouldn't be the 'best league in the world' any more.

[Indy_Bones 441]

6 hours ago, ALBOWLLY said:

The maximum wage was abolished for good reason but people forget the lessons of history.

And the footballing landscape has changed beyond belief since then as well!

We're not talking about a situation whereby back then footballers could often struggle financially despite playing for great teams, we've now got bang average players spending 70% of their time rotting on a bench earning 30k a week or more, which is a far cry from the situation when the wage cap was removed back in the day.

Anyone who thinks 'restricting' players who are earning 200k+ a week is not sensible has completely lost touch with reality.

[seanthecanary 168]

8 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

And the footballing landscape has changed beyond belief since then as well!

We're not talking about a situation whereby back then footballers could often struggle financially despite playing for great teams, we've now got bang average players spending 70% of their time rotting on a bench earning 30k a week or more, which is a far cry from the situation when the wage cap was removed back in the day.

Anyone who thinks 'restricting' players who are earning 200k+ a week is not sensible has completely lost touch with reality.

Agreed, introducing a wage cap now to restrict spending is completely different to back when Jimmy Hill wanted better pay. No one is advocating going back to a time whereby world Cup winners have to sell their medals or work at a travel agents after football. There must be a happy medium between players being underpaid and football clubs hemorrhaging huge amounts to wages, agents fees etc

[Bill 1,788]

7 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I'm not a huge follower of rugby so I'm not an expert, but it didn't the salary cap drive an awful lot of England internationals to go play in France?

In football, the English know they have the most lucrative, most watched and arguably the best league in the world. A salary cap would would make it more competitive, but it would also mean that lots of top talent, both English and foreign, would leave the country to earn more money abroad which would reduce the overall strength of the competition and probably mean that it wouldn't be the 'best league in the world' any more.

au contraire, mon ami

The salary cap is about what is affordable - not what is 'fair'

At the moment it is about what L1/L2 clubs can afford, so as to stay in business, A very necessary action to keep the game at that level afloat.

And the idea that players at a level outside of the PL could find better paid contracts at the same level outside of the UK is absurd.

Let the PL sort itself out. They are not involved in this salary cap, so it is of no consequence what they do.

Again I will ask, where is the money to come from to pay L1/L2 players when they are not even allowed a paying audience ?

[seanthecanary 168]

40 minutes ago, Bill said:

au contraire, mon ami

The salary cap is about what is affordable - not what is 'fair'

At the moment it is about what L1/L2 clubs can afford, so as to stay in business, A very necessary action to keep the game at that level afloat.

And the idea that players at a level outside of the PL could find better paid contracts at the same level outside of the UK is absurd.

Let the PL sort itself out. They are not involved in this salary cap, so it is of no consequence what they do.

Again I will ask, where is the money to come from to pay L1/L2 players when they are not even allowed a paying audience ?

All those live televised games they show of lower league football will pay the wages.... Oh wait. 

I think there is a case to be made here though that owing to the unprecedented circumstances that maybe local TV should be able show games with a share of advertising going to the clubs. I see no harm in allowing say Oldham's games to be shown on local TV, who is missing out in that scenario? 

[Fromage Frais 10]

1 hour ago, Indy_Bones said:

And the footballing landscape has changed beyond belief since then as well!

We're not talking about a situation whereby back then footballers could often struggle financially despite playing for great teams, we've now got bang average players spending 70% of their time rotting on a bench earning 30k a week or more, which is a far cry from the situation when the wage cap was removed back in the day.

Anyone who thinks 'restricting' players who are earning 200k+ a week is not sensible has completely lost touch with reality.

Agree football feels like a pyramid scheme which will fall down once the real recession/lower tv contracts come in and or other leagues rise up again.

Despite huge amounts of money many of the top teams rely on sugar daddies and even quasi government money.

We have an amazing football heritage in this country with lots of smaller teams and all dream that if they win enough they can rise up the leagues.

Sadly that dream attracts rogues who gamble with a local institution like many do with companies all over the UK borrowing and spending money on the never never.  Yes this finds its way into wages for players...but to not draw the line will result in less teams and less jobs for players in the medium long term.

A club cap would allow teams to blow all of it on one star and 10 kids if they wanted or to spread it equally.

If a sugar daddy comes along they can still get an advantage by by training facilities, coaching and developing players.

Just look at us for example we would do ok in such a system.  You may argue hey other bigger clubs can buy our players any time... but they can pretty much do that anyway.

http://www.just-football.com/2011/04/nfl-v-premier-league-socialism-v-capitalism-in-sport-format/
 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Fromage Frais

[king canary 7,605]

11 hours ago, seanthecanary said:

Well that's the big problem isn't it.  If only English leagues imposed a wage cap you would go back to the pre Premier Leagues days of the best British talent going to play in Spain, Italy, France and Germany.  It would have to come from FIFA and be worldwide to work but considering the lifestyle that comes with being a top FIFA exec it would be, as you say, like Turkeys voting for Xmas.  Beyond that is the big clubs as well.  PSG, Juventus and Bayern are not going to want to give up the stranglehold they have on their respective leagues.  Same goes for Barca and Real Madrid who get the lions share of Spanish TV monies.

Agree it ideally needs to be worldwide but fundamentally it has to start somewhere so why not in England? Yeah it might see some players leave but I think other leagues will follow. Heck, even Real Madrid have finacial issues this summer apparently, at some point owners will agree it isnt sustainable. 

[Bill 1,788]

13 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

All those live televised games they show of lower league football will pay the wages.... Oh wait. 

I think there is a case to be made here though that owing to the unprecedented circumstances that maybe local TV should be able show games with a share of advertising going to the clubs. I see no harm in allowing say Oldham's games to be shown on local TV, who is missing out in that scenario? 

That will no where near cover the cost of lost gate money, so I am not sure if this wage cap will even save those lower league clubs

What I fail to understand however,  is the constant bleats, by others, about the PL.

There has been NO talk of this.

This is a means to try and save these lower league clubs from going under, that's all

[Indy 3,298]

Just read about clubs like Maidstone who invested in a new ground to build the club to get into the football league, remind me of Kings Lynn.

Their chairman said that to take the next step up would mean a wage bill of between 1.5 million to 2 million plus running costs of around 800,000 a year. A big step up for a club of their size.

But when you consider the highest paid footballer in the premiership gets paid around 20 million a year (Kevin De Byrne, Sterling) it shows the real discrepancy in football. You need a football tax on top division where 2% of wages goes to fund lower league football during these Covid times!

Edited August 9, 2020 by Indy

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

4 hours ago, Bill said:

au contraire, mon ami

The salary cap is about what is affordable - not what is 'fair'

At the moment it is about what L1/L2 clubs can afford, so as to stay in business, A very necessary action to keep the game at that level afloat.

And the idea that players at a level outside of the PL could find better paid contracts at the same level outside of the UK is absurd.

Let the PL sort itself out. They are not involved in this salary cap, so it is of no consequence what they do.

Again I will ask, where is the money to come from to pay L1/L2 players when they are not even allowed a paying audience ?

I was referring to the Premier League, not the EFL.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

On 09/08/2020 at 12:35, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I'm not a huge follower of rugby so I'm not an expert, but it didn't the salary cap drive an awful lot of England internationals to go play in France?

In football, the English know they have the most lucrative, most watched and arguably the best league in the world. A salary cap would would make it more competitive, but it would also mean that lots of top talent, both English and foreign, would leave the country to earn more money abroad which would reduce the overall strength of the competition and probably mean that it wouldn't be the 'best league in the world' any more.

Any England international who goes to France would not be available for selection. The only exemption is players who left Saracens because they don't want to play Championship rugby, can go to France for a season and be selected.

Some, like the AllBlacks are similar to us but others, like Scotland, are not.

And in the second part of your post is talking solely about the EPL. That will take longer and cooperation from other leagues.

[Aggy 755]

On 09/08/2020 at 12:35, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I'm not a huge follower of rugby so I'm not an expert, but it didn't the salary cap drive an awful lot of England internationals to go play in France?

In football, the English know they have the most lucrative, most watched and arguably the best league in the world. A salary cap would would make it more competitive, but it would also mean that lots of top talent, both English and foreign, would leave the country to earn more money abroad which would reduce the overall strength of the competition and probably mean that it wouldn't be the 'best league in the world' any more.

I think the England rugby team had a (I think ‘unwritten’ but possibly ‘written’) rule that if you didn’t play in England you wouldn’t get picked internationally. In rugby, as with cricket, the bigger money is still playing internationally, so that had an impact. In football, I think most top players would just move abroad. 

A flat salary cap is ridiculous imo. It’s professional football, a huge industry, not kids’ footy on a park. It should be absolutely nothing to do with “competitiveness”. Who cares if big clubs with more money get more success than small boys with less money. That’s business. If people want “competitiveness” (ie; every club earning the same) then go and watch amateur Sunday league. 
 

If the idea is to stop clubs going bust, then don’t we already have financial fair play etc.? Shouldn’t that do that job? If a salary cap is required it should be based on a percentage of revenue. A flat salary cap for everyone is just stupid.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Club rugby players salaries are higher at club level particularly in France which has a  salary cap three times higher than Super Rugby players.

Exceptions are made for one maybe two star players

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

4 hours ago, Aggy said:

I think the England rugby team had a (I think ‘unwritten’ but possibly ‘written’) rule that if you didn’t play in England you wouldn’t get picked internationally. In rugby, as with cricket, the bigger money is still playing internationally, so that had an impact. In football, I think most top players would just move abroad. 

A flat salary cap is ridiculous imo. It’s professional football, a huge industry, not kids’ footy on a park. It should be absolutely nothing to do with “competitiveness”. Who cares if big clubs with more money get more success than small boys with less money. That’s business. If people want “competitiveness” (ie; every club earning the same) then go and watch amateur Sunday league. 
 

If the idea is to stop clubs going bust, then don’t we already have financial fair play etc.? Shouldn’t that do that job? If a salary cap is required it should be based on a percentage of revenue. A flat salary cap for everyone is just stupid.

You are completely right in that it isn't fair or a good idea to have a flat salary cap. Limiting the likes of Man Utd and Liverpool to the same salary cap as Bournemouth and Crystal Palace isn't fair when they generate so much more in turnover.

But a salary cap based on turnover isn't right either, because it would be impossible for any club outside the top six to break the glass ceiling, because their turnover is nowhere near the top six, so the status quo would just remain ad infinitum. 

Finding a solution that is sustainable, fair and promotes competition is incredibly tough.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

League One and Two already have a salary cap based on turnover and they have replaced it with this new cap.

It isn’t about making the League ‘fair’ it is a move to try and drive down player’s wages. 

[Aggy 755]

6 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

You are completely right in that it isn't fair or a good idea to have a flat salary cap. Limiting the likes of Man Utd and Liverpool to the same salary cap as Bournemouth and Crystal Palace isn't fair when they generate so much more in turnover.

But a salary cap based on turnover isn't right either, because it would be impossible for any club outside the top six to break the glass ceiling, because their turnover is nowhere near the top six, so the status quo would just remain ad infinitum. 

Finding a solution that is sustainable, fair and promotes competition is incredibly tough.

Isn’t that what the current ffp regime does?

[seanthecanary 168]

1 hour ago, Aggy said:

Isn’t that what the current ffp regime does?

I think that's as much to do with stopping clubs spending huge amounts on transfer fees as it is wages

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

1 hour ago, Aggy said:

Isn’t that what the current ffp regime does?

More or less, yes, but there is at least a little more flexibility and rule-bending available with FFP. A salary cap based on turnover will set the status quo in place even more firmly.

[king canary 7,605]

13 hours ago, Aggy said:

A flat salary cap is ridiculous imo. It’s professional football, a huge industry, not kids’ footy on a park. It should be absolutely nothing to do with “competitiveness”. Who cares if big clubs with more money get more success than small boys with less money. That’s business. If people want “competitiveness” (ie; every club earning the same) then go and watch amateur Sunday league

What a weird view of sports.

Sports league shouldn't be about competition? 

[sgncfc 1,227]

Salary caps are always a bad idea. This one is particularly short-sighted. The lessons of capitalism are that those who are better will try to earn more, in any industry, and football is no different. If the money is available. So the argument here is that the money isn't available and we need to protect the future of the clubs - but many of them, particularly in League 1 are actually well supported and quite wealthy (Sunderland, Portsmouth, even Ipswich) This will just mean that the standard of Leagues 1 and 2 will fall away as those players good enough to earn more move on when their current contracts expire. 

Young players won't join their academies in order to aspire to earn £1000 a week, when they can get £20k at Chelsea as an under 23.

The EPL has a completely different problem - too much money, which lets the Gibsons of this world earn £45k a week for doing sweet FA.

Effectively we now have 4 internal football structures (EPL/Champs/L1&2/National Leagues), overseen by two organisations (FA and EFL). The FA nominally runs the EPL using a Club Board with a veto but also runs the National League system. The EFL runs the Champs/L1&2. The FA is, by any measure, doing a pretty damn good job. The EFL not so much.

The EFL is being run by Rick Parry, an ex-Liverpool Chair, former CEO of the EPL and a man who is vocally critical of the concept that the EPL should subsidise or support football at lower levels. It is consequently on the path to self-destruction.

In my view, it is inevitable that the Champs will become Premier 2; why else would you have someone with Parry's experience and views as CEO? Relegation into L1 will be seen as the death of a club and will ultimately not happen. That's why those bigger clubs have to get out fast before promotion is taken off the menu.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

A lot of sports use salary caps... It does not mean great players earn less, it a collective amount up to the club to spend. A division one club could pay £1m a year for one player and £1.5m on the rest of they so wish.... That's what happens in the US...

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

No-one is discussing the EPL at the moment. We are talking about an attempt to bring some means of clubs becoming solvent and not being squeezed continually because of player wages.

The EPL cap, if it ever has one, would not be anywhere near the amounts for L1 and L2. So lets not get our knickers in a twist before there is a need.

If anyone seriously believes that player wages and contracts aren't out of control then you need therapy. Look at the ownership of L1/2 clubs, nearly all British, whereas the EPL is predominantly foreign owned. These owners have come in and ruined the game with their excesses.

I remember speaking to some of the players in the early seventies. As a printer at Jarrolds, I was earning decent money , and many of the players were only earning double what I was.

Now compare it and tell me it isn't time to bring some semblance of restraint into the game.

[Bill 1,788]

Seems pretty straight to me, so I am rather lost to know why so many are warbling on about the PL

The salary cap for L1L2 is a means to stop many of those clubs going bust - accelerated by loss of income due to TV money being a low percentage of their income

A brutal o club (no pun) fits all.... but liable to be effectively

This has NO relevance to the PL where TV money is major part of clubs incomes, and so is not such a great threat so far

Speculate when that money is dramatically cut

[king canary 7,605]

1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

Salary caps are always a bad idea. This one is particularly short-sighted. The lessons of capitalism are that those who are better will try to earn more, in any industry, and football is no different. If the money is available. So the argument here is that the money isn't available and we need to protect the future of the clubs - but many of them, particularly in League 1 are actually well supported and quite wealthy (Sunderland, Portsmouth, even Ipswich) This will just mean that the standard of Leagues 1 and 2 will fall away as those players good enough to earn more move on when their current contracts expire. 

This is just demonstrably untrue- most clubs in League One make losses.

The issue is the money for player wages clearly isn't available and too many teams chase the dream to get promoted, particularly in the Championship where the majority of the league spend at least 90% of their turnover on wages and barely anyone breaks even let alone makes a profit.

[Aggy 755]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

What a weird view of sports.

Sports league shouldn't be about competition? 

As opposed to your definition of competition which involves artificially ‘levelling the playing field’?

[Felixfan 53]

Salary caps are an artificial levelling device which suits some and not others,hence the split vote. Perhaps if we are honest there are too many clubs trying to compete at the wrong level for their means.

[cornish sam 953]

I would say go the super League route and have 2 (I think) star players whose salaries aren't counted towards the cap, but that hasn't helped them stay solvent...