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Terminally Yellow

Martin Samuel and Curtis Woodhouse

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It's interesting to read the views expressed by this pair, one in his Daily Mail column and the other on twitter. Both massively criticise Daniel Farke and the club for rigidly sticking to failing practices and tactical inflexibility. 

On the one hand, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what they're saying. It's hard not to when you're producing the performances we are at the moment.

But on the other - who are they to say how any club should approach a season? If the club had been able to avoid relegation, I've no doubt neither would be airing these views. It feels a bit like kicking the club when they're down. Literally and metaphorically.

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We should use these idiots as motivation to stick together and come back stronger. Neil got panned for losing faith in his approach and still getting relegated, now people howl that Farke should've done the same. We are building something based on a culture of "real" football and we should be incredibly proud of that. Already talented kids such as Idah and Martin are getting minutes at the top level playing the right way. It's exciting.

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If you take this season in isolation, then their comments may have something about them (I have only seen Samuel's btw, but you allude to them being similar) The whole thing needs to be taken into context, i.e. the previous 3 to 4 seasons when we were up the creek with no means of paddling, but that won't sell papers , will it or improve one's profile

Edited by Crabbycanary3
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If farke had brought a load of new players in, he could maybe be blamed for the failings. As it is his hands have been tied. With the group of players he has, zonal or man marking wouldn’t make much difference. The facts are we have a physically small and weak side. Something that is being addressed. 
The main gripe for me, which can be sorted with these players, is not pushing both full backs on at the same time. If Lewis goes forward arrons  stays back and vice versa. All to often our attack breaks down and one ball forward and our cbs are exposed. 

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There is something to it when the exact same problems were visible in game 1 v Liverpool (over insistence on playing out from the back, lack of defensive structure, inability to deal with set pieces) were still there the game that got us relegated.

Woodhouse is pretty blunt but I think he's right that saying we 'play the right way' is meaningless when the right way gets you beaten week in week out.

A bit of pragmatism was needed.

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Martin Samuel is not stupid, and has a muscular style, and the point of being a columnist is to be outrageous, so he is often a good read.

The outrageously nonsensical argument he makes in that piece is that because we didn't spend any money, or certainly not more than we could afford, we don't deserve to get any parachute payments, while Aston Villa, who spent £140m of money that will may prove catastrophic if they go down, somehow do deserve PPs.

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6 minutes ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

If you take this season in isolation, then their comments may have something about them (I have only seen Samuel's btw, but you allude to them being similar) The whole thing needs to be taken into context, i.e. the previous 3 to 4 seasons when we were up the creek with no means of paddling, but that won't sell papers , will it or improve one's profile

Absolutely agree with this - if you look purely in terms of survival in the Premier League this season then their comments may have some merit. That said, do they really think this idea hadn't occurred to Webber and Farke, given that these two have are actually having to walk the walk rather than just talk the talk in the newspapers?

Considering we're trying to establish a playing style over the long term, and considering we were likely to be relegated anyway, would it really have been the best thing to do to try and alter the style of play we are aiming for (and implemented so successfully last season) just to try and cling onto Premiership survival?

I expect next season to give a much greater indication of whether our long-term strategy is going to be successful.

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7 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Martin Samuel is not stupid, and has a muscular style, and the point of being a columnist is to be outrageous, so he is often a good read.

The outrageously nonsensical argument he makes in that piece is that because we didn't spend any money, or certainly not more than we could afford, we don't deserve to get any parachute payments, while Aston Villa, who spent £140m of money that will may prove catastrophic if they go down, somehow do deserve PPs.

I had seen people tweeting it and not read it- glad I didn't based on that.

Woodhouse was talking specifically about our tacitcal style- his tweet said...

"I hate watching Norwich, the arrogance infuriates me. “Playing the right way” getting beat every week. Modern day football gone mad! No defensive foundation, no spine, no structure. Imo the manager hasn’t given the club a chance of staying up, not once has he been pragmatic"

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29 minutes ago, king canary said:

I had seen people tweeting it and not read it- glad I didn't based on that.

Woodhouse was talking specifically about our tacitcal style- his tweet said...

"I hate watching Norwich, the arrogance infuriates me. “Playing the right way” getting beat every week. Modern day football gone mad! No defensive foundation, no spine, no structure. Imo the manager hasn’t given the club a chance of staying up, not once has he been pragmatic"

Getting beat week in week out is not "playing the right way".... The two articles raise some valid points I agree with and others I do not. 

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The squad only has the numbers and the profile to play in a few ways - physical, direct and "pragmatic" isn't one of them.

Seen some people call for similar in the remaining games asking for us to "park the bus". With what? 4 fit defenders and Tettey?

Martin Samuel has done his shock jock routine for clicks and views, but his article is so devoid of detailed context as to be complete nonsense. 

Edited by kirku
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1 hour ago, Terminally Yellow said:

It's interesting to read the views expressed by this pair, one in his Daily Mail column and the other on twitter. Both massively criticise Daniel Farke and the club for rigidly sticking to failing practices and tactical inflexibility. 

On the one hand, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what they're saying. It's hard not to when you're producing the performances we are at the moment.

But on the other - who are they to say how any club should approach a season? If the club had been able to avoid relegation, I've no doubt neither would be airing these views. It feels a bit like kicking the club when they're down. Literally and metaphorically.

They are correct.

We beat Man City by changing the system, sticking everybody behind the ball and counter attacking.

We've not otherwise been the slightest bit diversified tactically. 

Our young players surely limited in their development when asked to play the exact same way in the exact same system week in week out. Has Ben Godrey ever man marked anybody? 

We throw around numbers like £50m, but a defender who has only ever played in zonal systems going to have a limited number of potential suitors and for a fee like that teams want a player who can go straight into their side. Zero experience man marking, yet people suggest he's the next Rio Ferdinand.

We have had no Plan B, we've made like for like substitutions all season, our half-time team talks and subs have hardly ever changed a game in our favour.

Whether that blame can lie firmly a the feet of Farke or whether it should be shared with Webber is the question, and we don't really know, I thought it was the case that we play the way we do right now because Farke and Webber both equally buy into this footballing philosophy and Webber has obviously bought players that we think can fit into this one-dimensional and completely inflexible system.

Like Webber said, blame him.

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For me they key is, could Norwich play another way?

Would things have been better if they hit longer, direct passes to Pukki or is bobbins in the air? 

The squad was built to play a certain style and would not be adept at playing anything radically different. There are small changes that could have been made here and there and I do actually think we saw changes to the game plan through the season. Ultimately the squad is a bit one dimensional so was always going to struggle for a ‘Plan B’. 

While these two have seen it fit to criticise Norwich for not changing their style, others have praised them for it. Personally I’m glad the club didn’t try to make some patchwork plan and get caught between two stalls stylistically - but also agree that Farke is definitely not a pragmatist and has a strong belief in his method. As I’ve said elsewhere, that determination and self assured confidence is both a strength and a weakness. 

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Arsenal invincibles were the most long ball team I have ever seen... Great to watch.

Possession without Pace or strength is not great to watch

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A journo who loves clickbait (as they all do) and a footballer who was so bad he became a boxer before trying again to be a footballer.

It's really easy to sit and criticise without knowing what has actually had to take place.

Webber has got many things wrong but the one thing he got right was his comments before the season started as to why we couldn't and wouldn't spend stupid money.

What he and Farke got wrong was picking up the wrong players who didn't work and who as others have pointed out would have allowed us to change our style.

I said this last summer and the same is relevant this summer, we need a centre forward who can win a header to give us the option of going long when keep ball fails.

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5 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

For me they key is, could Norwich play another way?

Would things have been better if they hit longer, direct passes to Pukki or is bobbins in the air? 

The squad was built to play a certain style and would not be adept at playing anything radically different. There are small changes that could have been made here and there and I do actually think we saw changes to the game plan through the season. Ultimately the squad is a bit one dimensional so was always going to struggle for a ‘Plan B’. 

While these two have seen it fit to criticise Norwich for not changing their style, others have praised them for it. Personally I’m glad the club didn’t try to make some patchwork plan and get caught between two stalls stylistically - but also agree that Farke is definitely not a pragmatist and has a strong belief in his method. As I’ve said elsewhere, that determination and self assured confidence is both a strength and a weakness. 

I don't think it would be massively unfair to call Farke stubborn, although I'm sure the same could be levelled at Webber.

Like you say, I don't think we had a better way of playing. I do think, obviously with hindsight, an additional CB would have allowed us to play 5 at the back more often as per some of the stuff Farke done pre-season but we'd still play 'the same way'.

I also think that Webber probably supported Farke in that I believe sticking to the same style and philosophy would have been backed by Webber - if they're trying to apply it across the club at all levels it doesn't really work if they then turned around and said "Yeah but we're going all Fat Sam about it to stay up, but trust me we do really believe in this".

Obviously a bit of hyperbole because it's an extreme but i'm not sure we had the personnel, as you rightly say, to play any other way.

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Can you imagine the stick Farke would have got if he’d changed the way we play to something far less pleasing on the eye and we’d gone down anyway? 

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

Martin Samuel is not stupid, and has a muscular style, and the point of being a columnist is to be outrageous, so he is often a good read.

The outrageously nonsensical argument he makes in that piece is that because we didn't spend any money, or certainly not more than we could afford, we don't deserve to get any parachute payments, while Aston Villa, who spent £140m of money that will may prove catastrophic if they go down, somehow do deserve PPs.

Absolutely this. Assuming this is the same article I read in the Mail following a link on Facebook, it was full of tendentious rubbish. His argument seemed to consist of adding up a few headline transfer fees with sod all context. I felt a bit dirty having been suckered into reading such blatant clickbait, so please don't pay this idiot's wages by doing the same thing.

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1 hour ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Can you imagine the stick Farke would have got if he’d changed the way we play to something far less pleasing on the eye and we’d gone down anyway? 

Exactly. Hughton was getting stick even as he guided us to our highest placed finish in the pyramid since 1993 due to the style of play. 

Plus, as has been mentioned, we'd have been mauled if we tried to play like Stoke with our players. 

And please, @TeemuVanBasten, no rewriting of history, we didn't "park the bus" in our win against Man City. 

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1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

Exactly. Hughton was getting stick even as he guided us to our highest placed finish in the pyramid since 1993 due to the style of play. 

Plus, as has been mentioned, we'd have been mauled if we tried to play like Stoke with our players. 

And please, @TeemuVanBasten, no rewriting of history, we didn't "park the bus" in our win against Man City. 

If only there was some way to not be as open as a Farke team or as defensive as a Hughton team. But those are the only two types of football.

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Just now, king canary said:

If only there was some way to not be as open as a Farke team or as defensive as a Hughton team. But those are the only two types of football.

It's pretty difficult not to be open as a Farke team when most of your defence is injured and you're relying on a 34 year old defensive midfielder who was barely premier quality even in his prime.

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3 minutes ago, king canary said:

If only there was some way to not be as open as a Farke team or as defensive as a Hughton team. But those are the only two types of football.

Well, the middle ground just ends up being "no identity" as soon as results go the wrong way

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I never get this plan b or play a different way! Surely each manager has a preference in the way he wants to play, he then buys players to suit that system, then it’s coached into the squad!

This planning b or to say he’s rigid isn’t fair as the team is coached week in week out! I don’t think our style and system is wrong, apart from zonal marking, I hate it.....we have two CB they should attack the all at every set play.

 

Edited by Indy

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4 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Getting beat week in week out is not "playing the right way".... The two articles raise some valid points I agree with and others I do not. 

Strange though that before the restart we didn't get any of this criticism, having just beaten Leicester and given Sheff Utd a very close run. Everyone said that without crowds it isn't a fair way to judge - including Martin Samuel. Suddenly now it's OK to judge because we've been useless without crowds. Most journalists or twitterati just write ill informed rubbish; these two are no different - they demonstrate that they know nothing about why we did what we did.

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Normally a fan of Martins but I don't think his article about us is a good one; seems ill-informed. Inferring that if you don't spend big you shouldn't get any parachute payments? So you have to put your club in financial danger to get them? Strange. Comparing the money Sheffield Utd or Villa have spent to us isn't fair as we simply can't afford anywhere near 60 million at the mo.

OTBC

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1 hour ago, king canary said:

If only there was some way to not be as open as a Farke team or as defensive as a Hughton team. But those are the only two types of football.

Tell me about it. Or tell Farke actually, how he can make his players tougher, stronger and taller so that they can play both types of football. 

We invested and recruited players based on a philosophy, to tell said players to play a different way for certain games would have seen us really give Derby's record a good go. 

I think some people think Football Manager is a reflection of real life. Why didn't Farke just press pause and change the mentality from Attacking to Ultra Defensive, the idiot? It got me a 0-0 at the Nou Camp so could easily have bagged us more points against Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd. 

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27 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Tell me about it. Or tell Farke actually, how he can make his players tougher, stronger and taller so that they can play both types of football. 

We invested and recruited players based on a philosophy, to tell said players to play a different way for certain games would have seen us really give Derby's record a good go. 

I think some people think Football Manager is a reflection of real life. Why didn't Farke just press pause and change the mentality from Attacking to Ultra Defensive, the idiot? It got me a 0-0 at the Nou Camp so could easily have bagged us more points against Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd. 

I didn't suggest the play both types- I suggested there is a myriad of ways you can play in between those two types.

I'm talking minor tweaks really- making sure the fullbacks know that if one goes forward the other stays back, making sure McLean doesn't bomb forward the second we win the ball leaving us exposed in the middle for instance.

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

I didn't suggest the play both types- I suggested there is a myriad of ways you can play in between those two types.

I'm talking minor tweaks really- making sure the fullbacks know that if one goes forward the other stays back, making sure McLean doesn't bomb forward the second we win the ball leaving us exposed in the middle for instance

So he needed to magically make two young footballers playing at this level for the first time read the game like more experienced defenders and turn McLean into something other than a £500k signing from Aberdeen. 

It was so simple. 

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9 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

So he needed to magically make two young footballers playing at this level for the first time read the game like more experienced defenders and turn McLean into something other than a £500k signing from Aberdeen. 

It was so simple. 

So in your mind three of our key players are incapable of any positions discipline?

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5 minutes ago, king canary said:

So in your mind three of our key players are incapable of any positions discipline?

If only there was some way a player could sometimes struggle with positional discipline but other times get it right. 

But those are the only two types of positional discipline. 

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