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TeemuVanBasten

Need to completely overhaul the midfield

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Posted (edited)

I think Norwich fans need to be realistic about the quality of our squad at the moment, particularly the centre midfield.

Tom Trybull

Kenny McLean

Marco Stiepermann

Moritz Leitner

Lukas Rupp

Alex Tettey

There isn't a single player there who is Premier League standard, a few are probably average in the Championship, although Tettey has done a decent job of mixing it as much as his body will allow now and he definitely was Premier League standard when he was more mobile.

I think we need to be open minded when it comes to selling in the summer, losing Aarons or Cantwell at the right price isn't necessarily going to be a terrible thing if it means we can go back to the drawing board and buy ourselves a couple of quality centre mids. 

Farke was never going to keep us up in the best team in the league with a Championship midfield and there's no point in returning to this league unless we've first radically upgraded our midfield. 

Big transfer window needed.

Edited by TeemuVanBasten
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'Completely overhaul' is a bit of a stretch, but I agree with the general point.

I'm sure most will claim that all of those (bar Rupp, obviously) were important players before when we won the Championship so in theory they'll be able to replicate that, but football doesn't always work like that. You often see players look brilliant in a promotion season, suffer a serious loss of form and confidence during a tough relegation season and then they struggle to rediscover that form and confidence when they're back down in the Championship. Some recapture it, some don't. Also, players who have never competed in the Premier League before will be going hell for leather to get there, whereas those with battle scars from the division may just lose 5-10% of their hunger.

We also have a large pool of midfielders. In addition to those six there's also Vrancic plus a few loanees who'll come back, so we will need to trim two or three. I think Leitner has reached the end of the road, and probably one or two others on that list too.

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Tom Trybull > Decent enough at Champs level but shouldn't be first choice

Kenny McLean > See above

Marco Stiepermann > Confidence player, will not have the same impact next season. More creative options for behind the striker

Moritz Leitner > Should get a chance, probably won't under DF

Lukas Rupp > Will be fine at Champs level

Alex Tettey > Needs replacing

Mario Vrancic > 10 goals last Champs season, first choice starter.

The major glaring issue, as it has been for 3 years, is that we need a replacement for Tettey. We have enough creativity elsewhere at the front but the defensive screen in front of the back line is the major reason for us failing this season and was weak last Champs season as well.

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I agree the central midfield has been a problem all season.

However for next season I imagine Tettey, Rupp, Mclean and Vrancic would all be deemed good enough in central positions. We know some (all) won't be good enough for another Premier League season so I guess the question is can we find a player who is potentially good enough who needs a season in the championship or will we need to wait until we're (hopefully) promoted again where we can attract a better quality player?

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15 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Tom Trybull > Decent enough at Champs level but shouldn't be first choice

Kenny McLean > See above

Marco Stiepermann > Confidence player, will not have the same impact next season. More creative options for behind the striker

Moritz Leitner > Should get a chance, probably won't under DF

Lukas Rupp > Will be fine at Champs level

Alex Tettey > Needs replacing

Mario Vrancic > 10 goals last Champs season, first choice starter.

The major glaring issue, as it has been for 3 years, is that we need a replacement for Tettey. We have enough creativity elsewhere at the front but the defensive screen in front of the back line is the major reason for us failing this season and was weak last Champs season as well.

Agree with that analysis.

We need a dominant unit in there, we have lacked physicality and height in the middle of the park this season and that's hurt us as other teams have dominated and the list about have proven to be left wanting.

Guess that was why the loan guy (who left such a mark on me I can't even remember his name) was brought in but quickly we realised he wasn't it; or maybe not given a chance 🤷‍♂️

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Without reawakening the nightmare of the Roeder years he had when describing players as "Inbetweeners". Too good for the Champs, not good enough for the Prem. Pretty much all  of these fit into that category, and controversally I think that may apply to Buendia as well. Amadou was supposed to fill that gap and we know how that came off.

Two years on we can't really count on them having the same impact in the Champs next year so Champs level freshening is probably called for. Can't afford Prem level.

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12 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Agree with that analysis.

We need a dominant unit in there, we have lacked physicality and height in the middle of the park this season and that's hurt us as other teams have dominated and the list about have proven to be left wanting.

Guess that was why the loan guy (who left such a mark on me I can't even remember his name) was brought in but quickly we realised he wasn't it; or maybe not given a chance 🤷‍♂️

Amadou? Just mentioned him on the other Tettey thread

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1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think Norwich fans need to be realistic about the quality of our squad at the moment, particularly the centre midfield.

Tom Trybull

Kenny McLean

Marco Stiepermann

Moritz Leitner

Lukas Rupp

Alex Tettey

There isn't a single player there who is Premier League standard, a few are probably average in the Championship, although Tettey has done a decent job of mixing it as much as his body will allow now and he definitely was Premier League standard when he was more mobile.

I think we need to be open minded when it comes to selling in the summer, losing Aarons or Cantwell at the right price isn't necessarily going to be a terrible thing if it means we can go back to the drawing board and buy ourselves a couple of quality centre mids. 

Farke was never going to keep us up in the best team in the league with a Championship midfield and there's no point in returning to this league unless we've first radically upgraded our midfield. 

Big transfer window needed.

Why is Vrancic not on the list?

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12 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Without reawakening the nightmare of the Roeder years he had when describing players as "Inbetweeners". Too good for the Champs, not good enough for the Prem. Pretty much all  of these fit into that category, and controversally I think that may apply to Buendia as well. Amadou was supposed to fill that gap and we know how that came off.

Two years on we can't really count on them having the same impact in the Champs next year so Champs level freshening is probably called for. Can't afford Prem level.

Put Buendia in an attacking position and watch him flourish 

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44 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Without reawakening the nightmare of the Roeder years he had when describing players as "Inbetweeners". Too good for the Champs, not good enough for the Prem. Pretty much all  of these fit into that category, and controversally I think that may apply to Buendia as well. Amadou was supposed to fill that gap and we know how that came off.

Two years on we can't really count on them having the same impact in the Champs next year so Champs level freshening is probably called for. Can't afford Prem level.

Trybull, McLean and Steipermann are not 'too good for the Championship' I think they are just Championship level players.

Buendia I have no idea how you've concluded isn't good enough for the Premier League. He's a huge talent but when the defensive base is so weak, his flaws are exposed. 

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Vrancic and leitner are the best two passers,but do not hardly get any game time, As farke prefers players who can tackle and pass back and sideways all the time,very negative .

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2 minutes ago, Canary dwarf said:

Vrancic and leitner are the best two passers,but do not hardly get any game time, As farke prefers players who can tackle and pass back and sideways all the time,very negative .

Not sure this is really true.

Farke clearly loved Leitner- he's the best sideways and backwards passer in the squad- but he was exposed at this level and clearly fell out with the manager.

I am not totally sure why he seems so unwilling to play Vrancic though- second season in a row this has happened.

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For the life of me I cannot understand (Injuries permitting) why we have not played Godfrey in DCM, he is made for the role. As a centre half we have players who can do the same job as he can, at centre midfield, we do not. 

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

Not sure this is really true.

Farke clearly loved Leitner- he's the best sideways and backwards passer in the squad- but he was exposed at this level and clearly fell out with the manager.

I am not totally sure why he seems so unwilling to play Vrancic though- second season in a row this has happened.

I'm a big fan of Mario's  skillset, but anyone can see the poor chap runs like wooden top struggling through waist high treacle.  He has great touch, vision  , passing , shooting and set pieces, his tackling isn't bad either.  But when play is in negative transition ( as in we lose ball in their half and they go at us) he just cant get back.  Had Amadou  been a success , I think we would have seen more of Mario.  That's my appraisal  of the situation anyway  , FWIW.

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7 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

I'm a big fan of Mario's  skillset, but anyone can see the poor chap runs like wooden top struggling through waist high treacle.  He has great touch, vision  , passing , shooting and set pieces, his tackling isn't bad either.  But when play is in negative transition ( as in we lose ball in their half and they go at us) he just cant get back.  Had Amadou  been a success , I think we would have seen more of Mario.  That's my appraisal  of the situation anyway  , FWIW.

Is he not Mario-o to you?

But I largely agree- his mobility is an issue and it is shared throughout the midfield. I think the reason McLean gets so much game time is the fact he's much more able to cover ground than the others.

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14 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Without reawakening the nightmare of the Roeder years he had when describing players as "Inbetweeners". Too good for the Champs, not good enough for the Prem. Pretty much all  of these fit into that category, and controversally I think that may apply to Buendia as well. Amadou was supposed to fill that gap and we know how that came off.

Two years on we can't really count on them having the same impact in the Champs next year so Champs level freshening is probably called for. Can't afford Prem level.

Buendia and Norwich City are a different player / team if he is played behind Pukki and not required to cover opponents full backs.    In a different formation, Buendia's going to be a star.      The frustration he demonstrates has become understandable.

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Just now, king canary said:

Is he not Mario-o to you?

But I largely agree- his mobility is an issue and it is shared throughout the midfield. I think the reason McLean gets so much game time is the fact he's much more able to cover ground than the others.

Good point ref the o.😄. On lunch break so trying to be concise. Agree ref kenny too, who I think is not as bad as some make out.  But then I never coached pros, just County level schoolboys so my knowledge  of the game is more limited than those who read a lot about norwich.😉

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11 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Good point ref the o.😄. On lunch break so trying to be concise. Agree ref kenny too, who I think is not as bad as some make out.  But then I never coached pros, just County level schoolboys so my knowledge  of the game is more limited than those who read a lot about norwich.😉

Now he's not even Kenny-o! You clearly are in a hurry.

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17 minutes ago, king canary said:

Now he's not even Kenny-o! You clearly are in a hurry.

👍

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1 hour ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Agree with that analysis.

We need a dominant unit in there, we have lacked physicality and height in the middle of the park this season and that's hurt us as other teams have dominated and the list about have proven to be left wanting.

Guess that was why the loan guy (who left such a mark on me I can't even remember his name) was brought in but quickly we realised he wasn't it; or maybe not given a chance 🤷‍♂️

When defence returns to full strength try Godfrey in front, and allow forward runs into opposition area. Big guy at far post for crosses or strikes from outside area. Imposing threat with pace to cover or strike as well as feeding forward players.

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Anyone know what Vrancic's contract position is? I can't remember if he was offered or signed a new contract.

The reason I ask is he hasn't really been in Farke's plans this season and just wondering if he may be a shock exit.

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4 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Anyone know what Vrancic's contract position is? I can't remember if he was offered or signed a new contract.

The reason I ask is he hasn't really been in Farke's plans this season and just wondering if he may be a shock exit.

Someone posted them all the other day, sure its 1yr left from memory.

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A key thing I haven't seen many other people mention is the lack of PL experience in our midfield, and squad as a whole. I think it's made a huge difference.

Without checking exactly, I imagine that the majority of our starting XI this year have only had Tettey with any Prem experience. You can coach the players as much as you can but there's a certain level of autonomy once on the pitch- when and how to press, holding the defensive lines etc. 

Without experienced leaders at this level we were always likely to get picked off. Godfreys defensive positioning is poor at the best of times and he's been the de facto leader of the defence for most of the season. Tettey tries bless him but most of the time our midfield has looked like a creche and Teemu since December is a great mystery, he looks bust.

Obviously the defensive injuries have massively compromised the spine of the team this year, but I think if we bounce back quickly you'll see DF + Webber target a few more seasoned PL campaigners as a priority.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Someone posted them all the other day, sure its 1yr left from memory.

Yep, 1 year left

image.png.3dcf13325d505042a829e0c62a31245b.png

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Vrancic's non selection is a mystery. He isn't the magic answer to our season but to not be given the nod to start games or even decent game time ahead of Trybull,Duda,Rupp or McClean for some games is strange.

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

Buendia I have no idea how you've concluded isn't good enough for the Premier League. He's a huge talent but when the defensive base is so weak, his flaws are exposed. 

I think you've answered you own question there 😉 kc

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32 minutes ago, shaunieboy77 said:

Vrancic's non selection is a mystery. He isn't the magic answer to our season but to not be given the nod to start games or even decent game time ahead of Trybull,Duda,Rupp or McClean for some games is strange.

He might not be the magic answer but he can create chances for players,just needs someone strong alongside him. 

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Posted (edited)

This has been our issue all season, yes injuries to our defence hasn’t helped but our utterly weak midfield has been an issue and one Farke has tried to sort out with Amadou and Rupp, both no improvement on what we have.

If we can get a solid base then we’d see the City of last season. The problem comes when Amadou came with a 9 million pound price tag, Duda 25 million, if that’s all you get for that value I’m not surprised Farke and Webber have gone to youth to try and build for the future.

Edited by Indy
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2 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Buendia and Norwich City are a different player / team if he is played behind Pukki and not required to cover opponents full backs.    In a different formation, Buendia's going to be a star.      The frustration he demonstrates has become understandable.

That's the point, Prem players can usually do most things that he can do AND all the hard work covering.

Get to the end of the season and we will see. If he goes, there is a manager who agrees with you. If he stays there are 20 Prem managers who don't think he is better than they have already. Can't see him playing Champions League, can you?

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