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Myra Hawtree

Worst team in Europe after Lockdown

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1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

Are you talking about the Premier league or Championship season Branston ?

We played good football from the off in both. 

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25 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

We played good football from the off in both. 

i suggest you revisit the opening games in the Championship season.

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2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

"It is a sign of how brilliant the board is at PR"  

Another positive for the club then DC. Well done for pointing it out for us all. ⭐

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1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

i suggest you revisit the opening games in the Championship season.

I suggest you try and process the idea that you can play good football and not win. We played some great stuff against West Brom and against Leeds but lost both games. The worst performance we put in was the 2-0 win over Preston. 

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28 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

I suggest you try and process the idea that you can play good football and not win. We played some great stuff against West Brom and against Leeds but lost both games. The worst performance we put in was the 2-0 win over Preston. 

Yep losing 0-3 at home to Leeds and conceding 4 at home to West Brom will be remembered for the great stuff we played not forgetting the poor showing at Scum where we managed a 1-1 draw in the worst local derby in ten years.

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1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

Yep losing 0-3 at home to Leeds and conceding 4 at home to West Brom will be remembered for the great stuff we played not forgetting the poor showing at Scum where we managed a 1-1 draw in the worst local derby in ten years.

Again, try and see beyond the final score. Agh, you know what, don’t bother. It’s like trying to teach a shark to climb a tree. 
 

Win = Good

Not Win = Turrible

At least your ultra-simplistic view of the game explains the constant bouncing between Halls. 

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The consolation is that our performances had no adverse impact on our inevitable fate. The last 9 games didn’t do for us, it was the 29 before those that did,

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1 hour ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Again, try and see beyond the final score. Agh, you know what, don’t bother. It’s like trying to teach a shark to climb a tree. 
 

Win = Good

Not Win = Turrible

At least your ultra-simplistic view of the game explains the constant bouncing between Halls. 

Constant bouncing between Halls as in not since 2009 ?

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15 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Constant bouncing between Halls as in not since 2009 ?

Yes, I meant it 'literally'. It is a metaphor representative of your flitting between loving it when we win the league and harrumphing your displeasure everywhere when we get relegated. Especially apt this time as it's essentially the same group. Same owners, same sporting director, same manager, largely the same players; City Hall "aren't they good", St Andrew's Hall "Foot stamp, embarrassment, headsa gotta rooool".

I mean, I suppose I could have just called you fickle...😉

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Duncan Edwards said:

I suggest you try and process the idea that you can play good football and not win. We played some great stuff against West Brom and against Leeds but lost both games. The worst performance we put in was the 2-0 win over Preston. 

This is spot on.  Some really don’t get it, which is quite astonishing.

I went to 25 Norwich games and countless others last season and still maintain that our first half v WBA was as good as I saw a side play.  We lost only because of a goalkeeping howler and defensive errors (something that we didn’t shake all season)

Edited by Branston Pickle
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Posted (edited)

This simply suggests that our defence was ineffective. A problem which, of course, has been cruelly exposed this season.

Edited by Highland Canary

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8 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

The problem is that if we just look a bit of a mess but scrape results, that can cover over cracks that can become massive crevices.  

Last season the signs were clearly there from the off for anyone that could see beyond the slightly iffy results - and Farke was apparently under pressure from some supporters as a result.  What I’m saying is that we need to look at the performance and ‘signs’ rather than purely the results.  

I don’t think performances will be enough for Farke. Points on the board, he keeps his job. Nice football but no results, I think he’ll be sacked pretty quickly.

Depends what you mean by performances as well though. If we!re talking about papering over cracks, I’d argue Pukki’s ridiculous form in the championship winning season papered over some pretty massive cracks defensively. If we play well going forward but still look woeful at the back is that any good? Whilst you’d obviously take winning the league on any occasion, winning it again like we did last time seems a bit ‘pointless’ - we’ll just come straight back down again. We need to see improvevent defensively, look more solid and better organised. If that means we don’t look “great” performance wise for a while until we get into the groove but scrape out results, I’d take that over us playing nice football but still not picking up points. 
 

Confidence is the other big point for us this season, because we’re very short on it after the season just gone. Nice football but losses doesn’t build confidence. Scrappy wins, with a solid base to build on, does.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Aggy said:

I don’t think performances will be enough for Farke. Points on the board, he keeps his job. Nice football but no results, I think he’ll be sacked pretty quickly.

 

A remarkable turnaround from the days of Hughton when the mantra was that the fans didn't care about the result, they just wanted to see good, attacking football. 

And you are right, scoring more goals than the opposition did paper over those gaping chasms. 

It amazes me, really it does. We've gone from the best team ever to be relegated to the worst side since christendom and not content with basing our season review purely on post-lockdown performances (admittedly, largely poor) we also seek to devalue what was (arguably) the most exciting season of football I've seen us play as lucky and papering over cracks.

To be honest, you guys are probably right as I seem to be firmly in the minority but God, isn't it depressing. Think I'll jack it in. 

Edited by Duncan Edwards
Clarification
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18 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Yep losing 0-3 at home to Leeds and conceding 4 at home to West Brom will be remembered for the great stuff we played not forgetting the poor showing at Scum where we managed a 1-1 draw in the worst local derby in ten years.

Thats the spirit, remember the few poor results, not performances ,out of what was a great, if not perfect season. Must be tough when only perfection will do. Still it must be hard to be humble, when you know you're one of the best. 😆👍😉😇

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17 hours ago, Highland Canary said:

It’s winning football matches that matters.

Yes, thats is Important, but not even Man   city or liverpool ....the two best teams in the country managed to go unbeaten this season, in fact , if memory serves me well, only Arsenal have managed that in either top two divisions in recent years. Dont let that stop your childish , only winning matters mentality. Ffs even uber twonk Roy Keane would concede that its very difficult not to lose sometines. 

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28 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

A remarkable turnaround from the days of Hughton when the mantra was that the fans didn't care about the result, they just wanted to see good, attacking football. 

And you are right, scoring more goals than the opposition did paper over those gaping chasms. 

It amazes me, really it does. We've gone from the best team ever to be relegated to the worst side since christendom and not content with basing our season review purely on post-lockdown performances (admittedly, largely poor) we also seek to devalue what was (arguably) the most exciting season of football I've seen us play as lucky and papering over cracks.

To be honest, you guys are probably right as I seem to be firmly in the minority but God, isn't it depressing. Think I'll jack it in. 

Depressing that I want the club to win games of football? 
 

If you want to jack it in because a poster said he would prefer the club to win games scruffily at the start of the season whilst new signings gel and we build to something better (as opposed to play well and get no points) then yeah, I reckon you probably should jack it in. 

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8 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Depressing that I want the club to win games of football? 
 

If you want to jack it in because a poster said he would prefer the club to win games scruffily at the start of the season whilst new signings gel and we build to something better (as opposed to play well and get no points) then yeah, I reckon you probably should jack it in. 

No, depressing that when we lose we're crap and when we win we're lucky. But you're right, I should jack it in. Not because of you, though. 

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Imagine if we'd gone 0-3 behind to Forest in the game after that magic switch where we went from awful to brilliant. Or 2-3 to Millwall. But of course we were playing so much better by then....

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On 04/08/2020 at 08:41, Making Plans said:

With a pathetic record like that Farke must be on borrowed time.

If he doesn't get us out of the rut we're in the first 10 games of next season then he won't last long.

The pressure is on.

You predicted his demise 2 years ago, telling us that if he stayed we would switch divisions. You got it right we would switch divisions but you said League 1 rather than the EPL. 
Be careful what you wish for.

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33 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Imagine if we'd gone 0-3 behind to Forest in the game after that magic switch where we went from awful to brilliant. Or 2-3 to Millwall. But of course we were playing so much better by then....

This is incorrect.

The done thing is to devalue what we achieve while maximising the sheer horror of any negative. Winning the title was lucky because some players were playing well and that papered over the cracks of truth, the truth being that we were really absolute pony. Whilst our post-lockdown performances EXACTLY mirrored those that went before and we are the worst Norwich team ever and look at all these meaningless statistics to prove it and the lockdown is NOT mitigation because look at Luton. Or something. 

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1 hour ago, Duncan Edwards said:

No, depressing that when we lose we're crap and when we win we're lucky. But you're right, I should jack it in. Not because of you, though. 

When did I say anything about luck? You seem to be making things up so you can have a moan. 

We can deservedly win games without being great defensively. Unfortunately when you get promoted and the opposition defences are better, you score fewer goals. If you aren’t great defensively, then your wins turn into draws and losses because you no longer our score opponents. That’s why we need to this season tighten up and find more balance - not play long ball, but continue to improve as a team and become more balanced.

Or are you suggesting that, because we were good two seasons ago, we should not try to improve? 
 

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1 hour ago, Duncan Edwards said:

This is incorrect.

The done thing is to devalue what we achieve while maximising the sheer horror of any negative. Winning the title was lucky because some players were playing well and that papered over the cracks of truth, the truth being that we were really absolute pony. Whilst our post-lockdown performances EXACTLY mirrored those that went before and we are the worst Norwich team ever and look at all these meaningless statistics to prove it and the lockdown is NOT mitigation because look at Luton. Or something. 

I know.

I shall have to review how I see football. Because I was sure we played at least twice as well in those WBA and Leeds games as we did in the Forest and Millwall games. 🙃

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21 minutes ago, Aggy said:

When did I say anything about luck? You seem to be making things up so you can have a moan. 

We can deservedly win games without being great defensively. Unfortunately when you get promoted and the opposition defences are better, you score fewer goals. If you aren’t great defensively, then your wins turn into draws and losses because you no longer our score opponents. That’s why we need to this season tighten up and find more balance - not play long ball, but continue to improve as a team and become more balanced.

Or are you suggesting that, because we were good two seasons ago, we should not try to improve? 
 

What are you on about? 

I said that I found it depressing that I was in the minority - what i meant was I'd still prefer us to play an exciting brand of attacking football and that I haven't sought to devalue what we did as title winners or conveniently forgot the good parts of the Premier League season. I find that revisionism depressing. 

You've then decided that I meant it was depressing that you wanted Norwich to win some games of football🤷‍♂️. I've responded by explaining I'm fed up with good things being apportioned to luck and bad things being deemed "spot on". I also pointed out that my "Jack it in" comment was nothing to do with you. I perhaps should have been clearer that I was explaining my comment, not saying you had said we were lucky. Although if I wanted an argument it wouldn't be outlandish to think that if you paper over cracks and it holds that it might be deemed fortunate. But I don't. 👍

As for your last line, and you accuse me of making things up😂

 

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Posted (edited)
On ‎04‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 10:31, nutty nigel said:

The happy clappers have actually come out of this rather well. With 19 goals from the 14 games they could clap and 0 goals from the 5 games without them we can see that the Carrow Road clappers are worth 1.357 goals per game putting them top of the 'most valuable supporters before lockdown' table.

👏👏👏👏👏

Yes, if only us fans could've been there versus Southampton, we then would've outmatched them mentally, physically and tactically - instead of being absolutely embarrassed in every single department... If only the fans were there to stop our team being knackered after 60 minutes while the opposition ran rings round us...

I'm not sure how much you truly back this view, but you seem very dead set in your mind that it is the lack of home support that caused our post-lockdown demise. Although I take the compliment that you feel our fans are somehow superior at willing the team on than other teams' fans, I'm not entirely sure that's the case - nor am I sure how you can justify it.

To my mind, it is much more likely that the players were - for whatever reason - ill-prepared during a 4 months break in the season to put together anything resembling a fight. The injury to Zimmerman was also a blow of course.

But it seems to you that:

Worst form in Europe post-lockdown = we have the best fans in Europe?

In fact, we are the only fanbase in Europe whose team cannot remotely perform or even score at home without our presence...

Thanks Nutty, quite the compliment!

Edited by Hank shoots Skyler

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1 hour ago, Duncan Edwards said:

This is incorrect.

The done thing is to devalue what we achieve while maximising the sheer horror of any negative. Winning the title was lucky because some players were playing well and that papered over the cracks of truth, the truth being that we were really absolute pony. 

Hello Duncan,

Having read this entire thread, I'm not certain where this has all come from.

Who's devaluing our achievements? I don't think pointing out our defense wasn't the best in our promotion winning season is doing that - do you actually disagree with that? Fans are of course going to be on a bit of downer at the mo; that's hardly unexpected. It would be best to avoid the forum until the new season if it upsets you; it's really not worth getting down about. 🙂 

1 hour ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Whilst our post-lockdown performances EXACTLY mirrored those that went before and we are the worst Norwich team ever and look at all these meaningless statistics to prove it and the lockdown is NOT mitigation because look at Luton. Or something. 

Again, I'm not sure who has indicated on this thread that our performances before lockdown were the same as after. They were bad before lockdown, terrible after. Either way, we were going down. C'est la vie! Worst Norwich side? In the Premier League, yes - the facts don't lie, however uncomfortable they may be to read. Worst ever ever ever? Who said that?

You've got enough strawmen in that post to make a decent bonfire! 😉

Anyway, off for a walk in the North Yorkshire moors. Have a good rest of your day. Tally Ho! 👍

OTBC

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4 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Yes, if only us fans could've been there versus Southampton, we then would've outmatched them mentally, physically and tactically - instead of being absolutely embarrassed in every single department... If only the fans were there to stop our team being knackered after 60 minutes while the opposition ran rings round us...

I'm not sure how much you truly back this view, but you seem very dead set in your mind that it is the lack of home support that caused our post-lockdown demise. Although I take the compliment that you feel our fans are somehow superior at willing the team on than other teams' fans, I'm not entirely sure that's the case - nor am I sure how you can justify it.

To my mind, it is much more likely that the players were - for whatever reason - ill-prepared during a 4 months break in the season to put together anything resembling a fight. The injury to Zimmerman was also a blow of course.

But it seems to you that:

Worst form in Europe post-lockdown = we have the best fans in Europe?

In fact, we are the only fanbase in Europe whose team cannot remotely perform or even score at home without our presence...

Thanks Nutty, quite the compliment!

I mean, I note the sarcasm, but I'm yet to hear any other credible explanation for the disparity in performances pre and post enforced break. 

It is the one question I'd like to see properly addressed. 

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2 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Hello Duncan,

Having read this entire thread, I'm not certain where this has all come from.

Who's devaluing our achievements? I don't think pointing out our defense wasn't the best in our promotion winning season is doing that - do you actually disagree with that? Fans are of course going to be on a bit of downer at the mo; that's hardly unexpected. It would be best to avoid the forum until the new season if it upsets you; it's really not worth getting down about. 🙂 

Again, I'm not sure who has indicated on this thread that our performances before lockdown were the same as after. They were bad before lockdown, terrible after. Either way, we were going down. C'est la vie! Worst Norwich side? In the Premier League, yes - the facts don't lie, however uncomfortable they may be to read. Worst ever ever ever? Who said that?

You've got enough strawmen in that post to make a decent bonfire! 😉

Anyway, off for a walk in the North Yorkshire moors. Have a good rest of your day. Tally Ho! 👍

OTBC

Thanks for the advice. 

Don't get lost. 

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1 hour ago, Duncan Edwards said:

I mean, I note the sarcasm, but I'm yet to hear any other credible explanation for the disparity in performances pre and post enforced break. 

It is the one question I'd like to see properly addressed. 

Its hard to pinpoint exactly without behind-the-scenes knowledge, but I believe something went wrong internally. Our nosedive was so catastrophic it simply cannot just be a result of the external factors such as the lockdown and lack of fans - these factors impacted every other club. Or the injury of Zimmerman - we coped with worse injury problems pretty well all throughout the season.

So whether that is the manager and coaching staff failing to get the players into gear, or the players themselves losing focus, I cannot say. But it certainly seems plausible to me that some of the players may have had half an eye on future moves rather than the current campaign. Or members of the squad simply lost their mental 'edge' and focus somewhat during the break. Note - I'm not suggesting any players didn't try at all, but I do certainly question if the overall commitment of the team was equal to that of earlier in the season.

Then you have the simple issue of fitness on the return, why were the team visibly so lacking in energy versus Southampton? Again, this is not something impacted by the external factors at hand, but purely an outcome of our training and preparation (or lack there of). Maybe you have a different take on the Southampton game, but in my mind it was an extremely disheartening - and at times embarrassing - display from about the 5th minute to the final whistle.

Now, whether that is because of supporter absence or because we were ill-prepared, cannot be ascertained by just looking at our own performances. But when you consider all clubs had to face mostly the same problems we did, yet we are the only club whose form fell off an absolute cliff in all of Europe - I strongly believe the problems must therefore have been* within the club rather than caused by anything outside of our control.

Does that differ to your take on our downturn?

*Note the use of 'have been' within the club, as all that **** is out of the way now. With the next season approaching and new signings rolling in, I'm confident whatever the issue was - it will have been squeezed out by Webber and we will hopefully come back stronger!

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5 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Thats the spirit, remember the few poor results, not performances ,out of what was a great, if not perfect season. Must be tough when only perfection will do. Still it must be hard to be humble, when you know you're one of the best. 😆👍😉😇

Those were the results from the start of the season in the month of August 2018 but apparently we played well from the word go if you bother to read the post i was quoting.

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