Flynn Downes

[Mason 47 1,373]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Happens everywhere to be fair- I remember us being all excited about the Jarvis brothers for example.

Oh for sure- Luke Daley scored a hattrick against Arsenal reserves once upon a time and the hype around him skyrocketed. I remember Bally Smart was potentially going to be the fastest player ever to grace the game at one point, too.

The difference between us and Ipswich is we didn't then start looking at how Rossi Jarvis could be exactly what Gerrard and Lampard needed to really push on in their international careers.

Actually- Lakey might've done. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

I can remember similar hype around Paul Hayes after he scored a brace against Arsenal in a friendly.

Never kicked a ball for our first team but did have a decent little career and played a fair bit of Championship football. 

There was probably a period of time after leaving when we were really crap and he was playing Championship football where he would have got in our team easily, Roeder/Gunn days. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[king canary 7,562]

5 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I got excited by Jamar Loza 😆

Probably still would be today if I were a King's Lynn fan to be fair. 

I can remember overhearing a mate of my dad's in a pub before a Norwich game talking about this kid we had breaking records in the youth team who was definitely the next Teddy Sheringham/Alan Shearer/Insert good domestic strikers at the time.

His name was Adrian Coote. 

Ha, amazing.

I do think we dropped the ball on a couple of recent youngsters- McGeehan and Toffolo from the youth cup winning squad both had something in my opinion and should have been given a chance to break through but Alex Neil didn't seem to fancy either of them.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

6 minutes ago, king canary said:

Ha, amazing.

I do think we dropped the ball on a couple of recent youngsters- McGeehan and Toffolo from the youth cup winning squad both had something in my opinion and should have been given a chance to break through but Alex Neil didn't seem to fancy either of them.

I did find it a bit odd that we allowed Toffolo to leave for free to Millwall when £1m James Husband was in our first team squad.

I'm not saying Toffolo is a world beater but he looked reliable enough in the few games he played for us, and that's much more than could be said for Husband, and he'd impressed on loan at Scunthorpe the year before.

That decision was made under Farke/Webber though, not Alex Neil. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[king canary 7,562]

4 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I did find it a bit odd that we allowed Toffolo to leave for free to Millwall when £1m James Husband was in our first team squad.

I'm not saying Toffolo is a world beater but he looked reliable enough in the few games he played for us, and that's much more than could be said for Husband, and he'd impressed on loan at Scunthorpe the year before.

That decision was made under Farke/Webber though, not Alex Neil. 

I think by that point he may have just wanted yo leave.

I think Webber was spot on when he said we didn't have a joined up plan to help players graduate from the youth teams into the first team and Toffolo was a bit of a victim of this. 

[BroadstairsR 2,137]

A lot of very promising youngsters never seem to make it.

Promising on the field of play but those who have to spend the money with care and coaches with awareness also look to other things like character, dedication and the ability to work through the tough process of becoming the creme de la creme; even if that only means a place in a Championship squad.

We judge a book by it's cover. The decision makers see the whole package. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by BroadstairsR

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Well Leeds can't be our feeder team anymore can they, they've finally overtaken us. 

Patience Teemu, patience. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

35 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

A lot of very promising youngsters never seem to make it.

Apparently in those Bellamy/Eadie/Green etc few years where our academy was churning out talent constantly, one player the club had huge hopes for was Jamie Shore. Unfortunately suffered serious injuries and didn't make it. They felt he could go to the very top. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[kick it off 1,948]

1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Reece James is a CHELSEA player. He was on loan at Wigan last season and has made a number of appearances for Chelsea this season! 

Yes... all of that is true... not sure what your point is though, none of that is news to me. The discussion was around the logic of saying Downes couldn't be good because he played for the scum when they went down. Reece James is an example of a player that excelled in a struggling team... like Cantwell did this year which was the other example given.... not sure which bit of that was hard to follow if I'm honest

[The Raptor 1,199]

Asked my mate from Ipswich about him.  Says he's hardly set league one alight. They'd be happy to get any money for him. Then sent me this quote (not his a town forum) proving that every club has ridiculously deluded fans.

 

'All I'm saying is Downes is a premier league player yet we're holding out for £4m while Brum are selling a 17 year old for £25m.'.  

 

 

[king canary 7,562]

40 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

A lot of very promising youngsters never seem to make it.

Promising on the field of play but those who have to spend the money with care and coaches with awareness also look to other things like character, dedication and the ability to work through the tough process of becoming the creme de la creme; even if that only means a place in a Championship squad.

We judge a book by it's cover. The decision makers see the whole package. 

Youth development is a fascinating topic because there are so many different elements that go into what makes a player succeed or not.

I think some assume that because a player like McGeehan or Toffolo end up as lower end Championship players that that is all they could have been, yet I think with the right management/coaching they could have been more, just as an Aarons or Godfrey under the wrong manager could have never made it into our first team set up.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

16 minutes ago, king canary said:

Youth development is a fascinating topic because there are so many different elements that go into what makes a player succeed or not.

I think some assume that because a player like McGeehan or Toffolo end up as lower end Championship players that that is all they could have been, yet I think with the right management/coaching they could have been more, just as an Aarons or Godfrey under the wrong manager could have never made it into our first team set up.

I really wonder what would have become of Jamal Lewis had Farke and Webber not come along. It often gets quoted but Alan Irvine saying there was no one in the academy that could get into the Norwich team anytime soon, just a few months before Jamal made his debut and has barely looked back since. 

It seems that although people liked Aarons, no one in the academy was really expecting him to get serious first team minutes at Norwich. It just shows how broken the link between the academy and the first team was. Webber has talked about how things were so separated between the two when he first arrived and they both seemed to operate in a bubble without regard for each other. He talked about how Norwich almost lost James Maddison as there was no clear path for him in the team until Farke came in. There is a strange irony that a large part of the reason Alex Neil was plucked from Hamilton was his track record of giving young players games and Hamilton's focus on their academy. 

As for youth player development, for something so studied and valuable for clubs, very little is really known about it. Players don't develop in a linear way, and knowing who will suddenly have a development burst or halt is pretty much impossible. Also injuries can completely halt development, losing just a few months when younger can move a player from top of their cohort to the bottom. I find it a fascinating area - especially the studies around when a player's birthday is can really hinder development. Born the wrong side of the cut off date and a player could lose almost an entire year of youth football.

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

41 minutes ago, king canary said:

Youth development is a fascinating topic because there are so many different elements that go into what makes a player succeed or not.

I think some assume that because a player like McGeehan or Toffolo end up as lower end Championship players that that is all they could have been, yet I think with the right management/coaching they could have been more, just as an Aarons or Godfrey under the wrong manager could have never made it into our first team set up.

Yep, and a lot of the negative types seem to think that Godfrey, Aarons, Lewis etc "just happened" and we were lucky. Not many other clubs are bringing through the volume of young players that we are and with extra money to spend that could/should accelerate.

[king canary 7,562]

17 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I really wonder what would have become of Jamal Lewis had Farke and Webber not come along. It often gets quoted but Alan Irvine saying there was no one in the academy that could get into the Norwich team anytime soon, just a few months before Jamal made his debut and has barely looked back since. 

It seems that although people liked Aarons, no one in the academy was really expecting him to get serious first team minutes at Norwich. It just shows how broken the link between the academy and the first team was. Webber has talked about how things were so separated between the two when he first arrived and they both seemed to operate in a bubble without regard for each other. He talked about how Norwich almost lost James Maddison as there was no clear path for him in the team until Farke came in. There is a strange irony that a large part of the reason Alex Neil was plucked from Hamilton was his track record of giving young players games and Hamilton's focus on their academy. 

As for youth player development, for something so studied and valuable for clubs, very little is really known about it. Players don't develop in a linear way, and knowing who will suddenly have a development burst or halt is pretty much impossible. Also injuries can completely halt development, losing just a few months when younger can move a player from top of their cohort to the bottom. I find it a fascinating area - especially the studies around when a player's birthday is can really hinder development. Born the wrong side of the cut off date and a player could lose almost an entire year of youth football.

 

This probably sounds a bit stupid but Lewis is also very interesting as there was no real buzz about him anywhere- I often can get a bit of an idea about who the better prospects are from FM (they rated Cantwell, Aarons, the Murphy's before they were near the first team for instance) but Lewis just wasn't on the radar at all.

Separate topic but I'm also intrigued a bit by how Lewis is viewed inside the club. Linked with lesser teams like Palace and Stoke, has had a highly rted young player signed to play his position and seemingly only got back in the team over Byram when he got injured. I do wonder if Farke/Webber are that attached to him.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,154]

57 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Yes... all of that is true... not sure what your point is though, none of that is news to me. The discussion was around the logic of saying Downes couldn't be good because he played for the scum when they went down. Reece James is an example of a player that excelled in a struggling team... like Cantwell did this year which was the other example given.... not sure which bit of that was hard to follow if I'm honest

Okay, fair enough - I thought you meant that Reece James was another lower level player (like Flynn Downes) that we should be looking at. 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

This probably sounds a bit stupid but Lewis is also very interesting as there was no real buzz about him anywhere- I often can get a bit of an idea about who the better prospects are from FM (they rated Cantwell, Aarons, the Murphy's before they were near the first team for instance) but Lewis just wasn't on the radar at all.

Separate topic but I'm also intrigued a bit by how Lewis is viewed inside the club. Linked with lesser teams like Palace and Stoke, has had a highly rted young player signed to play his position and seemingly only got back in the team over Byram when he got injured. I do wonder if Farke/Webber are that attached to him.

Out of all the 'crown jewels' I think Lewis is the one they would probably like to sell the most - especially as McCallum is already in the building.

All I can think of with Lewis is he had a development spike, or the change in Norwich's style suddenly meant he was a viable option. Left backs are a bit of a rare breed apparently, left footed players are always at a premium and the best ones are pushed to becoming attackers. Norwich signed Husband to be first choice left back after a good loans with Fulham and with Webber at Huddersfield - it suggests that Norwich didn't see Lewis as a first choice option straight away. For whatever reason Husband didn't work out, and Lewis was there to step up. He could have easily fallen through the gaps, like many other young players have across the country, if Husband had continued his good form from his previous teams. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I can remember similar hype around Paul Hayes after he scored a brace against Arsenal in a friendly.

Never kicked a ball for our first team but did have a decent little career and played a fair bit of Championship football. 

There was probably a period of time after leaving when we were really crap and he was playing Championship football where he would have got in our team easily, Roeder/Gunn days. 

Adrian Coote used to bang serious numbers of goals in for the Reserves, I think he had a 30 goal plus season, and some fans used to clamour for him to become a regular starter. But every time he made a first team appearance he looked pretty awful.

[non-scoring strikers 112]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Adrian Coote used to bang serious numbers of goals in for the Reserves, I think he had a 30 goal plus season, and some fans used to clamour for him to become a regular starter. But every time he made a first team appearance he looked pretty awful.

Belton's finest milkman.

[king canary 7,562]

12 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Out of all the 'crown jewels' I think Lewis is the one they would probably like to sell the most - especially as McCallum is already in the building.

All I can think of with Lewis is he had a development spike, or the change in Norwich's style suddenly meant he was a viable option. Left backs are a bit of a rare breed apparently, left footed players are always at a premium and the best ones are pushed to becoming attackers. Norwich signed Husband to be first choice left back after a good loans with Fulham and with Webber at Huddersfield - it suggests that Norwich didn't see Lewis as a first choice option straight away. For whatever reason Husband didn't work out, and Lewis was there to step up. He could have easily fallen through the gaps, like many other young players have across the country, if Husband had continued his good form from his previous teams. 

It is interesting to look back- I just found an interview with him where he talks about being involved in first team training for 6 months under Alex Neil (due to Dijks being the only senior left back at the club) which I hadn't realised. He really did fly under the radar.

[BroadstairsR 2,137]

9 minutes ago, king canary said:

It is interesting to look back- I just found an interview with him where he talks about being involved in first team training for 6 months under Alex Neil (due to Dijks being the only senior left back at the club) which I hadn't realised. He really did fly under the radar.

Difficult one. I have assessed Lewis as being a clever little footballer with a (footballing) brain. Aarons on the other hand gets most of the plaudits because he is a tough little footballer and who, by comparison makes Lewis seem frail. Not that he is particularly frail, just young, and it's a comparison not a criticism.

Aarons demands a higher fee than the two, it would seem, but I wouldn't want to lose either in equal proportions.

There's more than meets the eye in young Lewis and these stories about his breakthrough into the first choice confirm this.

[paddycanary 538]

4 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

Oh for sure- Luke Daley scored a hattrick against Arsenal reserves once upon a time and the hype around him skyrocketed. I remember Bally Smart was potentially going to be the fastest player ever to grace the game at one point, too.

The difference between us and Ipswich is we didn't then start looking at how Rossi Jarvis could be exactly what Gerrard and Lampard needed to really push on in their international careers.

Actually- Lakey might've done. 

If I remember correctly, Bally Smart never made it due to a lack of in-game intelligence & difficulty reading the play

[FenwayFrank 2,450]

I would think that there are a number of our new posters on here that have seen quite a lot of Flynn Downes

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Lee Power, Ryan Jarvis, Akinbyi, Broughton were all going to be top strikers but only because they played a couple of decent games and the hype followed.

Those lads had promise and a bit of talent but nothing else.

[NeymarSmith 130]

I think we can do better than flynn downes. I feel we they would want top money (in their eyes) and probably more than he is worth especially to sell to us. Ditto wolfenden. 

If we are letting klose leave, as well as raggett and sell Godfrey, clearly we need someone to come in (as if we didn't already) 

Would anyone take Cameron Carter VIckers from spurs? 

He's early 20s, has a year left of one his contract and is strong and fast. Think he was.actually on loan to ipship at one point. No idea if he's played out his skin this season at Luton, but surely worth a look and will be a reasonable price?

[Bill 1,788]

4 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Yep, and a lot of the negative types seem to think that Godfrey, Aarons, Lewis etc "just happened" and we were lucky. Not many other clubs are bringing through the volume of young players that we are and with extra money to spend that could/should accelerate.

There is an element of 'hit and hope' with our current development set up.

However that happens elsewhere with £10m plus players as well.

The club now seems to have not only an excellent scouting system that has identified 'unknowns' to develop - but an excellent coaching system to then develop as much as possible

So it is a case of making your own 'luck' ie as above, it hasn't just happened. We set out to do this and so far it is working....extremely well

[Pugin 601]

Teddy Bishop is the Ipswich player that would be worth a gamble. Hideous recent injury record, but a quality player. He came on towards the end of our most recent clash, and we couldn't get him off the ball without fouling him. Obvious then that he is a better player than Tommy T etc.

 

 

[Dr Greenthumb 746]

21 hours ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Don't think I've ever seen a player sign a contract in July and then be sold in the next month or two. 

Martin Olsson did it for us

[BroadstairsR 2,137]

15 hours ago, NeymarSmith said:

I think we can do better than flynn downes. I feel we they would want top money (in their eyes) and probably more than he is worth especially to sell to us. Ditto wolfenden. 

If we are letting klose leave, as well as raggett and sell Godfrey, clearly we need someone to come in (as if we didn't already) 

Would anyone take Cameron Carter VIckers from spurs? 

He's early 20s, has a year left of one his contract and is strong and fast. Think he was.actually on loan to ipship at one point. No idea if he's played out his skin this season at Luton, but surely worth a look and will be a reasonable price?

Cameron Carter-Vickers was a success at ITFC, strong rugged type.

Worth a look.

 

 

[dylanisabaddog 4,848]

I saw Downes twice last season. He would struggle to get in to a bottom half Premier League team. A bit like the lad we had on loan from Southampton whose name escapes me. 

Wolfenden looked very good to me but it's very difficult to judge lower league defenders. They very rarely come up against talented opposition and no one with the pace of the average Premier League forward. 

[BroadstairsR 2,137]

 "A bit like the lad we had on loan from Southampton whose name escapes me."

 

Harrison Reed.

Wow! What knowledge(for me at least.)

I would guess him to be a bit better than Downes, tbh.