What is happening here?

[king canary 7,580]

Just before we conceded.

Klose stepping out of defence so Tettey wisely drops in behind. However Aarons and Lewis are pushed into the Brighton half meaning 3 of our back 4 are forward. So you need some midfield cover- but McLean can be seen at the top of the picture charging towards the opposite penalty area.

Sure its a dogs dog**** ball from Klose but it shouldn't leave us as exposed as it does

What is the plan here? Tactically, what is the plan? It seems like everyone is just told to do what they want.

(Apologies for the ****e screenshot)

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

To be fair and the pass intended for Duda reached Duda we'd have been in good shape as it would have taken out 6 Brighton players who would then be ahead of the ball, however, as we saw the pass didn't get to Duda and we managed to hot a Brighton meaning we now had 7 players on tie wrong side of the ball and Brighton had acres of space to exploit.

Fine margins and all that....

[sgncfc 1,221]

1 minute ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

To be fair and the pass intended for Duda reached Duda we'd have been in good shape as it would have taken out 6 Brighton players who would then be ahead of the ball, however, as we saw the pass didn't get to Duda and we managed to hot a Brighton meaning we now had 7 players on tie wrong side of the ball and Brighton had acres of space to exploit.

Fine margins and all that....

Except that they did that about 6 times, so not that fine really.

[king canary 7,580]

1 minute ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

To be fair and the pass intended for Duda reached Duda we'd have been in good shape as it would have taken out 6 Brighton players who would then be ahead of the ball, however, as we saw the pass didn't get to Duda and we managed to hot a Brighton meaning we now had 7 players on tie wrong side of the ball and Brighton had acres of space to exploit.

Fine margins and all that....

But it isn't fine margins. Your team shape is important precisely because the pass might not find its target.

For me there are two main issues here- McLean shouldn't be making this charge forward and needs to hold his position more, and Aarons needs to hold back a bit. That way Klose still has options but we're not totally exposed of the pass doesn't find its target.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, sgncfc said:

Except that they did that about 6 times, so not that fine really.

Agree, if you give the ball away cheaply in this league is costs you.

My point about fine margins is that had the pass found Duda wed be in a good attacking position, appreciate we'd then go back to Krul but at least we'd start of going the right way.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

But it isn't fine margins. Your team shape is important precisely because the pass might not find its target.

For me there are two main issues here- McLean shouldn't be making this charge forward and needs to hold his position more, and Aarons needs to hold back a bit. That way Klose still has options but we're not totally exposed of the pass doesn't find its target.

Agree but he's tried the killer pass, his best option was the simple one left to Lewis

[king canary 7,580]

2 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Agree but he's tried the killer pass, his best option was the simple one left to Lewis

True- I guess my point is more that trying and failing a killer ball shouldn't leave us so totally exposed. 

[Aggy 752]

3 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

To be fair and the pass intended for Duda reached Duda we'd have been in good shape as it would have taken out 6 Brighton players who would then be ahead of the ball, however, as we saw the pass didn't get to Duda and we managed to hot a Brighton meaning we now had 7 players on tie wrong side of the ball and Brighton had acres of space to exploit.

Fine margins and all that....

 

1 minute ago, sgncfc said:

Except that they did that about 6 times, so not that fine really.

If you’ve got world class players who can make those fine margins work in your favour, and you’re playing significantly weaker opposition then you can take more risks. But we are financially the worst off team in the division, with the weakest and most cheaply assembled squad. You have to at least a little bit play the percentages. 
 

It’s really frustrating because if we’re going to pass it across the back four slowly (the point of which is to keep possession patiently and try and drag an opponent out of position) then why do we then later play a small percentage pass by a centre half. There’s a simple pass on in the screen shot to Lewis. We don’t lose possession, we aren’t out of shape, we aren’t hit on the counter, we can continue to patiently prod and probe with much less risk. 
 

Also telling on the screenshot is how deep the rest of our defence must be. I said it after the shower that was Southampton’s second goal, why is there so much space between the lines? If the defence is 10 (or 15? - who knows as they’re not even on screen) yards higher up then you squeeze the play, make it harder for the opposition on the break, harder for opponents not to get caught offside.

That gap to the right of Klose is criminal. Three Brighton players with forty or so yards to run into with not a single City player in sight. 

[Aggy 752]

6 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Agree but he's tried the killer pass, his best option was the simple one left to Lewis

Posted this while I was typing my response so hadn’t seen it (and now out of reactions) - but agreed! 

[Mason 47 1,373]

14 minutes ago, king canary said:

Just before we conceded.

Klose stepping out of defence so Tettey wisely drops in behind. However Aarons and Lewis are pushed into the Brighton half meaning 3 of our back 4 are forward. So you need some midfield cover- but McLean can be seen at the top of the picture charging towards the opposite penalty area.

Sure its a dogs dog**** ball from Klose but it shouldn't leave us as exposed as it does

What is the plan here? Tactically, what is the plan? It seems like everyone is just told to do what they want.

(Apologies for the ****e screenshot)

This is a drum I've been banging for a while now.

When we were performing well this year, people were citing Pep's City in that we played within ourselves and kept the ball before springing forward- I may be wrong but Guardiola says you need to make 20 passes to see the opposition start to lose concentration.

As the season has worn on we've gotten much more 'insistent', the players charge forwards like an u12 team and we try to get from defence to attack in 1 or 2 very risky passes through the midfield. I think this is borne of having a young, inexperienced side but also the increasing desperation of the situation.

It's naive on the players, also Farke- however, he has shown cognition of this even recently by going more solid with Rupp etc where there were some benefits. Emi and Todd are good but not quite good enough to play without support and make a difference; our defensive game isn't good enough to warrant 7 attack-minded players at this level.

[Aggy 752]

1 minute ago, Mason 47 said:

This is a drum I've been banging for a while now.

When we were performing well this year, people were citing Pep's City in that we played within ourselves and kept the ball before springing forward- I may be wrong but Guardiola says you need to make 20 passes to see the opposition start to lose concentration.

As the season has worn on we've gotten much more 'insistent', the players charge forwards like an u12 team and we try to get from defence to attack in 1 or 2 very risky passes through the midfield. I think this is borne of having a young, inexperienced side but also the increasing desperation of the situation.

It's naive on the players, also Farke- however, he has shown cognition of this even recently by going more solid with Rupp etc where there were some benefits. Emi and Todd are good but not quite good enough to play without support and make a difference; our defensive game isn't good enough to warrant 7 attack-minded players at this level.

Agree with all that.

I’d also add though that the movement in front isn’t great. I said above there’s a simple pass in to Lewis. But if Duda (I think it is - just to the left of the ref) is ten or fifteen yards yards close to Klose, moving into the space created by the run of !cLean (I think it is) then there’s a simple pass on for Klose there as well - bringing those percentages back in our favour.

Rupp to his credit in the games I’ve seen of him does seem to drift into decent spaces quite often and i said after one of the recent games that he was the only one I clocked really doing it on a regular basis.

[king canary 7,580]

4 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

This is a drum I've been banging for a while now.

When we were performing well this year, people were citing Pep's City in that we played within ourselves and kept the ball before springing forward- I may be wrong but Guardiola says you need to make 20 passes to see the opposition start to lose concentration.

As the season has worn on we've gotten much more 'insistent', the players charge forwards like an u12 team and we try to get from defence to attack in 1 or 2 very risky passes through the midfield. I think this is borne of having a young, inexperienced side but also the increasing desperation of the situation.

It's naive on the players, also Farke- however, he has shown cognition of this even recently by going more solid with Rupp etc where there were some benefits. Emi and Todd are good but not quite good enough to play without support and make a difference; our defensive game isn't good enough to warrant 7 attack-minded players at this level.

I don't think you necessarily need to make a switch like Rupp for Buendia- but you absolutely to need to assist on more positional discipline,  particularly from players like McLean, Aarons and Lewis.

You're right we're not good enough to warrant 7 players on the attack but we're also not good enough to leave players like Cantwell and Buendia on the bench.

[king canary 7,580]

3 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Agree with all that.

I’d also add though that the movement in front isn’t great. I said above there’s a simple pass in to Lewis. But if Duda (I think it is - just to the left of the ref) is ten or fifteen yards yards close to Klose, moving into the space created by the run of !cLean (I think it is) then there’s a simple pass on for Klose there as well - bringing those percentages back in our favour.

Rupp to his credit in the games I’ve seen of him does seem to drift into decent spaces quite often and i said after one of the recent games that he was the only one I clocked really doing it on a regular basis.

This was what I thought Steipermann did well last season- you often saw him find pockets of space in between the lines, get the ball and either bring others into play or run at defenders and make them face their own goal. This season he's struggled to find that same space and isn't clever enough in his movement to make it.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

Agree.

 

[Mason 47 1,373]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think you necessarily need to make a switch like Rupp for Buendia- but you absolutely to need to assist on more positional discipline,  particularly from players like McLean, Aarons and Lewis.

You're right we're not good enough to warrant 7 players on the attack but we're also not good enough to leave players like Cantwell and Buendia on the bench.

Sure- I'm just saying it does show that Farke is trying at least to remedy this.

I understand we want to be this peppy attacking side, but in this league pretty much every team below the top few visibly prioritise getting 8-10 players back in a compact defensive unit when the ball is lost- this is what we're missing. We're like an underdog boxer, but we have a fundamental inability to guard- we might get a few shots in, but ultimately just get picked off by more patient opponents.

[Mason 47 1,373]

16 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Agree with all that.

I’d also add though that the movement in front isn’t great. I said above there’s a simple pass in to Lewis. But if Duda (I think it is - just to the left of the ref) is ten or fifteen yards yards close to Klose, moving into the space created by the run of !cLean (I think it is) then there’s a simple pass on for Klose there as well - bringing those percentages back in our favour.

Rupp to his credit in the games I’ve seen of him does seem to drift into decent spaces quite often and i said after one of the recent games that he was the only one I clocked really doing it on a regular basis.

Yes, this is definitely part of the problem. In our best performances we always seem to have a player dropping into a pocket of space, offering for a pass, keeping the tempo high. These days we are much more spread out, meaning the length of pass is a lot longer and so so easy to pick off with (ironically) average zonal marking.

Stiepermann is good in this way (but found it hard going at this level) but I also think Leitner was key in making this system work. He's like a deep-playing Hoolahan in that he followed the play and was always offering a short option to recycle quickly; the downside is, like all of our centre midfielders, this manner of play often left Tettey with too much to do.

When the length of pass gets longer, strength, speed and physicality become much more relevant and we cant compete with pretty much everyone at this level in that scenario. 

[Branston Pickle 3,638]

It’s what’s been happening all season, a wayward pass finding our fullbacks out of position and leaving us overloaded.  It’ll as often as not end in a goal being conceded at this level - it’s the difference between PL and Championship; we are sadly not as incisive.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Branston Pickle