Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Yellow Fever

The Brexit Thread (reprise)

Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, Bill said:

stilly lying - whatever bame you post under

both RTB and BB in this case

unfortunately, the evidence of what you wrote is there for all to see

both in your lies and how you regularly get confused who posted what

you or your altered ego RTB

 

So bereft of ideas of how to start of fight that you wheel out the usual nonsense. Frankly its insulting that you put no effort in.

Can you not at least do me the courtesy of making an inexplicable reference to Monty Python at the end of the post?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

I think the problem is that Boris is able to appeal to the moderates in a way that others cannot.  It is not because he has any traits they actually like or respect they simply prefer him to what they see as the arrogant alternative .

If starmer wants to win he must appeal to hearts and well as minds.

He must distance himself from the toxicity that is now inherent in the likes of Miller and Maughan and strike a conciliatory note with the fair minded and mildly patriotic. 

Let's be honest, those two are only toxic to people that have a dislike of democratic norms and people that should never be listened to. Also, I don't think either of them have much to do with the Labour Party. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Herman said:

Let's be honest, those two are only toxic to people that have a dislike of democratic norms and people that should never be listened to. Also, I don't think either of them have much to do with the Labour Party. 

I'm not sure that is the honest answer though.  Sure they are utterly toxic to ardent brexiteers but the poison goes deeper.

Its not just these two  they are just high profile manifestations of it.  The average man in the street does not see them as noble defemders of democracy, what they see is them as part of an elite doing them and their nation down.  

Its not impossible for starmer to fix but he needs to be speaking to those who have felt marginalised. Hearts, not minds is what he needs to be thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone noticed that Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, a man who has made a career out of being a complete **** and complaining about refugees, who campaigned extensively for Brexit, is now fleeing to Spain, using freedom of movement "because he fears for the safety of his family".... Let that sink in You Brexit ****wits.

Tommy Robinson, is using freedom of movement, to move to Spain. A right that you will no longer have after this year because you believed **** like him. You believed him that refugees were a problem. Now he's a ****ing refugee. You really are ****ing mugs if you still can't see the wood for the trees.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Do have a read of the unherd link provided by Ricardo because it answers your points. You seem to conflate a sense of pride in the nation with an idea that we hunger for days of empire, whereas most Brexiteers see it as a realignment with the 21st century. 

Here is a quote from the article. 

And they favour continuity over disruption and discontinuity. This is why they cherish Britain’s history, heritage and collective memory and are more sensitive to attempts to deconstruct them. And while they acknowledge that this history is complex, they believe that, on the whole, it was positive and that Britain has been a force for good in the world. In short, they believe in their country. They are proud of it. And they are proud of their fellow citizens.

The article makes a good point that the Conservatives quickly realigned the party along Brexit lines which represents the majority viewpoint in the country. Hence their success in the GE and continued high polling. Labour are way behind in the game. I keep prodding in the New Labour Leader thread to see if there is any evidence of a realignment within that party but posters seem to have their head stuck in the sand. Starmer is realigning but it looks like he is taking the party back to Blair 2.0. It is Labour who is stuck in the past, unable to pick up on a viable narrative, tiptoeing through a woke agenda while the Tories romp ahead

Funnily enough I read the article and  in general you could almost invert the whole thesis.

Johnson offers without any factual evidence like all good salesman riches tomorrow -  manana.

Others - think Britain's best days, indeed interests lie ahead leading a large economic block with the global influence that provides - as opposed to being a small somewhat isolated country on the edge of NW Europe that was once famous a 100 years ago. Putin (and Trump) came to the same conclusion - a 'Brexit' meant a weakened., isolated and easily bullied or ignored UK. Job done. ✔️

What is sure now is that the Brexiters (and it's not a left or right thing - that's your and others blinkers) have a date with destiny. I suspect they'll try to blame Covid for the consequences as they'll will always find  something or somebody else to blame. It's one of their defining traits.

Edited by Yellow Fever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Anyone noticed that Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, a man who has made a career out of being a complete **** and complaining about refugees, who campaigned extensively for Brexit, is now fleeing to Spain, using freedom of movement "because he fears for the safety of his family".... Let that sink in You Brexit ****wits.

Tommy Robinson, is using freedom of movement, to move to Spain. A right that you will no longer have after this year because you believed **** like him. You believed him that refugees were a problem. Now he's a ****ing refugee. You really are ****ing mugs if you still can't see the wood for the trees.

As a convicted criminal, will Spain, or wherever he is, deport him? 🙂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'm not sure that is the honest answer though.  Sure they are utterly toxic to ardent brexiteers but the poison goes deeper.

Its not just these two  they are just high profile manifestations of it.  The average man in the street does not see them as noble defemders of democracy, what they see is them as part of an elite doing them and their nation down.  

Its not impossible for starmer to fix but he needs to be speaking to those who have felt marginalised. Hearts, not minds is what he needs to be thinking.

I'm not sure how you twisted my hunger induced rant about Cummings into something about Gina Miller but here we are.

A) I'll repeat,these two have nothing to do with Starmer or the Labour Party.

B) When you say the average man in the street you mean hardcore brexiters. And no they are not well liked amongst that group. But her main mission was to keep brexit democratic and parliament to have a say. His was to highlight massive electoral fraud. Now if you don't like them for doing this then you are no friend of democracy.

C) If you think that Eton and Oxbridge educated millionaires and billionaires are not the elite then you shouldn't be allowed out of your home, let alone vote.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Herman said:

I'm not sure how you twisted my hunger induced rant about Cummings into something about Gina Miller but here we are.

A) I'll repeat,these two have nothing to do with Starmer or the Labour Party.

B) When you say the average man in the street you mean hardcore brexiters. And no they are not well liked amongst that group. But her main mission was to keep brexit democratic and parliament to have a say. His was to highlight massive electoral fraud. Now if you don't like them for doing this then you are no friend of democracy.

C) If you think that Eton and Oxbridge educated millionaires and billionaires are not the elite then you shouldn't be allowed out of your home, let alone vote.

A) I'm not suggesting that miller or maugham have any connection with the Labour Party but that is not the point.  The point is that Boris is able to portray himself as a man of the people standing up for british values.  He puts himself up as opposition to ' the other ' It matters not if there is any connection, real or imagined, between members of 'the other'.

B)  no, I do not mean hardcore brexiteers.  Boris won the election  comfortably.  It may suit you to put your hands over your ears and eyes and deny what you know, but the truth is that not everyone who voted for boris was or is a hardcore brexiteer and a natural tory. Many were traditional working class voters felt cut off from other parties who they saw as talking only to themselves

C) and yet the tory party was bold enough to talk about elites. We are barely evolved apes and are quite prepared to tolerate elites as much as our cousins tolerate an alpha, silverback monkey tyrant.   The point is we tolerate 'our elite', we don't tolerate those that are not with us.. but we could easily turn on the Eton elite, their position is tenuous at best.

 

But you know what? that is just my thoughts. You have yours.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Herman said:

I'm not sure how you twisted my hunger induced rant about Cummings into something about Gina Miller but here we are.

and you still haven't twigged..... dear god

come back Swindo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, ricardo said:

Well, it was interesting the first time Prof Goodwin wrote it but he has been recycling the same stale ideas for six months now and the world has changed. It is remarkable that Johnson's support has held up despite his obvious failings only if you ignore three positives he has. Firstly, he is still in a honeymoon period, sitting on the back of of a significant election victory and the idea of having "gotten Brexit done". Secondly it is a recognised trend that electorates cling to governments in crisises like the pandemic, clinging to nurse for fear of worse. Lastly the Labour Party was leaderless (although you could say that has been the case since 2019) as are the Liberal Democrats.

The next elections are 8 months out and opinion polls are remarkably erratic when the electorate arn't forcussed on actually voting. That said any Boris bounce has evaporated. This is where Goodwin's argument could possibly begin to unwind. Starmer is methodically dealing with the hygienne factors within the Labour Party. There will be no culture war from him, he studiously avoids Brexit and just steadily emphasises Johnson's failings. In addition if Layla Moran wins the LibDem leadership contest it is clear that they will concentrate criticism on the Tories with the possibility of the return of tactical voting.

The headwinds for the government will also put pressure on Goodwin's coalition of the Brexiteers and One Nation Tories. Johnson has banked the votes for getting Brexit done, so the end of the transition period can only be electorally negative. Add to that rising unemployment, the ongoing virus and the fact that Johnson will have been unable to demonstrate any tangible "levelling up" and this argument may prove to be a mirage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I think the problem is that Boris is able to appeal to the moderates in a way that others cannot.  It is not because he has any traits they actually like or respect they simply prefer him to what they see as the arrogant alternative .

I would suggest the complete opposite is the case - Johnson's approval ratings are now rattling around the low 30s percentage wise which is pretty close to the 'hard core Brexit at any cost' vote.

Of course there is no way to prove that the two demographics are one and the same but since hard Brexit was both Johnson's signature policy and the only thing he has successfully delivered as PM ( I'm guessing the unmitigated health and economic disasters he's presided over aren't contributing to his popularity amongst moderate voters) I think its a fair and reasonable assumption that Johnson's appeal is not to moderates at all.

Starmer, on the other hand, is not just moderate in policy terms but he is significantly outscoring Johnson in the sort of values that 'moderates' are likely to value; trustworthiness, decisive leadership, puts the countries interests first, likeable, etc, etc and with the biggest lead of all on...competence.

Edited by Creative Midfielder
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

....the Tories romp ahead

image.thumb.png.8e5908001996c74d67de6ee2662c58e0.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 

Starmer, on the other hand, is not just moderate in policy terms but he is significantly outscoring Johnson in the sort of values that 'moderates' are likely to value; trustworthiness, decisive leadership, puts the countries interests first, likeable, etc, etc and with the biggest lead of all on...competence.

I think Starmer instinctively understands what needs to be done to win an election. One of the best illustrations is in how he tried to navigate the BLM protests in such a way that could highlight the fundamental importance of opportunities for all without alienating any section of the population. 

Edited by Barbe bleu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I would suggest the complete opposite is the case - Johnson's approval ratings are now rattling around the low 30s percentage wise which is pretty close to the 'hard core Brexit at any cost' vote.

I cant comment on approval ratings as I have not seen them.  To describe 1/3 of the electorate as hard core brexiteers though is taking things far too far.

More pertinently if the opposition has completely alienated the electorate the appoval ratings done need to be high. A case of "he may be a ****he*d, but he is our d*c**e**" will do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Herman said:

Really?? Cummings and crew are ripping the backside out of anything that was once classed as quintessentially British. Anything is up for burning in their bout of rabid arson. 

Do any of you brexiters pay the slightest bit of attention to what is going on? It's sad and frankly embarrassing that some of you are still cheering the trashing of your own country. 

It's a pity you don't put some thought into providing a list of things that Cummings has ripped up and we could consider them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 22/07/2020 at 12:25, Swindo said:

Hi guys I've realised I made a HUGH error voting for Brexit. I will be posting on this thread from now on !

First day I've visited this thread, and I find someone impersonating me !  I'm like the majority of England, I did vote to leave it was never an error and no one will change it, Bloody Remainers ! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

I think the country rejected Mr. Corbyn for reasons other than free broadband 

Without doubt there were many factors that led to the rejection of corbyn. What's interesting now is will Labour take on board the lessons they need to learn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Bill said:

stilly lying - whatever bame you post under

both RTB and BB in this case

unfortunately, the evidence of what you wrote is there for all to see

both in your lies and how you regularly get confused who posted what

you or your altered ego RTB

I'm not sure why you think that posters who disagree with you must be one and the same person. But I do know you are an obstruction to having a reasonable conversation with other posters as you hijack so many threads to make them about yourself. It is as if you cannot accept there might be a viewpoint different to yours. it's a shame you are still allowed to troll here because I feel a lot more people would be joining in discussions if you were not around. Perhaps for the sake of us all, you might consider stepping away from this message board?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

It's a pity you don't put some thought into providing a list of things that Cummings has ripped up and we could consider them.

The truth. We can start with the Barnard Castle horse**** if you want. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

First day I've visited this thread, and I find someone impersonating me !  I'm like the majority of England, I did vote to leave it was never an error and no one will change it, Bloody Remainers ! 

You were arguing with your alter ego on the other thread 

Here

Tell us more about hoovers and light bulbs 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I cant comment on approval ratings as I have not seen them.  To describe 1/3 of the electorate as hard core brexiteers though is taking things far too far.

 

I can't imagine why you think that - I'm pretty sure that in the Euro elections the Brexit Company obtained over 1/3 of the votes and that doesn't include the handful that voted for hard Brexit Tory candidates.

In the December General Election 42% voted for the hardest Brexit possible so that looks to me as though 1/3 of the electorate as hard core brexiteers is actually a conservative estimate - capital 'C' or little 'c'? I'm not sure it matters.

PS. Dont worry about the approval ratings, I'm sure you'll take my word that they exist and are painting the picture I described 😀Anyway I think we've more or less agreed already that although opinion polls do provide some indication of current sentiment, we shouldn't place too much weight on them, which is why I refer you to the real votes above.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I can't imagine why you think that - I'm pretty sure that in the Euro elections the Brexit Company obtained over 1/3 of the votes and that doesn't include the handful that voted for hard Brexit Tory candidates.

In the December General Election 42% voted for the hardest Brexit possible so that looks to me as though 1/3 of the electorate as hard core brexiteers is actually a conservative estimate - capital 'C' or little 'c'? I'm not sure it matters.

PS. Dont worry about the approval ratings, I'm sure you'll take my word that they exist and are painting the picture I described 😀Anyway I think we've more or less agreed already that although opinion polls do provide some indication of current sentiment, we shouldn't place too much weight on them, which is why I refer you to the real votes above.

 

Depends on your definition of 'hardcore' I guess.   My view is that there were more votes available than you realise but boris did the best at hiibering them up.

In terms of hard and soft brexits I think these are primarily macro economic ways of looking at things in a world where most voters don't really consider macro economics...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

In terms of hard and soft brexits I think these are primarily macro economic ways of looking at things in a world where most voters don't really consider macro economics...

Come 2021 they will do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

I'm not sure why you think that posters who disagree with you must be one and the same person. But I do know you are an obstruction to having a reasonable conversation with other posters as you hijack so many threads to make them about yourself. It is as if you cannot accept there might be a viewpoint different to yours. it's a shame you are still allowed to troll here because I feel a lot more people would be joining in discussions if you were not around. Perhaps for the sake of us all, you might consider stepping away from this message board?

you are RTB and Hand Crank, plus Ben10 and umpteen other names ...

 etc

hadenuff'

someone who posts lies, and twists arguments as a matter of course (as above) for your

'bit of sport' as you have previously said

now as to 'reasonable conversation' why not back your claims about proroguing parliament

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Herman said:

The truth. We can start with the Barnard Castle horse**** if you want. 

How is that 'stripping away at British quintessentialism'?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We were an honest race were we not? We accepted that politicians shouldn't be trusted fully but they also shouldn't take the ****. He did that and got away with it completely.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bill said:

you are RTB and Hand Crank, plus Ben10 and umpteen other names ...

 etc

hadenuff'

someone who posts lies, and twists arguments as a matter of course (as above) for your

'bit of sport' as you have previously said

now as to 'reasonable conversation' why not back your claims about proroguing parliament

Bizarre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, kick it off said:

Anyone noticed that Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, a man who has made a career out of being a complete **** and complaining about refugees, who campaigned extensively for Brexit, is now fleeing to Spain, using freedom of movement "because he fears for the safety of his family".... Let that sink in You Brexit ****wits.

Tommy Robinson, is using freedom of movement, to move to Spain. A right that you will no longer have after this year because you believed **** like him. You believed him that refugees were a problem. Now he's a ****ing refugee. You really are ****ing mugs if you still can't see the wood for the trees.

His wife's house was the target of an arson attack by BLM protesters. He obviously feels the police are not able to protect his family. In other news Shemima Begum, the Isis terrorist is being allowed back into the country by the court of appeal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Bill said:

you are RTB and Hand Crank, plus Ben10 and umpteen other names ...

 etc

hadenuff'

someone who posts lies, and twists arguments as a matter of course (as above) for your

'bit of sport' as you have previously said

now as to 'reasonable conversation' why not back your claims about proroguing parliament

You said you had blocked me. Why, therefore, are you now acting like a stalker following me from thread to thread?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...