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Prestonlad

Preston fan in peace

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First of all, I’m sorry to see you are down at the bottom of the EPL. I like Norwich as a club and you have a great traditional stadium. 
 

Now then, Alex Neil. 
 

We seem to be seeing a familiar thing happening to us as to what happened with his time with Norwich. 
 

It started off great for him, but now 3 seasons of ups and downs with massive injury crises in each of these seasons has brought me to this forum. 
 

You may think that little old Preston have been punching above their weight, but fans are becoming increasingly frustrated with Alex Neils approach to matches and constant stubbornness. We were top of the championship in November, and now we’ve seen a steady decline in winning results ever since now having the worse form this year in the championship. 
 

We are finding that not only does he seem to have no plan B, he leaves it far to late to make subs. The timings and personnel of the substitutions have been odd to say the least. Most of the time when drawing and the game is there for the taking, it will take for us to go 1-0 before he makes a substitution, even if that’s in the 80th minute. Or on the other hand, if we are winning by a tight margin he seems to make a defensive substitution not long into the second half which has most often resulted in us conceding late on as we haven’t been able to kill the game off. 
 

We are also finding that he has been holding back younger players back who have excellent potential like Josh Harrop and Tom Bayliss, both cost the club a decent whack of money to sign (certainly the latter). 
 

I can speak for most fans here when I say I’m becoming quite peed off with Negative Neils tactics, his constant sulkiness and stubbornness. He never sticks with the same team often making 3-5 changes to the starting 11 each game. Enough may be enough.
 

Since football resumed, we drew 1-1 away at bottom of the league Luton, and we have lost 2 home games since. The tactics have been terrible and has left me wondering what must they be doing in training. Let’s not forget this dire run of results started way before lockdown. You wouldn’t think we were in and around fighting for a play off spot! 
 

I would like to know your thoughts on your ex manager Alex Neil, so I can see if this is a becoming a trend with Neils management. 
 

Thank You.

Edited by Prestonlad

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He was definitely a stubborn manager from what I remember and not one for bringing youth prospects really, James Maddison being a great example of this! He was arguably also behind some poor signings that hurt us financially, like Steven Naismith and Kyle Lafferty.

He's definitely not the worst manager around though, from an outsiders perspective he seems to be overachieving at Preston by working with a smaller budget than most top half championship clubs. There's an interesting interview with former player Gary O'Neill who rated Alex Neil as one of the best tactical managers he's ever worked with. 

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Tactically, I think he's probably one of the better managers we've had in recent times and I certainly don't think he's done a bad job at Preston given the limited budget compared to rivals. He was a bit of a victim of his own success here, but yes there are some apparent trends you've picked up. His immediate impact on working with the tools he was already provided with was great and we played some great attacking football, but his record of signings and squad development was fairly poor.

His reluctance to try youth was a bit baffling, when here we are a few years later having sold Maddison and the two Murphy's for mega millions and have a squad full of successful academy products. You can argue Maddison being sent out on loan may have improved his development in some way but he came straight into the squad after Neil's departure and was an instant match winner game after game and ended up virtually having a team built around him. Instead he wasted money on journeyman players who made little or no impact on the long run as alluded to by the previous poster.

I watched your Match against Cardiff and you were simply out fought in the end, but it was definitely a winnable game. 

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3 hours ago, ELYOUKAYEE said:

He was definitely a stubborn manager from what I remember and not one for bringing youth prospects really, James Maddison being a great example of this! He was arguably also behind some poor signings that hurt us financially, like Steven Naismith and Kyle Lafferty.

He's definitely not the worst manager around though, from an outsiders perspective he seems to be overachieving at Preston by working with a smaller budget than most top half championship clubs. There's an interesting interview with former player Gary O'Neill who rated Alex Neil as one of the best tactical managers he's ever worked with. 

He didn’t sign Lafferty. Neil Adams did in the summer of 2014.

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Neil is an impact manager. His methods work for a short time then players get fed up with it. 

Sending James Maddison out on loan was a huge mistake but he just didn't like his attitude. Most managers would have put up with his attitude and taken the three points every Saturday. 

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7 hours ago, Prestonlad said:

First of all, I’m sorry to see you are down at the bottom of the EPL. I like Norwich as a club and you have a great traditional stadium. 
 

Now then, Alex Neil. 
 

We seem to be seeing a familiar thing happening to us as to what happened with his time with Norwich. 
 

It started off great for him, but now 3 seasons of ups and downs with massive injury crises in each of these seasons has brought me to this forum. 
 

You may think that little old Preston have been punching above their weight, but fans are becoming increasingly frustrated with Alex Neils approach to matches and constant stubbornness. We were top of the championship in November, and now we’ve seen a steady decline in winning results ever since now having the worse form this year in the championship. 
 

We are finding that not only does he seem to have no plan B, he leaves it far to late to make subs. The timings and personnel of the substitutions have been odd to say the least. Most of the time when drawing and the game is there for the taking, it will take for us to go 1-0 before he makes a substitution, even if that’s in the 80th minute. Or on the other hand, if we are winning by a tight margin he seems to make a defensive substitution not long into the second half which has most often resulted in us conceding late on as we haven’t been able to kill the game off. 
 

We are also finding that he has been holding back younger players back who have excellent potential like Josh Harrop and Tom Bayliss, both cost the club a decent whack of money to sign (certainly the latter). 
 

I can speak for most fans here when I say I’m becoming quite peed off with Negative Neils tactics, his constant sulkiness and stubbornness. He never sticks with the same team often making 3-5 changes to the starting 11 each game. Enough may be enough.
 

Since football resumed, we drew 1-1 away at bottom of the league Luton, and we have lost 2 home games since. The tactics have been terrible and has left me wondering what must they be doing in training. Let’s not forget this dire run of results started way before lockdown. You wouldn’t think we were in and around fighting for a play off spot! 
 

I would like to know your thoughts on your ex manager Alex Neil, so I can see if this is a becoming a trend with Neils management. 
 

Thank You.

Wasn’t as good as he thought he was. Inherited a really good championship team. Took credit for mike phelans team winning 2-1 at Bournemouth, which annoyed me. But couldn’t complain about how he got us up after that, the players were going right until the end. 
 

you’re right about team selections, Grabban couldn’t get a game, but misfiring Jerome was keeping his place. He was sold and then the bloke who threatened to beat Neil up (Naismith) was brought in. We were winning against Liverpool and needed another defensive reinforcement bringing on. He was reluctant to bring the new signing Klose on, because he hadn’t played prem before! The rest of that game was history. The last straw was the 3-0 defeat against Sunderland. Pathetic performance and after that, he seemed to have lost the dressing room.

 

we went down and he loved signing CAM players, I remember Naismith playing up front against Birmingham once! (We lost 3-0). Maddison never got a single game under him and as soon as he left, Irvine looked a better manager.

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Shame to hear he's losing support at PNE as it seemed from the outside that he'd learnt some lessons from how things ended here.

In my mind his main failure here was in the transfer market- he made some baffling signings (I think he signed 3 separate players who all wanted to play as an attacking midfielder despite already having Hoolahan) and also came across as being very thin skinned for a supposed hard nut.

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Yep, made some very strange calls in his time here. The whole "Tettey's knees cannot take playing two games in a week", yet here we are and those same knees are three years older and they're almost playing three games a week.

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I think he was good manager, but as said before, I victim of his own success with us. Having said that by the time we were relegated (which again we could argue was lack of and poor recruitment) and we went back into the champs, the squad did need an overhaul. I suppose we could also be lenient and by that stage say he was still an inexperienced manager. 

 

Would have to agree that there didn't seem much of a plan b and after we lost the Newcastle game I think AN lost his confidence in his methods a bit. I agree as well subs seem like they took forever, but so does DF. Maybe we as a fan group got used to PL being ready to throw caution to the wind and Chuck subs on?

 

I'd say better the devil you know, he has spent nothing really at pne and has you safe and competitive. Recruitment seems to have been decent as well for not alot of outlay, so if you compare where you are with what you spent I'd say it's a win win. Also If you sacked him, who else would you get in who will do as good a job? Part of that question I suppose is asking, where do you think you should be in this tough league? Top 2? Do you think undoubtedly you are top 6?

 

Btw, is Frankie BBC McAvoy still with AN?

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Looks like he may be a good short term manager, to revitalise a club, but who then maybe loses his way.  It's like he has learned how to get so far and then can't take it to the next level for whatever reason - someone who can see the problems and knows how to improve and gets that improvement, but can't develop it on from there.

Imo he needs to feel he is in total control - and he gets that when he first goes to a club - but that starts to go the longer he is there.  That he was so loved at Hamilton for so long is probably because he could be that figure in total control and was like a father figure to his players - at bigger clubs, after that intial success, he starts to run into problems with the bigger personalities - like his solution to Maddison was to send him away on loan, when he was probably ready to at least get some starts in the first team.

Good man, likeable, but maybe not the solution long term for a club and may be suited to a lower league where he can have the control he needs, if he wants to stay at a club for longer.

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The Norwich job came a bit too early for him.

I'll always remember his preparation for the play off final was exceptional. Karanka at Middlesboro looked really worried, and Neil and the Norwich squad were very relaxed. The very best managers are able to get their players to perform on the big stage, to enjoy the occasion and not get frozen by fear.

Shocking in the transfer market though, and a horribly over-inflated opinion of Scottish players. Aside from Naismith, if we hadn't been gazumped by Villa, he'd have spent £12m on Ross McCormack!

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I also urge you to read the Norwich City reddit thread I made on Alex Neil. He's been undercut but still naive with his team selections.

Tom Bayliss and James Maddison are incredibly similar, down to the clubs they signed from!

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Alex Neil is the definition of a 'head coach' who needs to work with a strong sporting director.

Give him a squad and he's pretty good at getting the best out of them. Give him a cheque book and the freedom to develop & improve his approach- tends to get lost.

Not sure as a character he would want to loose his control like that though.

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When he took us up, we started the season reasonably well for a newly promoted team. We went to Newcastle and played our part in an entertaining game that could have been any score and any result. But they put six past us even though we scored twice. By attacking, the previous two games Liverpool and West Ham away had produced draws.

From that game on, Neil went into his shell and tried to stop the opposition rather than let them worry about us. And that was his downfall. His tactics, which had been refreshing the previous season, became dull and boring and the crowd turned on him somewhat and we went down.

I liked him as a personality and he seemed so keen but as with many managers, once you lose belief in what made you successful, you are heading for trouble.

And either he or who was advising him, was terrible in the marketplace. 

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The only thing I thought he really struggled with was recruitment. He was, perhaps alongside McNally, pretty determined to sign Naismith and pursued him for a while until we eventually got him.

The complaints you have, though, are just general complaints that exist whenever a team is underperforming.

The substitution thing is always levelled at managers when things arent going well - for example it's a current thing being identified by people on here of our own Head Coach, yet it's no different to last season, where those complaints didn't exist.

Most Norwich fans would tell you that Lambert's substitutions were fantastic - but ask an Ipswich fan now and they'll tell you he makes too many too early and upsets rhythm.

 

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For me he was a manager I will remember fondly for two reasons. He came in from the start and galvanised a decent team to a glorious Wembley final. Secondly, he was straightforward in how he talked and appeared honest. This made a refreshing difference to some of the idiocy you get with some managerspeak, full of cliché. He was loved by the board and it was reciprocal. Years later you read snippets about his gratitude which feels genuine. So, as a person, he is authentic in my opinion (always a good trait). If the team lost, more often than not, he accepted it wasn't good enough.

When he left, I felt we needed a refresh because mainly I wasn't quite sure what his plan was anymore. Was he for all for the swashbuckling type of attack that served him so well in his early days. The incredible loss at Newcastle (after we were 3-1 up) changed him, it was the pivotal moment. His outlook became less 'Neil' and he became more ponderous in his team formations and set ups. It wasn't clear what our identity was as much. Still, he never transcended into Hughton's 'defence first' strategy. The football was rarely boring I would say. Just wasn't a winning formula. I'm guessing that is where you are with Preston?

His time in the transfer market was not convincing on the whole. Yet, he was somewhat of a novice in that respect. The Maddison story is well discussed above. Same with Declan. He made a few errors but then he never got a look in and went in loan, only for Neil to follow him. If I recall correctly, it took a little while for Rudd to establish himself as number 1. But Preston fans like him a lot (as I did). I think that does indicate a stubborn streak.

Always have a soft spot for Preston. Would be great to see them in the PL. Under Alex Neil? Maybe. I do wonder if you have to ask that old question, be careful what you wish for. If I was the Preston board I might give him one more season (with the proviso of a plan of course). How the pandemic changes things next year I'm not sure. Is it time for change? Again I reckon not. Is he a manager who makes you competitive? Probably, yes. Only 3 go up out of 24 each year. The odds are a challenge. You've not had to truly tackle a relegation threatening season have you?

Not sure if you've got a good youth set up? Lots of things I don't know. 

Finally, subs! Tell me one set of fans who doesn't complain about when to bring them on when things are not going for you. When the results arrive, fans don't complain. Imagine how us Norwich fans think this year! We brought 3 on at half time (unheard of). 

Best of luck for the rest of your season. Fingers crossed you can force into the top 6 but there are strong competitors for those spots aren't there. 

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37 minutes ago, Icecream Snow said:

I'll always remember his preparation for the play off final was exceptional. Karanka at Middlesboro looked really worried, and Neil and the Norwich squad were very relaxed. The very best managers are able to get their players to perform on the big stage, to enjoy the occasion and not get frozen by fear.

 

Totally agree.  As part of their preparation he took them to Wembley for a tour of the stadium, and they certainly weren't overawed on the day.  Boro were favourites which can work either way, but they blew it.  We were two up and in control after half an hour, and never let it slip (something that Norwich teams have a bit of a reputation for).  May prove to be Neil's finest hour.

 

 

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Never a fan and as said he inherited a very good side, got us up then absolutely ruined us, turned us into a ****e team with massive wage bill on older ****e players with long contracts.

Not very good, hopefully you’ll get shot soon and bring in a manager with more about him. Good luck.👍

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I remember our old manager, Dave Stringer, leaving because he was "past his sell by date" and felt he was unable to motivate the players. 

I think this is the case for Alex Neil - a short lifespan as a manager and perhaps can over-estimate his ability as a motivator. 

What I didn't like was his treatment of Declan Rudd, gave him a few games in the Prem and he did well to start, made a couple of mistakes (which any keeper can do!) and was not given another chance, replaced in the squad by McGovern. 

Perhaps it was planned. 

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18 minutes ago, curious yellow said:

What I didn't like was his treatment of Declan Rudd, gave him a few games in the Prem and he did well to start, made a couple of mistakes (which any keeper can do!) and was not given another chance, replaced in the squad by McGovern. 

Funny how memory works- I've got zero recollection of Rudd playing that season but went to Wikipedia and he started 13 games!

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

Funny how memory works- I've got zero recollection of Rudd playing that season but went to Wikipedia and he started 13 games!

I think he played in the win at Man U. 

We looked in a safe position at that time. 

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Agree that Rudd got rough treatment by Alex Neil. Very young keeper at the time. Think he has gone on to prove himself after.

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10 minutes ago, king canary said:

Funny how memory works- I've got zero recollection of Rudd playing that season but went to Wikipedia and he started 13 games!

Basically Ruddy was out of form, not playing his best. Rudd came in, wasn't good enough, went back to Ruddy, who didn't really recapture his form. 

It sticks in my memory because the bloke that sits a little across from me hated on Ruddy for being 'grumpy and miserable' all the time. By that, he meant that Ruddy liked to focus on the game rather than turn around and wave at him when he shouted his name. When Rudd came into the team he went and bought that pink shirt and had Rudd put on the back. And as you say, it didn't get too many showings as we soon went back to Ruddy

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52 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The complaints you have, though, are just general complaints that exist whenever a team is underperforming.

This. 

There are also a few in here saying that he may be a coach who has an instant impact and then goes off the boil, but you can say that about any coach who starts a job well. No coach maintains a consistently high level for years on end without having dips in form where the fans start getting on his back and questioning him.

All coaches, whether it be Neil, Farke or whoever else will have good runs where everything they touch turns to gold and bad runs when they can't do anything right. Just like teams and players.

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10 minutes ago, curious yellow said:

I think he played in the win at Man U. 

We looked in a safe position at that time. 

If memory serves me right... Didn't he  end up being touted as the next de gea ?

 

LDC - kidding 😉

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10 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

This. 

There are also a few in here saying that he may be a coach who has an instant impact and then goes off the boil, but you can say that about any coach who starts a job well. No coach maintains a consistently high level for years on end without having dips in form where the fans start getting on his back and questioning him.

All coaches, whether it be Neil, Farke or whoever else will have good runs where everything they touch turns to gold and bad runs when they can't do anything right. Just like teams and players.

That is true but what separates the good from the bad is how you get your team out of those slumps.

Neil struggled with this- we started the season after we got relegated on fire but when that momentum faded there just wasn't any plan to get us back to wining ways. It felt as it went on he was just chucking stuff against the wall to see what stuck.

Under Farke last season we had a little run over Christmas with one win in 6 but Farke nipped it in the bud and we then won 10 ofo ur next 11. Obviously the bad run this season is much bigger but if Farke wants to show himself to be a top coach, he has to show he can restore the players confidence- ideally before this season is over.

 

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For the reasons set out above I always remember AN fondly. 

I always thought his weakness was in 'arresting a slide', he didn't know how to pick the players back up and build again. His route seemed to be to keep throwing different players into the mix to see if that changed things enough without trying to build confidence by being solid again. 

I would echo what others have said though, be careful what you wish for. Who would you look to replace him with who is a realistic target who could get more out of the group at this point. It seems he needs to get to the year end and then start again building from there with an idea of who the starting 11 should be.

Although, as said above, he does need some guidance in the transfer market. Football is moving towards a head coach set up and this would probably help him. 

All in he is an honest guy who speaks well and honestly. He isn't the best manager around but he does a good job in the Championship and, with the right club structure, should continue to develop his skills.

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16 hours ago, Prestonlad said:

First of all, I’m sorry to see you are down at the bottom of the EPL. I like Norwich as a club and you have a great traditional stadium. 
 

Now then, Alex Neil. 
 

We seem to be seeing a familiar thing happening to us as to what happened with his time with Norwich. 
 

It started off great for him, but now 3 seasons of ups and downs with massive injury crises in each of these seasons has brought me to this forum. 
 

You may think that little old Preston have been punching above their weight, but fans are becoming increasingly frustrated with Alex Neils approach to matches and constant stubbornness. We were top of the championship in November, and now we’ve seen a steady decline in winning results ever since now having the worse form this year in the championship. 
 

We are finding that not only does he seem to have no plan B, he leaves it far to late to make subs. The timings and personnel of the substitutions have been odd to say the least. Most of the time when drawing and the game is there for the taking, it will take for us to go 1-0 before he makes a substitution, even if that’s in the 80th minute. Or on the other hand, if we are winning by a tight margin he seems to make a defensive substitution not long into the second half which has most often resulted in us conceding late on as we haven’t been able to kill the game off. 
 

We are also finding that he has been holding back younger players back who have excellent potential like Josh Harrop and Tom Bayliss, both cost the club a decent whack of money to sign (certainly the latter). 
 

I can speak for most fans here when I say I’m becoming quite peed off with Negative Neils tactics, his constant sulkiness and stubbornness. He never sticks with the same team often making 3-5 changes to the starting 11 each game. Enough may be enough.
 

Since football resumed, we drew 1-1 away at bottom of the league Luton, and we have lost 2 home games since. The tactics have been terrible and has left me wondering what must they be doing in training. Let’s not forget this dire run of results started way before lockdown. You wouldn’t think we were in and around fighting for a play off spot! 
 

I would like to know your thoughts on your ex manager Alex Neil, so I can see if this is a becoming a trend with Neils management. 
 

Thank You.

As has been said before, hes definitely stubborn, although to be fair the biggest criticism of him in the prem was that he changed his approach after a defeat to Newcastle 

I have always thought hes an impact manager, he takes no prisoners,honest to a fault and says what he thinks which is fine for a while but soon respect and fear that inspired players, goes as they get used to him.

Never rated his recruitment ,and is reluctant to give youth a chance, relying too much on experience.

But having said that, Preston seems a hard job, doesnt have the money of other clubs but still competes well.  Always like Preston for the history, first double etc.. I think top 10,challenging for top 6 is as good as you can hope for

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21 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

This. 

There are also a few in here saying that he may be a coach who has an instant impact and then goes off the boil, but you can say that about any coach who starts a job well. No coach maintains a consistently high level for years on end without having dips in form where the fans start getting on his back and questioning him.

All coaches, whether it be Neil, Farke or whoever else will have good runs where everything they touch turns to gold and bad runs when they can't do anything right. Just like teams and players.

I recently read (ok, have part-read) a fascinating book called Thinking Fast and Slow about human decision making. One idea it discussed is “reversion to the mean”, where something exhibits outstanding results, whether a football team, share prices, sales results or whatever, and we are programmed to over-weight that in our evaluation. Statistically most things revert back to average performance, football managers included. A good run doesn’t make them a genius, it’s just that, a good run, but probably not an indicator of future above average performance. 

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Just now, Nuff Said said:

I recently read (ok, have part-read) a fascinating book called Thinking Fast and Slow about human decision making. One idea it discussed is “reversion to the mean”, where something exhibits outstanding results, whether a football team, share prices, sales results or whatever, and we are programmed to over-weight that in our evaluation. Statistically most things revert back to average performance, football managers included. A good run doesn’t make them a genius, it’s just that, a good run, but probably not an indicator of future above average performance. 

I feel like Hughton was a great example of that here. We had that amazing unbeaten run in the first season but as time went on that appeared more and more like a burst of overachievement but we kept hanging on in the hope he could rediscover that.

 

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