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Making the assumption that crowds will be allowed back at CR in the next 2 years. Why not build the new stand. The club won’t need to remove fans during the rebuild and suffer the income loss as we’re already suffering the income loss.  

Building companies will be bending over backwards to get the work so the cost will probably be cheaper than in ordinary world due to the impending higher unemployment and cheaper labour costs.

Borrowing will be cheap. There may well be government grants available which probably won’t be in normal world.

The cost can be offset off the profit from impending player sales.

It’s a risk but I think a good calculated gamble. What do you think?

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The last thing any football club needs is a bigger stadium. We won't be seeing 27000 in Carrow Rd for many many months if ever.

Focus needs to be on getting back to the EPL or planning survival once the parachute payments have run out.

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The idea has been mooted. Its a good idea if we don't have to borrow to do it. 

It is unlikely that next season will start with spectators but I'm sure that there has to be some attempt to help L1/2 clubs get some income. I think the EPL will not support them to the extent that is needed.

So I think the window to close 15-20% of the ground is closing.

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11 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

What does this mean ?

We would have to close the City Stand to enlarge the capacity. They are the more expensive seats I assume. 

And I think the Government will follow the Scandinavians and allow a certain amount of spectators back into grounds if there is not another spike.

So what I meant by window was, the length of time the ground will be empty of spectators.

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I understand your thinking - Coronavirus offers us the time to build the stand that has been considered by the club/fans for a long time. One obstacle has been the fact that it would leave us with 3 stands for half a season.

The funds may also be available if we were to sell Godfrey, Aarons, etc. Alternatively we could do another crowd fundraising initiative. 

However Michael Bailey mentioned that it would be unlikely that SW risked scuppering our chances of promotion to build a new stand.

I think that it will be considered.

I'd personally prefer it to be done on Webber's watch though - we can trust that he'd ensure that we were competitive on the field, whilst not risking the club's finances.

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The biggest issue which will face the club is if we sell too many players off the back of parachute payments the club would be liable for massive tax bills on profits, it’s better to spend as much of the profits as possible on any infrastructure which needs improvement. So if the virus does go on till the new year, it would make sense on two fronts to build a new stand as it will limit the financial burden and not put out the fans.

If the club is serious in expanding the old stand then now would be a very good time to do so.

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7 hours ago, Jersey Canary said:

Making the assumption that crowds will be allowed back at CR in the next 2 years. Why not build the new stand. The club won’t need to remove fans during the rebuild and suffer the income loss as we’re already suffering the income loss.  

Building companies will be bending over backwards to get the work so the cost will probably be cheaper than in ordinary world due to the impending higher unemployment and cheaper labour costs.

Borrowing will be cheap. There may well be government grants available which probably won’t be in normal world.

The cost can be offset off the profit from impending player sales.

It’s a risk but I think a good calculated gamble. What do you think?

As all calculations have shown, the amount gained if every seat is 100% occupied would not cover the building cost for at least 15-20s years

I cannot therefore see any case being made for losing more money

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We seem to be doing all of our transfer business early, which is smart.

As stated before, if we sell Aarons for 25 million, other clubs will know that we're minted and start demanding more for their players.

All of our signings thus far have been relatively cheap (possibly with the exemption of Man), so we may potentially have a fair bit of money by the end of the summer. 

I wouldn't be surprised if it happened - we probably won't get a better time to do it. Webber/McNally said that we'll have to be a stable PL club for us to build a new stand... when is that going to happen? None of the teams outside of the 'big six' can really say that for sure.

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It would, of course, be a masterstroke should:-

(a) We get promotion straight away.

(b) Crowds are allowed to return sooner rather than later.

I'm still generally in favour though and the points about very low interest rates and tax reduction are extremely valid in helping to mitigate against costs.

The Main Stand doesn't get any younge or any bigger.

A competitive season next time around, whilst not being assured, seems likely especially as we won't be the only club in the Championship to have taken a financial hit in the last months.

The old chestnut about re-construction taking years to cover costs is an example of narrow thinking and lack of ambition and fails to take in to account fact that increased capacity today will surely assist towards building up a bigger fan base for the future by being more accessable to the young, whilst assuming that the club continues upon it's present trajectory which, even with set-backs has been upwards for the past two decades.  Neither is it just seat sales that account for matchday income.

Waiting lists, a general increase of the local population and the seeming terminal decline of our nearest rivals which increase our appeal to the border areas and beyond are factors to be taken into account also when assessing future fanbase.

Something about 'speculate to accumulate' rings a bell here.

Nobody is envisaging expansion that would set the club back financially for years either; that lesson will have been learned from those rivals. It's replacing one well-worn, dated and embarrassment of an old stand for goodness sake not a re-construction of White Hart Lane proportions, whilst even lowly Rotherham saw it fit to able to invest/accumulate getting on for £20m to build the New York Stadium which has a capacity of just 12, 000.

Edited by BroadstairsR
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On 08/07/2020 at 08:48, Jersey Canary said:

Making the assumption that crowds will be allowed back at CR in the next 2 years. Why not build the new stand. The club won’t need to remove fans during the rebuild and suffer the income loss as we’re already suffering the income loss.  

Building companies will be bending over backwards to get the work so the cost will probably be cheaper than in ordinary world due to the impending higher unemployment and cheaper labour costs.

Borrowing will be cheap. There may well be government grants available which probably won’t be in normal world.

The cost can be offset off the profit from impending player sales.

It’s a risk but I think a good calculated gamble. What do you think?

Completely agree, but if the owners won’t let the club show ambition by investing sufficiently in the squad then I can’t see them being prepared to take the risk of building another tier on the main stand.  It doesn’t fit with the long term plan of making sure we remain little old Norwich.

Edited by Jonncfc
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1 hour ago, Jonncfc said:

Completely agree, but if the owners won’t let the club show ambition by investing sufficiently in the squad then I can’t see them being prepared to take the risk of building another tier on the main stand.  It doesn’t fit with the long term plan of making sure we remain little old Norwich.

You misunderstand (like many do) the owners. The long term plan is not to remain the same, taking no risks - it is to develop the club at a pace it can afford taking calculated risks. So the new extension to the main stand - and proof of their intention of doing that is the buying of land behind it - will happen at such time when the club has built enough assets by a combination of player sales and PL money if we can get back there.

But there is no point in doing it now. There are too many uncertainties at the moment, not enough money saved and the knowledge that the main spend still has to be getting players in that will ensure we do well on the pitch.

The plan is to ensure that Norwich becomes (if it isn't already) the go to club for top class young players who want to develop their career in the knowledge that they will get top class coaching and career development and better opportunities to get to first team match time than elsewhere. Doing that over four or five years with success on the pitch and selling on players as they flourish will increase the assets of the club to the point it can go ahead with further infrastructure improvements, maybe combined with another Canary Bond scheme which worked so well before.

Ambition, club development, a structured plan, brilliant young players choosing us because of our reputation for youth development, forward thinking management set up with Sporting director and great coaching set up, owners who leave footballing matters to professionals, a great Academy set up, a fine stadium with potential to grow it, a fan base most of who are tremendously supportive of what the club is doing..... ALL of that because of the owners we have. And some people still don't get it..........

 

 

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There is no perfect time to do it. There are better times to do it though - and this summer is probably one of them.

 

If expanding wasn't financially viable we would still be watching games in a 10-15k ground.

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7 minutes ago, Darth Vadis said:

There is no perfect time to do it. There are better times to do it though - and this summer is probably one of them.

If expanding wasn't financially viable we would still be watching games in a 10-15k ground.

Absolute nonsense

The South Stand was forced on us by the stand not likely to pass a safety certificate

Carrow Road never has had that capacity

Simply divide the current return per seat = approx £400

4000 seats x £400 returns the club £1.6m per season.... which would not pay the interest on a loan, never mind capital repayments

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Doubt it would be possible to get plans, get permission, find contractors to do the work and get it done before fans are allowed back into stadiums - Norwich need ticket income more than ever when in the Championship. 
 

The time to expand will be when Norwich have a couple of Premier League seasons under their belts and income from tickets is dwarfed by TV income. 

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Couple of years behind us

How many times have we had that chance and not taken it.

Only way we’ll see a new stand if we have a another fire

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38 minutes ago, Darth Vadis said:

There is no perfect time to do it. There are better times to do it though - and this summer is probably one of them.

 

If expanding wasn't financially viable we would still be watching games in a 10-15k ground.

I agree with Bethnal that it almost certainly won't happen now. As you indicate, it is just that the possibility, if it comes to that, of having many millions left over from transfer sales would mean the finances would make even more sense than they would do at another time, with either a much smaller loan than otherwise needed or no loan needed at all.

Sensible expansion has always made financial sense in the long run, with the extra seats more than paying for themselves, but what is annoyingly tempting is this window of opportunity in which you would not need to wait to the longterm for the finances to work out.

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33 minutes ago, Bill said:

Absolute nonsense

The South Stand was forced on us by the stand not likely to pass a safety certificate

Carrow Road never has had that capacity

Simply divide the current return per seat = approx £400

4000 seats x £400 returns the club £1.6m per season.... which would not pay the interest on a loan, never mind capital repayments

The Barclay the River End and the City stand just appeared then did they?

Also not taking into account other revenue streams a new stand will bring in such as corporate events, gigs, boxes, new restaurant (?).

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The Main Stand was replaced because of fire

You cannot simply generate more hospitality revenue because of facilities

And when was the ground's capacity ever 10-15,000 capacity

 

you do seem to be rather lacking in knowledge of the club....... I wonder why 🤔

 

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8 minutes ago, Bill said:

you do seem to be rather lacking in knowledge of the club....... I wonder why 🤔

 

Am I meant to be an Ipswich supporter as well or something?

What about a member of the North Korean secret service!

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1 minute ago, Darth Vadis said:

Am I meant to be an Ipswich supporter as well or something?

What about a member of the North Korean secret service!

No. just a clueless idiot with a grudge against the club

I would get more out of a game of darts with Stevie Wonder, so you'll have to find someone else to lie to

ta ra

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25 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I agree with Bethnal that it almost certainly won't happen now. As you indicate, it is just that the possibility, if it comes to that, of having many millions left over from transfer sales would mean the finances would make even more sense than they would do at another time, with either a much smaller loan than otherwise needed or no loan needed at all.

Sensible expansion has always made financial sense in the long run, with the extra seats more than paying for themselves, but what is annoyingly tempting is this window of opportunity in which you would not need to wait to the longterm for the finances to work out.

Yeah, I think thats probably the reason of my wishful thinking (not having to replace current ST holders) as thats always one of the biggest obstacles to overcome when this topic gets brought up.

Just think even when we do go up, so will our wages and fees. It does just feel like the new stand is always 3 years away or something.

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"And when was the ground's capacity ever 10-15,000 capacity?"

 

 

What would the all-seater capacity of the ground be had the previous expansions not taken place?

A club which averaged 24, 500 during one season in L. 1, which followed a particularly disastrous few seasons of Championship awfulness, is a factor which always needs mentioning when discussing potential.

I see NCFC as a business which has, for the most part in the last decade at least, been unable to cope with demand.

The fact that the young, who by definition are less well off, are at the forefront of this failure because of the difficulty buying tickets on a casual basis surely has a negative effect upon the expansion of the fanbase in the future.

Exiled supporters are disadvantaged as well. I have not visited Carrow Road for two whole seasons now. I had previously been fortunate enough to get an invite to a "box." Now that this privilege has gone it has been difficult, not impossible I admit, to pick and chose attendance on a casual basis. Exiles don't, as a whole, buy season tickets. 

Edited by BroadstairsR

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Just now, Bill said:

No. just a clueless idiot with a grudge against the club

I would get more out of a game of darts with Stevie Wonder, so you'll have to find someone else to lie to

ta ra

Hahaha

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A new bigger more modern City stand has been needed since the Worthy days. The average attendance figures back that up as a previous poster picked up on - in the 00's despite 4 low key/ downward spiral 2nd tier seasons the average never dropped under 24,000 and the 09/10 3rd Division campaign saw average crowds just under 25,000 which prompted the club to increase the capacity by 1000 in the summer of 2010. Talk to officials in the club and its reckoned that quite a few top flight games in the following seasons could of attracted 40,000 crowds had it been possible.

 

The City stand has the foundations for a 2nd tier but the club has said it would probably be better to knock it down and replace with a new bigger and more up to date stand.

 

If the Wensum and snake pit corner infills were left with just the original 1986 3200 City stand on the side knocked down and replaced it would mean the ground capacity would be reduced to about 24,000 during the construction period. If the new stand was a replica of the South stand then it would represent a capacity increase of about 5000 taking the overall figure to 32,000. - Further expansions like replacing those corner infills could be done at a later date and the plans could even allow for the design to enable it to continue to wrap around and replace the current Barclay and River end stands but obviously those would be a long time into the future. 

 

Trouble is all this costs money and could be detrimental to the on field activities but at sometime in the future they are needed. Theres no doubt a 32,000 capacity Carrow Road would be filled for most games in the top flight but wouldn't out it.

 

The land strip purchases behind the City Stand and Barclay end indicate the club have their eye on increasing capacity.

 

Could it be done in the next year or so using parachute payments, player sales, a Bond scheme, naming rights for the new stand and including non football income stream possibilities in the new stand design?

Edited by kingsway

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I would rather see most investment in the team rather than the ground at this moment in time. Carrow Road is suitable for our needs ... At the moment.

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In my view this would have been the ideal time. No millstones threatening the future of the club, likely soon to be cash rich,  borrowing has never been cheaper, realistic possibility that there will be no/less crowd to displace for some time yet.  

The planning permission should already be in the bag but since its not we will have to wait,  meaning that this is a rather academic debate.

Now of course had we put the plans in a year ago....

I am an ardent supporter of expansion. It'll likely be directly and indirectly good for long term finances, it'll help attract players at all levels/ not dissuade them from signing and, most importantly, open up the match day experience to more people.

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