Fundraise for Delia Out plane banner.

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

10 minutes ago, komakino said:

I would strongly disagree that those who want Delia & Michael are in a significant minority. There is a big split between fans, roughly for those who think they're great because they love the club and those who find them completely pointless and holding the club back with their parochial view of football. 

 

If that were true then how come specifically a call to raise money for an aerial banner produced a pittance and more generally how come there has not been some kind of organised attempt at least to press the case for change?

I don't believe you can reductively split fans into two opposing camps in that way, but even if you could I very much doubt the anti-Delia camp is anything like as numerous as you seem to suggest.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Uh...what?

Try having some random old bloke on a Norwich Forum slander your business online with no knowledge, then try having him private message people on Facebook to let them know i'm posting about "Delia Out" on the forum so I then get a load of personal abuse thrown at me on that platform from those involved - and then wonder why I occasionally respond to his childish antics on here?

Again, I hadn't posted on here today but he'd already left a snide remark. I get old people have less to do and have to socially distance a bit more than others at the moment but his behaviour is that of a 14 year old girl that has a bit of a crush.

But your language there is just inviting another pop back, isn't it? If you're the bigger and better man, just ignore him. Anyway, it was probably a mistake to get involved in the first place, so I'll just back gently away and leave you guys to it.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

6 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

If that were true then how come specifically a call to raise money for an aerial banner produced a pittance and more generally how come there has not been some kind of organised attempt at least to press the case for change?

I don't believe you can reductively split fans into two opposing camps in that way, but even if you could I very much doubt the anti-Delia camp is anything like as numerous as you seem to suggest.

This is kind of the point I was making to @Kenny Foggo just now. I'm not finger pointing and mocking anyone here, I'm just saying that if people like @komakino believe there are many thousands of fans out there who view our current owners as 'completely pointless' and 'holding the club back', why is there so much difficulty in galvanising these thousands of discontented voices and making them heard?

I would posit that the reason is that there really aren't that many of them. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong, and I (and Purple!) have both offered advice as to how we think any such movement would be better off conducting itself in order to gain credibility and momentum.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Feedthewolf

[komakino 272]

2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

If that were true then how come specifically a call to raise money for an aerial banner produced a pittance and more generally how come there has not been some kind of organised attempt at least to press the case for change?

I don't believe you can reductively split fans into two opposing camps in that way, but even if you could I very much doubt the anti-Delia camp is anything like as numerous as you seem to suggest.

In my experience, the older fans are more in the anti - Delia Out camp than the younger ones, though my nephew does share my logic in that she brings absolutely nothing to the table.

An aerial banner would be tacky and I haven't seen one since my days of youth watching World of Sport.!

[Badger 2,405]

Hardly anyone wants some big campaign to get rid of the current owners. It is just a fantasy amongst a few long-term malcontents, who, for the large part, have very little understanding of football finance.

They are encouraged by others whose posts cause me to question which club they truly support!

[Midlands Yellow 3,970]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

Hardly anyone wants some big campaign to get rid of the current owners. It is just a fantasy amongst a few long-term malcontents, who, for the large part, have very little understanding of football finance.

They are encouraged by others whose posts cause me to question which club they truly support!

Good afternoon Tom. 

[Badger 2,405]

Just now, Midlands Yellow said:

Good afternoon Tom. 

Ho ho. Very witty - once I worked out who Tom was.

[Midlands Yellow 3,970]

Just now, Badger said:

Ho ho. Very witty - once I worked out who Tom was.

It is Monday, no harm with a bit of banter. 

[nutty nigel 7,527]

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

Hardly anyone wants some big campaign to get rid of the current owners. It is just a fantasy amongst a few long-term malcontents, who, for the large part, have very little understanding of football finance.

They are encouraged by others whose posts cause me to question which club they truly support!

This in spades.

And many of the older ones are malcontents from previous regimes.

Once a malcontent.....

[komakino 272]

6 minutes ago, Badger said:

Hardly anyone wants some big campaign to get rid of the current owners. It is just a fantasy amongst a few long-term malcontents, who, for the large part, have very little understanding of football finance.

They are encouraged by others whose posts cause me to question which club they truly support!

I'm a business owner, so I'm very aware how finance works. However, football doesn't work to normal fiscal rules. 

My issue with Smith & Jones has always been that they neither seek or attract investment to NCFC. How does that help Norwich City Football Club? 

I have nothing against them personally, but professionally speaking they are superfluous to how football is in 2020, or indeed the last couple of decades before it. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by komakino

[king canary 7,599]

I do think it would be interesting to survey the opinions of the fans on this topic but honestly no idea how you'd go about it- obviously the club aren't going to hit the season ticket mailing list with 'do you rate the owners?' surveys so it would likely need to come from a fans group or even Archant (which seems highly unlikely).

[seanthecanary 168]

31 minutes ago, komakino said:

I would strongly disagree that those who want Delia & Michael are in a significant minority. There is a big split between fans, roughly for those who think they're great because they love the club and those who find them completely pointless and holding the club back with their parochial view of football. 

I don't think there is the will - at present - for any protests in the style of the infamous 'Chase Out' days, but if this season doesn't really happen then you may get more than the odd chant. 

Difference is between the late 90's and now is that the fans as a collective are much less ambitious. I don't recall any fan in the '90's wanting to be and/or preferring the 2nd Tier over the First (Chase never plumbed the depths of the third tier that Delia & Michael took us to), but it is common place to meet Norwich City fans who would rather be in The Championship and wanted us to be relegated. I have sadly met too many of those this season who concur with that point of view. 

Delia & Michael have stated on record that they do not listen to the offers that are made, but if one of those people - or consortium went public, then that would be very interesting, depending on who they were, how much money they had and what was known about them. 

Smith & Jones want to 'keep it in the family', but I think that is naive. Eventually they will have to sell because they will hit a wall, but I don't think that will happen for a while yet. 

What would ambition look like under new ownership? Assuming they are not super rich, what changes would you want see? It's a genuine question and am interested in the answer. I'm in neither camp of thinking they are great or not

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

22 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

If that were true then how come specifically a call to raise money for an aerial banner produced a pittance and more generally how come there has not been some kind of organised attempt at least to press the case for change?

I don't believe you can reductively split fans into two opposing camps in that way, but even if you could I very much doubt the anti-Delia camp is anything like as numerous as you seem to suggest.

I think you're spot on Purple, I think the number of people who actively oppose Delia and MWJ being in charge, that they're "pocketing the cash" etc and want them to leave right now is just a relative few, and they tend to be the more vocal and angry minority on places like the FB groups etc.

Where I suspect the swell of opinion gains credence are with fans who think Delia and MWJ have done a great job, but that they should be open and encouraging to outside investment if it helps us compete at the Premier League level, that are unhappy or skeptical in the succession plan with Tom taking over despite his own lack of wealth, who will support the "Project" for only as long as it brings success on the pitch, and who would welcome new ownership if it meant investment in the club and the playing squad in order to help establish ourselves in the EPL.

The way to gather and make that group of supporters heard will not be a direct attack on the current ownership, or by spitting obscenities on social media. Something less aggressive like a petition to open the future of the club up for discussion between the ownership and the fans as part of a more open and honest prospectus would be more likely to garner popular support. I've already started some designs on a website to that effect.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Canary Wundaboy

[hogesar 9,654]

16 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

But your language there is just inviting another pop back, isn't it? If you're the bigger and better man, just ignore him. Anyway, it was probably a mistake to get involved in the first place, so I'll just back gently away and leave you guys to it.

Well, I edited my original post to try and avoid *another* onslaught in my direction (probably worth noting the amount of posts that i DON'T bite back at, rather than just the one's I do, but i'll ignore that too).

Unfortunately it doesn't edit your quotes. Soooo I've probs not prevented anything.

[Midlands Yellow 3,970]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I do think it would be interesting to survey the opinions of the fans on this topic but honestly no idea how you'd go about it- obviously the club aren't going to hit the season ticket mailing list with 'do you rate the owners?' surveys so it would likely need to come from a fans group or even Archant (which seems highly unlikely).

Great idea, with options that cover all schools of thought. A simple yes or no and the current regime win but it’s a little more complicated than that. 

[nutty nigel 7,527]

3 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I think you're spot on Purple, I think the number of people who actively oppose Delia and MWJ being in charge, that they're "pocketing the cash" etc and want them to leave right now is just a relative few, and they tend to be the more vocal and angry minority on places like the FB groups etc.

Where I suspect the swell of opinion gains credence are with fans who think Delia and MWJ have done a great job, but that they should be open and encouraging to outside investment if it helps us compete at the Premier League level, that are unhappy or skeptical in the succession plan with Tom taking over despite his own lack of wealth, who will support the "Project" for only as long as it brings success on the pitch, and who would welcome new ownership if it meant investment in the club and the playing squad in order to help establish ourselves in the EPL.

The way to gather and make that group of supporters head will not be a direct attack on the current ownership, or by spitting obscenities on social media. Something less aggressive like a petition to open the future of the club up for discussion between the ownership and the fans as part of a more open and honest prospectus would be more likely to garner popular support. I've already started some designs on a website to that effect.

Top stuff👍

[komakino 272]

2 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

What would ambition look like under new ownership? Assuming they are not super rich, what changes would you want see? It's a genuine question and am interested in the answer. I'm in neither camp of thinking they are great or not

The short answer would be investment that gives club a chance of staying in the EPL with owners that want to be there. That part cannot be overstated. I'm totally in favour of developing youth, as any club should, but the self funding model isn't credible if you want to be in the top tier. 

[hogesar 9,654]

5 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I think you're spot on Purple, I think the number of people who actively oppose Delia and MWJ being in charge, that they're "pocketing the cash" etc and want them to leave right now is just a relative few, and they tend to be the more vocal and angry minority on places like the FB groups etc.

Where I suspect the swell of opinion gains credence are with fans who think Delia and MWJ have done a great job, but that they should be open and encouraging to outside investment if it helps us compete at the Premier League level, that are unhappy or skeptical in the succession plan with Tom taking over despite his own lack of wealth, who will support the "Project" for only as long as it brings success on the pitch, and who would welcome new ownership if it meant investment in the club and the playing squad in order to help establish ourselves in the EPL.

The way to gather and make that group of supporters head will not be a direct attack on the current ownership, or by spitting obscenities on social media. Something less aggressive like a petition to open the future of the club up for discussion between the ownership and the fans as part of a more open and honest prospectus would be more likely to garner popular support. I've already started some designs on a website to that effect.

I'd agree with that. Would obviously need the right people fronting it and I'm sure the board would be receptive - they've generally been an open book during their time in charge. Certainly if Tom is still going to be the next-in-charge we'll all want more information on that - although if it's not in the next couple of years I guess it's not immediately relevant.

[seanthecanary 168]

3 minutes ago, komakino said:

The short answer would be investment that gives club a chance of staying in the EPL with owners that want to be there. That part cannot be overstated. I'm totally in favour of developing youth, as any club should, but the self funding model isn't credible if you want to be in the top tier. 

Investment suggests though that whoever invests will want that money back, if not more. Or do you mean spend funds we don't have in a speculate to accumulate type thing?

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

7 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I think you're spot on Purple, I think the number of people who actively oppose Delia and MWJ being in charge, that they're "pocketing the cash" etc and want them to leave right now is just a relative few, and they tend to be the more vocal and angry minority on places like the FB groups etc.

Where I suspect the swell of opinion gains credence are with fans who think Delia and MWJ have done a great job, but that they should be open and encouraging to outside investment if it helps us compete at the Premier League level, that are unhappy or skeptical in the succession plan with Tom taking over despite his own lack of wealth, who will support the "Project" for only as long as it brings success on the pitch, and who would welcome new ownership if it meant investment in the club and the playing squad in order to help establish ourselves in the EPL.

The way to gather and make that group of supporters head will not be a direct attack on the current ownership, or by spitting obscenities on social media. Something less aggressive like a petition to open the future of the club up for discussion between the ownership and the fans as part of a more open and honest prospectus would be more likely to garner popular support. I've already started some designs on a website to that effect.

I think there is a lot in that. Myself, I would need to know much more about Tom Smith, and how much he has learned about the nuts and bolts of runing a football club,  and strategically how he would plan to run the club, and whether he would be open to an outside owner, before backing the current sucession plan. Any number of questions!

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

Just now, seanthecanary said:

Investment suggests though that whoever invests will want that money back, if not more. Or do you mean spend funds we don't have in a speculate to accumulate type thing?

New owners invests money to buy club > Club builds squad through promotion of youth supplemented with quality signings where needed > Club gets promoted > Club makes money via EPL TV cash, better advertising deals etc > When club is established after several seasons, owner can start withdrawing cash in sensible parts

Yes, I know that all sounds perfect, and yes I know that it may be a pipe dream, but at the moment we are surviving with zero investment, so the above MUST be possible to some degree, no?

[komakino 272]

Investment doesn't necessarily mean they would want it back. 

However, for example, if say £40M extra was spent per season I believe there would be more chance of us saying in the EPL, we would attract better players because of that - and with the owners positive stance on this - meaning that there would be more chance of the 'investors' getting it back if they chose to do so. 

I can see what the club is trying to do, but it is ultimately futile. 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by komakino

[komakino 272]

5 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

New owners invests money to buy club > Club builds squad through promotion of youth supplemented with quality signings where needed > Club gets promoted > Club makes money via EPL TV cash, better advertising deals etc > When club is established after several seasons, owner can start withdrawing cash in sensible parts

Yes, I know that all sounds perfect, and yes I know that it may be a pipe dream, but at the moment we are surviving with zero investment, so the above MUST be possible to some degree, no?

Very good post. 

[nutty nigel 7,527]

6 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

New owners invests money to buy club > Club builds squad through promotion of youth supplemented with quality signings where needed > Club gets promoted > Club makes money via EPL TV cash, better advertising deals etc > When club is established after several seasons, owner can start withdrawing cash in sensible parts

Yes, I know that all sounds perfect, and yes I know that it may be a pipe dream, but at the moment we are surviving with zero investment, so the above MUST be possible to some degree, no?

Except the starting point won't be the club we have now. It's not like "we continually get promoted so just need a few quid to stay there".

The starting point will be the club the new owner wants us to be.

It could work for sure. But remember most of our contemporaries don't even manage the promotion to get to the PL.

Edited August 10, 2020 by nutty nigel

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

It could work for sure. But remember most of our contemporaries don't even manage the promotion to get to the PL.

We've gone full circle Nutty, because I'm pretty sure this whole thing started with "sure it's great that we get promoted, but why do we continuously squander the opportunity to say there?!".

I don't have the answers, the only thing I know in my heart of hearts is that we will never stay up without being able to add quality to the squad when we get promoted. We don't need to overhaul the entire squad and do a Villa/Fulham, but not being able to make any improvements whatsoever is killing us time after time.

[seanthecanary 168]

6 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

New owners invests money to buy club > Club builds squad through promotion of youth supplemented with quality signings where needed > Club gets promoted > Club makes money via EPL TV cash, better advertising deals etc > When club is established after several seasons, owner can start withdrawing cash in sensible parts

Yes, I know that all sounds perfect, and yes I know that it may be a pipe dream, but at the moment we are surviving with zero investment, so the above MUST be possible to some degree, no?

Without a billionaire investors, that philosophy only works for a limited time for clubs of our size. Burnley are doing it at the moment but history suggests that a bad transfer or two or losing the manager and it ends. Charlton, Bolton, Portsmouth, Wigan, Stoke and others established themselves in the Premier League for it to all to come crashing down

[nutty nigel 7,527]

1 minute ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

We've gone full circle Nutty, because I'm pretty sure this whole thing started with "sure it's great that we get promoted, but why do we continuously squander the opportunity to say there?!".

I don't have the answers, the only thing I know in my heart of hearts is that we will never stay up without being able to add quality to the squad when we get promoted. We don't need to overhaul the entire squad and do a Villa/Fulham, but not being able to make any improvements whatsoever is killing us time after time.

But if we went just five seasons without returning people would be peed off and want the odd promotion again.

 

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

Just now, seanthecanary said:

Without a billionaire investors, that philosophy only works for a limited time for clubs of our size. Burnley are doing it at the moment but history suggests that a bad transfer or two or losing the manager and it ends. Charlton, Bolton, Portsmouth, Wigan, Stoke and others established themselves in the Premier League for it to all to come crashing down

Ok Sean, what's your solution? I appreciate there's lots of unknowns and lots of ways the approach can fail, so let's hear from you. Say Delia and MWJ do hand the club over to Tom and we don't seek or obtain outside investment, what's your solution for getting NFC established in the EPL? Because this is a sport, the point of a sport is to be competitive and achieve, and that means getting into the top league and competing against the top teams. Let's hear your plan? Or do you deem "success" as floating around in the 2nd tier, perhaps getting promoted, having a glory day and an open-top parade and being able to live off the EPL cash, or perhaps being 1-2 bad seasons away from financial issues and player firesales due to our sufficient model not leaving a safety net of a rich owner to step in if needed?

 

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

30 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I think you're spot on Purple, I think the number of people who actively oppose Delia and MWJ being in charge, that they're "pocketing the cash" etc and want them to leave right now is just a relative few, and they tend to be the more vocal and angry minority on places like the FB groups etc.

Where I suspect the swell of opinion gains credence are with fans who think Delia and MWJ have done a great job, but that they should be open and encouraging to outside investment if it helps us compete at the Premier League level, that are unhappy or skeptical in the succession plan with Tom taking over despite his own lack of wealth, who will support the "Project" for only as long as it brings success on the pitch, and who would welcome new ownership if it meant investment in the club and the playing squad in order to help establish ourselves in the EPL.

The way to gather and make that group of supporters heard will not be a direct attack on the current ownership, or by spitting obscenities on social media. Something less aggressive like a petition to open the future of the club up for discussion between the ownership and the fans as part of a more open and honest prospectus would be more likely to garner popular support. I've already started some designs on a website to that effect.

Run out of reactions today, CW, but I applaud this course of action.

[Badger 2,405]

30 minutes ago, king canary said:

I do think it would be interesting to survey the opinions of the fans on this topic but honestly no idea how you'd go about it- obviously the club aren't going to hit the season ticket mailing list with 'do you rate the owners?' surveys so it would likely need to come from a fans group or even Archant (which seems highly unlikely).

The answer was pretty clear from the attempt to raise £800  for the banner.

Even if there were a 1000 malcontents, they are not unhappy enough to give 80p to express their anger!