Formation discussion

[Big O 287]

All, 

Under DF we have predominantly played the 4-2-3-1 formation that at times has seen us play some wonderful fluid football but perhaps always left us looking fragile defensively. I know it’s a bit of a how long is a piece of string question given the potential fluidity of players but how do people think we should set up going forward? 

I do think we could set ourselves up in the Liverpool 4-3-3 formation but this would require more pace and goals from our front three but with cantwell and potentially buendia off, this might be why were linked to the polish winger, more pace and power through the team.

 

thoughts? 

[wcorkcanary 4,784]

The 4231 system can be very solid defensively IF the 2 in front of the back four are good at positional awareness,tracking runners, tackling,covering for advanced fullbacks AND good on the ball . We just dont have 2,let alone cover, that are good enough to do this effectively. We have Tettso plus AN Other. Not knocking Alex but his best years are behind him and anyone he's been partenered with has not been up to the job. 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 are basically the same formation, it just depends on how you alter the player roles, in the Championship when Stiepermann played he'd often drop into midfield and Tettey would sit just in front of the back 4.

Farke's preferred formation when he first arrived was 4-1-4-1 (which is the same as 4-3-3 but with deeper wide men). Norwich altered to 4-2-3-1 to accommodate Maddison who couldn't do the role of an 8 and was best deployed higher up the pitch with less defensive duties.

Throughout anyone game you are likely to see 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and 4-1-4-1 used depending on the game state and whether Norwich are in possession.

It seems that Farke wanted to play a 5 at the back more this season - which is part of the reason Amadou was brought in as he played this role at Lille, but his centre backs were always injured so didn't get the chance to deploy it. 

Next season I'd like to see Norwich being a bit more aggressive high up the pitch, they use a low block currently which can invite a bit too much pressure onto the team. I think Farke's tactics are better suited to being the aggressor rather than the defensive team - which is part of the reason they didn't translate well to the Prem. Other teams always felt they were favourites and thus the emphasis was on them to attack. In the Championship winning season, teams were wary of Norwich's quality so often sat back. Norwich excelled when teams let them have the ball as they had enough guile to create chances against pretty much any Championship defence. 

 

[sgncfc 1,330]

I'd love to see us play with a back 3 with Lewis and Aarons as wingbacks, but we don't have enough cover in the squad defensively. Next season the most important thing for me is to make us a better defensive unit. If Farke goes with the same formation and the same players at the back, unsurprisingly the same thing will happen.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

7 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

I'd love to see us play with a back 3 with Lewis and Aarons as wingbacks, but we don't have enough cover in the squad defensively. Next season the most important thing for me is to make us a better defensive unit. If Farke goes with the same formation and the same players at the back, unsurprisingly the same thing will happen.

If it is winning the league and being promoted can handle that!

[Mello Yello 2,572]

Against Man City we should adopt the very rarely utilised 'damage limitation 1-10 klingfilm formation'....Timmy Krul in goal and 10 outfield players evenly and laterally spaced across the width of our goal just slightly in front of him.....

 

 

Before the Man City game, Tim also needs to source a pair of gloves like Grobbelaar is wearing in this piccy....

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

Personally, I'd prefer to see three at the back with wing-backs, but then with the ability to change to something like a 4-3-2-1, where the 2 can either be wingers, attacking midfielders, or a combination of the two. Definitely think we need two more defensive midfielders in there, and we're certainly a centre-half light - if not two. Wonder if Raggett and Famewo will get their chances in the Championship, especially as the tooth of time seems to be gnawing at Klose now?

Edited July 20, 2020 by TheGunnShow

[vlad666 207]

3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Personally, I'd prefer to see three at the back with wing-backs, but then with the ability to change to something like a 4-3-2-1, where the 2 can either be wingers, attacking midfielders, or a combination of the two. Definitely think we need two more defensive midfielders in there, and we're certainly a centre-half light - if not two. Wonder if Raggett and Famewo will get their chances in the Championship, especially as the tooth of time seems to be gnawing at Klose now?

Raggett has said he’s now a free agent as Norwich havent contacted him since before the lockdown. Said the time for taking up the year extension has passed. Surprised they’ve treated him this way. Not very professional. 

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

1 minute ago, vlad666 said:

Raggett has said he’s now a free agent as Norwich havent contacted him since before the lockdown. Said the time for taking up the year extension has passed. Surprised they’ve treated him this way. Not very professional. 

Just checked - fair point. Shame. This would seem to show he's a free agent now. Clearly Farke didn't fancy him. Must be keen on having a good close look at Famewo then, considering he got special dispensation to get him on the bench for the Burnley match after he'd been on loan up at St. Mirren.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/sean-raggett/profil/spieler/226219

[Dr Greenthumb 794]

We need to press from the front more, the forward players have dropped too deep this season and it is telling with our lack of goals.

[cambridgeshire canary 7,798]

Would a 5 at the back work for us? We sure need to shore up the defence as it is..

[Number9 272]

32 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

We need to press from the front more, the forward players have dropped too deep this season and it is telling with our lack of goals.

The forward players recently have been spending alot of time back deep in their own half.

Sometimes Max and Jamal are way up the pitch when Emi & Todd were back defending, it didn't seem balanced, I recall wondering whether it was a tactic they've been instructed to do or not. 

[Dr Greenthumb 794]

1 hour ago, Number9 said:

The forward players recently have been spending alot of time back deep in their own half.

Sometimes Max and Jamal are way up the pitch when Emi & Todd were back defending, it didn't seem balanced, I recall wondering whether it was a tactic they've been instructed to do or not. 

The wingers and full backs interchanged a lot last season, but they were all braver being further forward. This season, it seems only 2 of the 4 can attack.

Our strikers are too far back and the fact we had Idah and Pukki in our penalty area defending in the 86th minute when we were 1-0 down was a sorry site to see and it annoyed me! 

[wcorkcanary 4,784]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Would a 5 at the back work for us? We sure need to shore up the defence as it is..

No. No and No.Five at the back unless full backs are told not to cross the halfway line is really 3 at the back, sure, you could play 5 but then what? Wingers for width? thats 7 outfield players used up already , do you want a solid midfied? Theres your 10, or do you suggest 5-4-1  with wingers tucking in to load the midfield , and an isolated striker. 5 at the back in the last few mins maybe ,if we're trying to hold on to something. I d rather lose games than play that way from ko. Formations are fluid of course but the intent stated in '5 at the back' is not how I want to see footy played. Thanks for all the threads though, you do get paid for them surely? Piece work or zero hours contract?

 

[Number9 272]

22 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

The wingers and full backs interchanged a lot last season, but they were all braver being further forward. This season, it seems only 2 of the 4 can attack.

Our strikers are too far back and the fact we had Idah and Pukki in our penalty area defending in the 86th minute when we were 1-0 down was a sorry site to see and it annoyed me! 

Sometimes they go looking for the ball, there are times when you see something like that happening several times and you have to assume that it's a move which has been talked about in training. 

Then I'm scratching my head wondering 

[Dr Greenthumb 794]

18 minutes ago, Number9 said:

Sometimes they go looking for the ball, there are times when you see something like that happening several times and you have to assume that it's a move which has been talked about in training. 

Then I'm scratching my head wondering 

I was watching Arsenal counters and comparing them, their strikers barely seem to be in the defensive third. There seems to be such a paranoia that we will concede, we literally have no outlet when we gain possession back. Hopefully that changes next season.

[Number9 272]

7 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

I was watching Arsenal counters and comparing them, their strikers barely seem to be in the defensive third. There seems to be such a paranoia that we will concede, we literally have no outlet when we gain possession back. Hopefully that changes next season.

It's difficult to make comparison between us and the likes of Arsenal, Man City or Barcelona. Although they like a passing game, our level of player and manager is just on a different planet. 

That's, I think, one of Farkes failings, his tactics would probably work with world class players but he is reluctant to adjust the tactics to compensate for our players. 

 

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

43 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

I was watching Arsenal counters and comparing them, their strikers barely seem to be in the defensive third. There seems to be such a paranoia that we will concede, we literally have no outlet when we gain possession back. Hopefully that changes next season.

Defensively Arsenal aren't always the greatest to be fair, although under Arteta they do look like they may be steadying the ship somewhat. They have put in two excellent defensive shifts recently against Manchester City and Liverpool, but we'll find out more next season when hopefully things are a bit more back to normal!

I just wouldn't be quite so confident using them as a barometer of defensive excellence yet. I do agree with leaving an attacking player up though, especially with the pace of Aubameyang as it's a useful counter weapon.

[hogesar 10,765]

Like Bethnal suggested, and as evidenced pre season, Farke spent quite a bit of time working on 5 at the back but injuries meant we didn't see enough of it...if at all. We saw it a few times the season before though. 

I guess it'll depend on the squad but as it stands I'd rather see our 4-1-4-1 as most of our championship winning talent will likely be midfield and not CB

[Dr Greenthumb 794]

9 hours ago, Number9 said:

It's difficult to make comparison between us and the likes of Arsenal, Man City or Barcelona. Although they like a passing game, our level of player and manager is just on a different planet. 

That's, I think, one of Farkes failings, his tactics would probably work with world class players but he is reluctant to adjust the tactics to compensate for our players. 

 

Just an example, we are in the same league after all! I could have Said any team and got shot down really, as they are all streets ahead. It’s just a positional sense for where I believe our strikers should be. I would never compare Norwich City to Arsenal!

[Dr Greenthumb 794]

8 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Defensively Arsenal aren't always the greatest to be fair, although under Arteta they do look like they may be steadying the ship somewhat. They have put in two excellent defensive shifts recently against Manchester City and Liverpool, but we'll find out more next season when hopefully things are a bit more back to normal!

I just wouldn't be quite so confident using them as a barometer of defensive excellence yet. I do agree with leaving an attacking player up though, especially with the pace of Aubameyang as it's a useful counter weapon.

It’s a good example of how a poor defence copes with the league, attacks being the best form of defence.

 

that rubbish Farke came out with about Drmic’s running stats were mainly due to him constantly running around in our half! Why is our striker doing that? Why, on every corner, is it 10/11 Norwich players in or around our box and we end up conceding? Their should be something/someone to aim to. Put Hernandez on the half way line. Watford have Sarr as their pacy outlet and he is doing a great job since the restart. Made our life a nightmare and even gives Deeney and Welbeck a chance to get up the pitch. 

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

1 hour ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

It’s a good example of how a poor defence copes with the league, attacks being the best form of defence.

 

that rubbish Farke came out with about Drmic’s running stats were mainly due to him constantly running around in our half! Why is our striker doing that? Why, on every corner, is it 10/11 Norwich players in or around our box and we end up conceding? Their should be something/someone to aim to. Put Hernandez on the half way line. Watford have Sarr as their pacy outlet and he is doing a great job since the restart. Made our life a nightmare and even gives Deeney and Welbeck a chance to get up the pitch. 

I agree with sticking Hernandez up top as the speedster on a counter attack and having someone as an outlet, but defending is also done by the attackers in many teams. Especially if we've got defensive issues in midfield (and indeed defence!). Remember when we beat Newcastle and Pukki ended up tackling their striker as last man after Hanley muffed up?

Drmic (or indeed Pukki, or indeed Srbeny when he was here) aim to make life hard for defenders on the ball and harry them into something panicked so we can get back on the ball. For teams like ours who prefer to hog possession, the striker should be running pretty hard trying to force such errors. Hence Drmic's running stats.

Our biggest problem on set pieces is a combination of zonal marking and also that we're a small side. Unless we get a few six-footers in with a leap, we're always going to struggle in that area.

[Dr Greenthumb 794]

46 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I agree with sticking Hernandez up top as the speedster on a counter attack and having someone as an outlet, but defending is also done by the attackers in many teams. Especially if we've got defensive issues in midfield (and indeed defence!). Remember when we beat Newcastle and Pukki ended up tackling their striker as last man after Hanley muffed up?

Drmic (or indeed Pukki, or indeed Srbeny when he was here) aim to make life hard for defenders on the ball and harry them into something panicked so we can get back on the ball. For teams like ours who prefer to hog possession, the striker should be running pretty hard trying to force such errors. Hence Drmic's running stats.

Our biggest problem on set pieces is a combination of zonal marking and also that we're a small side. Unless we get a few six-footers in with a leap, we're always going to struggle in that area.

Pukki was doing that all of last season. I know the teams are better than us, but when our wingers and striker(s) are back in the box defending, it makes you wonder as to how we will ever score, as there is no pace on the break away.

 

zonal marking is an issue, but why are we giving away so many free kicks and corners? If we had the ball up the pitch, this wouldn’t happen. We started brilliantly against Burnley. We had all the possession, first 4 corners and looked like we were confident. I’m holding onto that 35 mins next season and hope that is how we are going to set out to play. If we go the route we did against Chelsea, it’ll be a long season!