Kenny McLean = the new Russel Martin

[sgncfc 1,223]

49 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Tone of this unnecessarily sour.

You've had quite a lot to say about our players ability and their strengths and weaknesses recently, and I'm assuming therefore that you consider yourself suitably qualified to do so, go on then... what was the "high level" you played at? 

Please don't say Anglian Combination. 

Blimey, you do get exercised quite easily. My original post (which you might want to re-read) was about looking at other things as well as your own eyes when trying to "judge" a player, particularly if you didn't play yourself at a high level, but you've taken one part of it out to critique and you started the "sourness" by doing so. I'm not prepared to get involved in one of the personal ding-dongs which this messageboard seems to specialise in. I apologise if I've offended you by disagreeing with the points you've made.

The point is, with regard to Kenny Maclean, some might think he's had a bad season, but his stats disagree - that should be enough to make people at least think twice. If I have criticised players (which I have) it is when I have considered more than my own eyes, because I accept that I have limited knowledge. There is a reason Farke rates him so highly but maybe those who are criticising him can't see it. 

 

[paddycanary 538]

9 hours ago, sonyc said:

I agree with you actually. And though KM is decent at Championship level he would need to be replaced next year (should we be promoted again, the chances though being not great looking at which teams bounce straight back over recent history). If one agrees with this, do you persist in him? My take is that he is part of a bigger squad, assuming his appetite remains and his outlook is one of determination.

 

Apologies @paddycanary as I hadn't read your post before writing mine. Agree with your points and about McLean.

No need for an apology my friend! 👌

[hogesar 9,618]

McLean one of our best players today.

[Number9 272]

Just now, hogesar said:

McLean one of our best players today.

Be more specific about what he did during the game 

[Capt. Pants 4,201]

I think if Rangers come knocking with a few million it will be very hard to resist. Stats might say certain things about him but this isn't 'Football Manager' and for me he tends to go invisible for long periods of the game and is deceptively lightweight.

[hogesar 9,618]

7 minutes ago, Number9 said:

Be more specific about what he did during the game 

He had the highest rating of all our outfield players because:

- he made more tackles and dispossessed the opposition more than anyone else in our midfield

- he won more aerial battles than anyone else in our midfield

- he carried the ball with more successful dribbles than anyone else in our midfield

- he relieved pressure of us by carrying the ball and shielding effectively

- he became our only outlet when down to nine men by relentlessly working hard from our own defensive third and breaking forwards.

Again, you don't like him and therefore see what you want to see.

[Number9 272]

Just now, hogesar said:

He had the highest rating of all our outfield players because:

- he made more tackles and dispossessed the opposition more than anyone else in our midfield

- he won more aerial battles than anyone else in our midfield

- he carried the ball with more successful dribbles than anyone else in our midfield

- he relieved pressure of us by carrying the ball and shielding effectively

- he became our only outlet when down to nine men by relentlessly working hard from our own defensive third and breaking forwards.

Again, you don't like him and therefore see what you want to see.

I don't know him so I'm not sure if I like him or not, I've never met him. 

I do believe that he's not being played in his best position though.

 

Today's game- one of his better games for us, spent too little time winning the ball and too much time laying on the floor. 

Was virtually invisible in defensive situations at set pieces and in attacking positions. 

Where did you get stats from, I'd like to check your information?

Thanks 

[hogesar 9,618]

Just now, Number9 said:

I don't know him so I'm not sure if I like him or not, I've never met him. 

I do believe that he's not being played in his best position though.

 

Today's game- one of his better games for us, spent too little time winning the ball and too much time laying on the floor. 

Was virtually invisible in defensive situations at set pieces and in attacking positions. 

Where did you get stats from, I'd like to check your information?

Thanks 

Whoscored 

[Number9 272]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Whoscored 

My opinion is that you're being very kind to him. 

If he's such a good header of the ball, why no headers defending corners and set pieces, or why no headers attacking the corners & crosses we put into Burnley's area?

I'd be interested to know if the statisticians count a tackle as poking at the ball, then falling over as the opposition carry on toward our goal. He did that a few times today again. 

 

[Adelaide Canary 12]

He has some good aspects to his game... But simply is out of his depth in the Premier League. Those are the facts. Good championship or Scottish Premier player is his level. 

[hogesar 9,618]

9 minutes ago, Number9 said:

My opinion is that you're being very kind to him. 

If he's such a good header of the ball, why no headers defending corners and set pieces, or why no headers attacking the corners & crosses we put into Burnley's area?

I'd be interested to know if the statisticians count a tackle as poking at the ball, then falling over as the opposition carry on toward our goal. He did that a few times today again. 

 

My opinion is youre consistently too harsh on him.

I certainly don't think he's a premier league class midfielder but he's done as good, or as less bad, as anyone else in our midfield this season and the stats back that up.

Then next season he scored 3 goals and got 6 assists in something ridiculous like 15 starts. That is exceptionally good midfield attacking stats from someone who was played as a central midfielder. Most number 10s would be absolutely delighted with those figures in those appearances. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,781]

18 minutes ago, Number9 said:

I do believe that he's not being played in his best position though.

I haven't read either of the first two pages so apologies if it has been discussed already, but I agree wholeheartedly with this.

McLean's best performances this season came in November/December when he was being used as the 'ten'. Similarly, McLean has probably been the best of the poor bunch who have played there- Stiepermann looked out of his depth and the less said about Duda the better. 

In a strong Championship team that is on the front foot most of the time, McLean can get away with playing deeper and getting forward from there, but I think in the Premier League when we need to be more pragmatic and solid, he's better with two more defensive shields behind him. We get exposed too much when he plays in the holding role and when he plays further forward he seems to do the dirty work that brings out the best in the other attacking players.

Along with Tettey, I'd say he's arguably the only central midfielder I'd be disappointed to lose this summer.

[Indy 3,283]

He certainly solid enough for the championship, sadly if we go up would need to be replaced in the premiership. I don’t think he warrants the criticism as he’s one player who puts in a shift, yes can go missing at times but not bad player as some make out.

[Felixfan 53]

McLean out of his depth in the PL. Would not want to build a Championship sound him. No comparison with Russ.

[Dr Greenthumb 746]

20 hours ago, sgncfc said:

I suspect that a lot of contributors to this messageboard never played football beyond school level, so it's a bit rich that they feel qualified to judge an individual players ability. You can look at everyones stats these days to see what their comparative contribution is, to supplement what you think you are seeing on the pitch and that should give you a reasonable idea about who is doing well and who isn't.

If you do that, you'll see that Maclean has done OK compared to those he is competing against for his place in the team. He is one of the few players who has improved his overall game this season - the only other ones being Krul and Hanley.

What level have you played at? 

[Indy_Bones 441]

I love the stats part of football, but even a stat fanatic like myself has to admit that they can often be interpreted in many different ways, and without the balance of actually seeing how the games played out, can provide often misleading information.

As an example, I remember many years back seeing the data that showed that David Batty had the best pass completion percentage in the Premier League at one point, sounds fantastic on paper, but then you watched the games and saw that the overwhelming majority of those passes were short balls to the side or backwards with basically no cutting edge whatsoever. That's absolutely fine as long as you understand the combination of the two, win the ball, pass it off to a more creative teammate, job done. What's not fine would be drawing the assumption that Batty was the Leeds version of Pirlo and with his over 90% success rate, was pinging balls all over the park with flair and creativity. The stat was accurate, but the intepretation and meaning of it needed to see the play to understand what it actually represented.

If we take the data from WhoScored, some interesting things come to light:

1) McLean was ranked 14th in terms of tackles per game, which puts him behind Trybull, Duda, Buendia, Leitner, Amadou, Vrancic, Cantwell and Rupp from our other midfielders, but slightly ahead of Tettey in 17th place

2) 6th in interceptions, behind both Tettey and Amadou (although most of Amadou's games were at CB to be fair).

3) 11th in clearances

4) 8th in key passes and shots per game

5) 7th in succesful dribbles and 2nd in number of times fouled

6) 4th in number of passes per game with a 79.5% success rate (which puts him 14th in terms of pass success rate)

I could go on, but the data is easily accessible for all to see, but combined with watching the games leads me to my personal conclusion which is this:

McLean is a solid and reliable player but one who lacks the defensive stability of a Tettey or a Trybull, who doesn't have the passing quality of a Leitner or Duda, doesn't have the creativity of a Vrancic or Buendia, but is strong aerially and who frequently works hard and covers quite a bit of ground. Players like McLean will always find a place in many decent sides as there's little he does particularly poorly, but the higher up the game you go, the more you need to excel in certain attributes rather than being decent at most.

We've lacked the passing range of Leitner or Vrancic which has often lead to our strikers being given limited supply, especially as we've not had Stiepermann behind Pukki to provide strength and a stronger threat (and being fair, Stieps looked awful at the start of the season), and because we've had to rely so heavily on Tettey for the defensive side (due to injuries to CB's and Amadou's failure to perform alongside this), McLean had to play somewhat more defensively than he'd ideally like which isn't really his game either.

I don't think he deserves huge plaudits for his performances, but neither does he deserve berating for them either, however, unless he gets the chance to play with a bit more freedom in the midfield and demonstrate a greater range of vision and passing in the process, then there are other players I'd rather have in the team despite some of their inherent issues as well (e.g Vrancic).

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

21 hours ago, norfolkngood said:

But we need to aim higher this season 

No point having a Team with Kenny Mcleans next time we go up as they are not good enough for the EPL 

How much would it cost to have a team full of premier league ready players ? Not going to happen

[valiant 5]

On 18/07/2020 at 08:00, Dean Coneys boots said:

Strikes me that kenny has become the new Russ. Loved by the management and owners, bigged up as a character, and - the annoying bit-  never dropped even when performances are poor and he adds little to the team. 

So he’s going to play and at times captain the team at a consistent level over a pretty successful 9 year period whilst also helping maintain the ethos and culture of the team off the pitch. Sounds good. 

[hogesar 9,618]

1 minute ago, FenwayFrank said:

How much would it cost to have a team full of premier league ready players ? Not going to happen

Well, exactly. Also, when you're in the championship you're not going to attract many Premier league players, you need to be in the Premier for that.

We might get a couple with the potential to, but we had that this season.

[hogesar 9,618]

1 minute ago, valiant said:

So he’s going to play and at times captain the team at a consistent level over a pretty successful 9 year period whilst also helping maintain the ethos and culture of the team off the pitch. Sounds good. 

Good post

[norfolkngood 1,086]

11 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

How much would it cost to have a team full of premier league ready players ? Not going to happen

Well I hope with the 4 young players we have that that can make serious money if sold 

I hope we do not sign And waste the money on championship players 

Edited July 19, 2020 by norfolkngood

[smooth 114]

On 18/07/2020 at 09:00, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think McLean is very average myself but haven't you answered your own question? The point is that he is ok at everything, Vrancic no pace, Leitner can't tackle or score. Etc. It's not about what those players are best at, it's about their significant weaknesses. 

Also, if you can't see what Gary Holt offered that side then no helping you really. That's precisely the type of physicality and engine we could really do with right now! Mulryne didn't invest enough in his fitness to start every week, drank more than he trained. 

But personally I think Farke is bigging up McLean because he wants to encourage West Ham to firm up their alleged interest. Or encourage other suitors.  

Isn't a good idea to slag off players that you want somebody else to buy from you is it. Been to a car showroom lately? They'd have a good go at convincing you that a Renault is as reliable as a Toyota if it helped them get a sale. 

I totally agree that Farke is acknowledging that as a whole Mclean has been our best player in a team which has been on the back foot for most of this season, he has been that jack of all trades which unfortunately has not been challenged by players who have better attributes but have not raised other areas of their game. So I totally agree with your points.

I said my view on Gary Holt was not going to be popular but again it is my personal preference. I just hoped the workload would be there alongside the creativity with Mulryne and Francis. But again we had a good 3 players at that time.

I am quite intrigued if there is interest in Mclean and agree any manager is going to quash speculation or possibly talk about them with high praise. Very happy to see that continue if teams are interested in Kenny.

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

Russel Martin came to us when we were in league 1 and cost pea nuts. He was loyal and tried his best and was always a good representative of the club. After about 4 years his performances started to dip a bit but he gave this club excellent service and i am sure he would be welcomed back as a coach at some future point in our history. Kenny did not cost us a fortune either, he played well last season and is another one who gives his best. This season i think he had been playing out of position and IMO he is best playing just behind the forward/s not a DIY defensive midfielder. Not that many of our squad has come out of this campaign with a great deal of credit so it is totally unfair to pick on him. I am very optimistic that he will make a valuable contribution next season and there is really no point taking it any further than that. He has a good engine, probably championship is his level but he is a very good championship player and it is a Division that we are now in, for how long anyones guess. If we got promoted again he may not get that much game time, but given our propensity to get relegated pretty quickly, worth keeping in the books. If we have a more prolonged  stay in the championship then i see him being here for a number of seasons to come,it is a squad game and he can still offer a great deal at that level