Crumbling foundations

[Duncan Edwards 1,980]

Tin hat on. 

 

 

https://duncanedwards8.wordpress.com/2020/07/05/the-foundations-have-crumbled/

[Branston Pickle 3,257]

Unfortunately this is all rather based on assumptions.   When things are going well players and supporters will feel ‘up’, so it’s hardly world shattering news that the opposite might also be true.  It’s certainly not an indication that everything is going to/has fallen apart.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Branston Pickle

[sonyc 5,015]

5 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Tin hat on. 

 

 

https://duncanedwards8.wordpress.com/2020/07/05/the-foundations-have-crumbled/

Nice post, good punchy points as ever. I agree that our football has become "soulless", a good way of describing it. It somehow hasn't been us.

Yet, your first paragraph contains the  victory bus breakdown. I worried at the time that it was a massive great big metaphor, looming over the coming season. A bus that couldn't even get into gear. Next time someone from the club ought to do the pre victory tour planning, such was their attention to detail last time round.

Onwards anyway. 

 

[hogesar 8,585]

Basically as we've learnt before our fans dont really have the bottle for any long term planning, so do we deserve any potential benefits from it?

I think that's a bit harsh as most of the serious criticism is from the same people who criticise every season apart from when we win promotion where they just keep quiet.

[sonyc 5,015]

7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Basically as we've learnt before our fans dont really have the bottle for any long term planning, so do we deserve any potential benefits from it?

I think that's a bit harsh as most of the serious criticism is from the same people who criticise every season apart from when we win promotion where they just keep quiet.

If we do believe in the long term plan, the one presented, (which I do) then we are right on target. It's how we do next season that matters. Would we accept being in the top 6 from the start of next season? I suspect we certainly would. If we CAN do that with an experienced DF and team in place, our reputation (and we are gaining reputation) will mean lots of clubs will fear us.

Perspective isn't very common.

[nutty nigel 6,937]

Well we don't really know. To be fair the flags were still flying and the atmosphere still pretty positive back at that last game at Carra in February. Although there was a much more negative atmosphere on social media.

On Feb 28th the season ended for us. So much so that the tickets were/will be refunded.

Up until the end of Feb we had Farkeball now we have fakeball. And social media is the only noise. A place where football clubs are transformed into "them and us" and "one city strong" is loudly ridiculed as weakness.

[Uncle Fred 526]

As ever excellent Mr E

The pain I am getting is the humiliation of all the juice taking by other fans, the mock sympathy, the it is just the Norwich way to fail

this has been the most embarrassing season I can remember as a Norwich fan and a clear new low. That cannot go unanswered at the club or a new kind of Norwich disease will set in

This disaster of a season has to be a turning point for our club as after all the stowmarket 2’s long term plan has been going for 20 years and it isn’t working. 
 

Patience has ended and time for new direction 

[sgncfc 1,158]

There's a sentence in this article which sums up the Farke/Webber problem - "I thought we'd stay up relatively easily".

That's the problem. Despite their warnings; despite the fact we didn't spend anything; despite the injuries; despite the lack of strength in depth. Too many people were cushioned into thinking we would stay up relatively easily; and too many of those people are now the ones who are being most critical.

Accused of being a doom monger early on, the games at places like Burnley and Palace convinced me early on that this was going to be hard. The injury crisis, the games against Villa and VAR poking it's nose in reinforced that view. We never had enough, and now in reflection we never really had a chance when we couldn't arrest the goals flying into our net. We needed a few 0-0's at those places like Burnley, Palace, Brighton and even at home to Watford. The fact that we didn't get them or even try to play for them was a good sign that we were always off the pace. Improving a defence which conceded 58 goals in the Championship was essential for us to have any chance - we didn't do that. Call that a management or a recruitment failure if you like, but that's the reason we're going back down. We thought they could step up - they did, but not by enough. Even the Ben Godfrey's and the Max Aaron's of this world couldn't bridge the gap.

Does that mean the "project" is over? No. Playing without the crowd or the vocal away following bears out precisely that this is a community thing - the players were never up for it and can't respond.

So what happens now? We refresh and move on. We are a better team/squad/club than when this project started. We are still one of the top 25. We get new blood and bank the money from some of the team who failed to stay up and who want to have another crack elsewhere - and yes, still earn the bigger bucks because why shouldn't they? Show young players that their routes to stardom and higher earnings are via our first team squad, and back them with some experience. People are concerned about all our younger players being sold, but surely that is what is now supposed to happen?

And our expectations for next season? Well, the project says top 25 - so, a playoff campaign is the minimum for its continued success, but please let's not get into this, "I thought we'd get automatic relatively easily" - because that way lies further disappointment. 

Expectation is the hardest thing to manage. Stay with it, keep grounded and enjoy the quality of the football and the growth of our new youngsters when it happens.

[nutty nigel 6,937]

8 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

As ever excellent Mr E

The pain I am getting is the humiliation of all the juice taking by other fans, the mock sympathy, the it is just the Norwich way to fail

this has been the most embarrassing season I can remember as a Norwich fan and a clear new low. That cannot go unanswered at the club or a new kind of Norwich disease will set in

This disaster of a season has to be a turning point for our club as after all the stowmarket 2’s long term plan has been going for 20 years and it isn’t working. 
 

Patience has ended and time for new direction 

Except a long term view would suggest it is working..

[Jim Smith 2,037]

I’ve never been fully onboard with the suggestion that we just go down and come back stronger but my main nervousness with the “project” now is that whereas previously I was confident that in Webber and Farke we absolutely have the right men to give us the best chance of bouncing back this season has cast doubt on that in my mind and made me wonder whether we just got rather lucky last season.

Fundamentally for our model to succeed both Webber and Farke need to be on top of their game when it comes to recruitment and tactics. Both have not been great this season and to be honest Farke appears to have lost the plot since the lockdown. 

[benchwarmer 589]

Webber states that the aim is to establish Norwich City as "a top 25 club".  What does that really mean?

It means that we can go up for a season, get relegated, cop a load of parachute money and call it success.  I call it cynicism.  "Self-funded" my ar$e.

Either we're serious about the top flight or we're not.  I think we know the answer, and the sad thing is that too many fans are fine with it.  

In horseracing, there are penalties for "non-triers".  If it was extended to football we'd be in dead trouble.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by benchwarmer

[Mason 47 1,159]

22 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Basically as we've learnt before our fans dont really have the bottle for any long term planning, so do we deserve any potential benefits from it?

I think that's a bit harsh as most of the serious criticism is from the same people who criticise every season apart from when we win promotion where they just keep quiet.

To be fair Hoggy I think that's going to be true of any fanbase. Supporting a team is a passion and 'waiting for a positive long-term outcome based on sensible and measured planning' doesn't really fit the blueprint for that, or at least that's what my ex told me.

Even if you take someone like Wolves whose owners (at a reach) could be said to have come in with the plan to be playing European football within 2 years; they dropped a stack of cash and worked cleverly with Jorge Mendes and it came off, but if they had stagnated and finished 17th and 16th the fans would have been dusting off the 'You've Let Us Down Again' posters without a moments hesitation.

For me, Webber & Farke got a few things wrong this season but from what I know particularly about the former, he will already have picked through the bones of this season to update our plans and make it less likely to happen again. Marginal gains and all that. The only real worry will be if the trials of this season have damaged the process too much to pull it back, but I imagine that's where Farkes 'different group of players' comments come from- I think we intend to start next season as the 'big fish' and know it.

 

[Surfer 1,544]

27 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Well we don't really know. To be fair the flags were still flying and the atmosphere still pretty positive back at that last game at Carra in February. Although there was a much more negative atmosphere on social media.

This  - anyone who ignores the positive effect of a committed home crowd on a team fighting for promotion or against relegation just isn't thinking straight. This is a season end like nothing I can recall, so I suggest it's best to put all the navel gazing to one side and start to focus on next year. We will go again, we know our style of football works in the Championship. We will all be fine. Together. 

[PurpleCanary 5,268]

But there is no sign the foundations have crumbled. A lousy end to one season does not necessarily equate to that and as far as I can see certainly not in this case.

[Capt. Pants 3,532]

Great piece DE I can relate to a lot of that.

Soulless, a fantastic way to describe our football.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,171]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

But there is no sign the foundations have crumbled. A lousy end to one season does not necessarily equate to that and as far as I can see certainly not in this case.

Agreed. Not sure anyone is sensibly saying the foundations have crumbled. On the other hand , a suggestion that a football fan sees their side lose 5 in a row , and we all skip happily to the virtual pub proclaiming “fear not , the 5 year plan is all that matters”  is unlikely . 
 

Real danger that we over evaluate what being a football fan actually means . I think we have been rubbish over the last five games. And I’m not happy about it. End of. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Graham Paddons Beard

[Uncle Fred 526]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

Except a long term view would suggest it is working..

How many premier league, fa cups and league cups have we won in that time

how many times have we appeared in European competition 

how many fa cup/ league cup finals have we reached

those are the prizes we go for and it’s been very very baron under the stowmarket 2 

 

[nutty nigel 6,937]

Just now, Uncle Fred said:

How many premier league, fa cups and league cups have we won in that time

how many times have we appeared in European competition 

how many fa cup/ league cup finals have we reached

those are the prizes we go for and it’s been very very baron under the stowmarket 2 

 

Had we got new owners in 2009 like you all wanted I guarantee you'd be saying the last 10 were a real success and proved getting rid of your stowmarket two was justified

[FCC 73]

When Webber arrived he was dismissive of Alex Neil.  Whilst this relegation is worse than that on the pitch, we don’t have to sell players and we aren’t saddled with huge salaries.

The test is can we compete in the Championship.  If we now have a philosophy at the club, it has to make us competitive next season, and has to include more pace, and more muscle. 

I think (with the exception of Alex) Bradley Johnson had more physical and mental strength than the current entire combined midfield of the club. 

[Yellow and Green 325]

1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

There's a sentence in this article which sums up the Farke/Webber problem - "I thought we'd stay up relatively easily".

That's the problem. Despite their warnings; despite the fact we didn't spend anything; despite the injuries; despite the lack of strength in depth. Too many people were cushioned into thinking we would stay up relatively easily; and too many of those people are now the ones who are being most critical.

Accused of being a doom monger early on, the games at places like Burnley and Palace convinced me early on that this was going to be hard. The injury crisis, the games against Villa and VAR poking it's nose in reinforced that view. We never had enough, and now in reflection we never really had a chance when we couldn't arrest the goals flying into our net. We needed a few 0-0's at those places like Burnley, Palace, Brighton and even at home to Watford. The fact that we didn't get them or even try to play for them was a good sign that we were always off the pace. Improving a defence which conceded 58 goals in the Championship was essential for us to have any chance - we didn't do that. Call that a management or a recruitment failure if you like, but that's the reason we're going back down. We thought they could step up - they did, but not by enough. Even the Ben Godfrey's and the Max Aaron's of this world couldn't bridge the gap.

Does that mean the "project" is over? No. Playing without the crowd or the vocal away following bears out precisely that this is a community thing - the players were never up for it and can't respond.

So what happens now? We refresh and move on. We are a better team/squad/club than when this project started. We are still one of the top 25. We get new blood and bank the money from some of the team who failed to stay up and who want to have another crack elsewhere - and yes, still earn the bigger bucks because why shouldn't they? Show young players that their routes to stardom and higher earnings are via our first team squad, and back them with some experience. People are concerned about all our younger players being sold, but surely that is what is now supposed to happen?

And our expectations for next season? Well, the project says top 25 - so, a playoff campaign is the minimum for its continued success, but please let's not get into this, "I thought we'd get automatic relatively easily" - because that way lies further disappointment. 

Expectation is the hardest thing to manage. Stay with it, keep grounded and enjoy the quality of the football and the growth of our new youngsters when it happens.

Maybe the most important post of the season.

 

This season was a shocker. All of the recruitment flopped and our luck (injuries, VAR, whatever) didn't help. We'll ignore DF's shortcomings for now. 

 

It doesn't mean that the plan is over. We, as suppirters, need to maintain faith in and trust that they will learn from their mistakes this season.

[Uncle Fred 526]

2 minutes ago, Yellow and Green said:

Maybe the most important post of the season.

 

This season was a shocker. All of the recruitment flopped and our luck (injuries, VAR, whatever) didn't help. We'll ignore DF's shortcomings for now. 

 

It doesn't mean that the plan is over. We, as suppirters, need to maintain faith in and trust that they will learn from their mistakes this season.

There is little evidence that the stowmarket 2 ever learn 

until proper long term ownership is in place this top 26 nonsense is going to be the height of their ambitions

[yellowrider120 634]

13 minutes ago, FCC said:

When Webber arrived he was dismissive of Alex Neil.  Whilst this relegation is worse than that on the pitch, we don’t have to sell players and we aren’t saddled with huge salaries.

The test is can we compete in the Championship.  If we now have a philosophy at the club, it has to make us competitive next season, and has to include more pace, and more muscle. 

I think (with the exception of Alex) Bradley Johnson had more physical and mental strength than the current entire combined midfield of the club. 

Of course we do (and will). How else is the projected loss of c£20$cetde oF 

[Dr Greenthumb 719]

25 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

How many premier league, fa cups and league cups have we won in that time

how many times have we appeared in European competition 

how many fa cup/ league cup finals have we reached

those are the prizes we go for and it’s been very very baron under the stowmarket 2 

 

We’ve been trying to stay in the premiership for 20 odd years, it may happen one day

[yellowrider120 634]

How else is the projected loss of c£15M (possibly £20M,) going to be paid off? Same happened in summer two years ago when James Maddison got sold 'to balance the books'.   Other than that, I agree with the rest of your post.

[king canary 6,851]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Basically as we've learnt before our fans dont really have the bottle for any long term planning, so do we deserve any potential benefits from it?

I think that's a bit harsh as most of the serious criticism is from the same people who criticise every season apart from when we win promotion where they just keep quiet.

I think our fans have plenty of bottle. Most understood going up that it was going to be a tough season and that there was a decent chance we'd come back down, myself included.

What I (and I believe others) didn't expect and can't just shrug off and say 'oh well' is two things...

1- Spending a historically low amount on trying to improve our squad in a new league.

2- The fact we basically never looked like staying up post Man City and the fact we've gone down with such a wimper post lockdown. 

Long term plan or no long term plan, those things are hard to take.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,289]

The phrase “we have a plan” does not excuse poor performances, awful team selection and poor tactics. It also is used as an excuse for owners that can not afford to fund the club as a proper EPL outfit rather than a bargain basement Championship side.

[Midlands Yellow 3,508]

Football has been fairly awful since it’s return but I’m glad teams are being promoted and rightly so relegated. Hoping the virus might save us stunk of desperation like a condemned man pleading insanity after getting sent to the gallows. 

 

[Mr.Carrow 327]

Even if we sold our six top young players we are looking at £140m plus income on top of parachute payments. That is an absolute game changer for NCFC. Those young players, whilst hugely talented, have shown inconsistency and errors, plus we have players such as Vrancic, Hernandez, Zimmerman and Stieperman who were excellent in the championship. I don't see how anybody could spin that as a bad position. Of course, the club could screw it up but essentially we are going to have the tools for a big strengthening and we have a guy at the top who's recruitment has been largely excellent. 

[Creative Midfielder 1,925]

3 hours ago, sonyc said:

Nice post, good punchy points as ever. I agree that our football has become "soulless", a good way of describing it. It somehow hasn't been us.

I kind of agree with that description although I don't really think it is intrinsically much to do with us - the Premier League is soulless, or sterile is more the way I usually think of it.

So yes, as the season has gone on that sterility has crept into our play and now as we're playing out this entirely pointless charade it has completely taken over. The players look as though they would be rather be anywhere than on the pitch and personally I don't blame one bit - they may be earning fantastic sums of cash but I doubt that makes them feel any better having to put their own and their families health at risk to participate in this ongoing farce.

I'm pretty hopeful that back in the Championship, and with the bonus of no VAR, we can look forward to another season of exciting vibrant football, assuming that we are playing in front of crowds - and there lies the problem. The stupidity of the footballing authorities in allowing this totally artificial end to the season may well be setting a precendent that will wreck next season as well as it seems highly unlikely we're going to be able to watch games in packed stadiums in a couple of months time (even if we have finished this season by then!).

[daly 449]

Football has changed immensely over the last 10/20 years, the only way now for success is for someone with money to take over the club and spend money on the infrastructure of the club and being able to put money into the youth policy and not having to sell players to survive. I have watched us from the Div. 3 South days and over all those years we have had to sell to survive. Nothing will change if Master Tom takes over. This city deserves a Premiership side but as we’ve seen since the early 90’s it’s been a struggle to maintain a successful run in the EPL. I have been a shareholder in the club for more years than I care to remember, Managers come and go but over the years we have had the same type of owners since Geoff Watling, Arthur South, Robert Chase,Delia and next Master Tom so future NCFC  fans will be treated to the occasional jaunt into TP but will continue to struggle.

Brighton,Bournemouth, Stoke Wolves have managed to survive and good luck to them

Next season In The Championship and probably without the crowd and the departure of Aaron’s Cantwell Godfrey Buendia  can only see years of Championship football.