Sack Farke Now?

[Upo 91]

Frankly, if I hadn't seen a team today that makes a serious effort and if I hadn't seen Farke exploring options here open mindedly without being reckless, I would probably not feel too bad about letting him go. But a team that stands up so soon after being humiliated thoroughly is a team that is being led.

It's not his tactics or strategies I've been worried about. It's the apathetic leadership and signs of what looks like passive-aggressive self defeatistic atmosphere permeating the team. In some way him defending against challenges furiously, and showing emotion is a good thing. Sometimes you just need to rise up to defend against criticism, even if its justified.

There are situations where "F*** ***" beats "I'm sorry". Being apologetic and humble can become a bridge to self-defeatism and humility a crutch to lower expectations. Those bridges sometimes have to be burned down. It leaves no other option but try your damn hardest knowing you can still fail and be driven out of town. What you win is the best chance you and your team have to succeed.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Just now, hogesar said:

Im rarely named alongside Parma. This is a nice PinkUn first.

You gonna respond to all the questions and points you ignored throughout the week or only come on here after a loss?

I have literally no idea what you are talking about. 

I remember laughing at you for your passionate defence of Drmic and his talent, what else was there? 

Drmic is dogsh*t mate, looking forward to the penny dropping for you. 

 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

42 minutes ago, Clint said:

I really don’t see the benefit in persisting. It’s the same mistakes tonight that’s we’re happening three years ago in the championship....

Zonal marking, which is particularly hopeless in a struggling side as no one wants to take responsibility for anything.

Conceding goals either shortly before or shortly after half time. Down to a lack of focus.

Lack of in-game management. We all know the deal with this so I won’t go into it. I do find the approach of doing nothing until we’re losing and then bring on every attacking player you have with 20 mins left particularly annoying. It’s not championship manager. 

The appalling set-pieces from us. How often have we scored, minus Vrancic, who sits on the bench every match.

Its just so many of the same problems. I don’t see what the point in giving him next season would do as he’s clearly so far out of his depth at this level it’s unbelievable. 

Keane has just said that they changed tactics at half time, just as Southampton did Friday night. What do we honestly hope to achieve with Farke in charge? 

Farke isn't the problem. 

The entire footballing structure is the problem. The one which gives 3/4 year contracts to Drmic and Rupp. 

[nutty nigel 7,531]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

In all honesty I don't really- I wasn't there much last season or the season before.

I remember finding his style of football tedious for most of the first season.

I remember the same under most managers though- players who turned backwards or passed back to keep possession instead of attacking got the whole 'why is he going fooking backwards? GET IT FUUURWAAARRD.' Farke just dials that up to 11 sometimes.

 

The Preston game, which we won, was a case in point.

Watching games on tv with no atmosphere makes this worse. It's frustrating whoever it is. Even if teams get it forward the atmosphere is flat. I did wonder about getting a crossword book for these games..

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

33 minutes ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

No, stick with the project.

Pep wouldn't have a Championship side any higher than 20th.

Farke knows how to win the Championship title. Let him and Webber continue to grow the club from the roots and eventually we might get there and stick there.

He do you do that when your model means you have to sell your best players ever year and keep looking for bargains? Just stay in the championship were Delia's ambitions are... No point in the misery that is NCFC in the top flight under the current owners. 

[Duncan Edwards 2,231]

40 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Genuinely hope we are never promoted again whilst the management and owner structure is as is....would rather just stay in the Championship.

You’re in League One

[lake district canary 4,531]

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Embarrassing. 

Not Farke. Not our performance.

Some of our fans, though.

This. Is it just part of the culture that people always have to have someone to blame for everything?   Yes, we are not doing well, but people surely have to see the bigger picture?   The development of young players (and the evidence that Farke makes it work as in last season) not least in the added value he has added to a squad that cost just about zilch to put together.

So we're all unhappy we lost again tonight, but it's not just about Farke, it's not just about being in the PL even, it's not even about the owners (although there will be at least one thread saying so tonight) - it's about TRYING to understand the whole project.

I'm not going to explain it again, because some people plainly do not want to see it, because if they haven't got it by now, then there isn't much hope that they ever will, suffice to say we will improve, whether its this season or next.

Physically we matched Everton tonight - much better than we did against Southampton, so in some ways it was working. How Duda was quite so bad at set pieces is mystifying, he is better than that, but his selection was probaby justified for his sheer physical presence, which was effective at least some of the time - it's just that his set pieces weere cr*p.  We also finished the match well, starting to look like we know we can. 

Awful to watch when you lose again in such a flat atmosphere, but surely we are bigger than "sack the manager"?  It just seems bizzarre that anyone that knows the club and has been following events over the last three years would even think of sacking him. Bottom of the PL yes, but then that is our predicted place, given our resources.

I believed we could do a lot better - and with a little luck with injuries, we might have done - but we are where we are for a reason and it is not because we have Daniel Farke as manager.

 

[king canary 7,604]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

The Preston game, which we won, was a case in point.

Watching games on tv with no atmosphere makes this worse. It's frustrating whoever it is. Even if teams get it forward the atmosphere is flat. I did wonder about getting a crossword book for these games..

We were crap against Preston to be fair- was one of our worst performances yet we got the win. At least the ex manager we faced that week didn't lose his mind.

[king canary 7,604]

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

but then that is our predicted place, given our resources.

I mean, it wasn't the place you predicted...

[Cantiaci Canary 557]

12 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Stop deluding yourself about this imaginary project dreamt up by Hogesar and Parma. 

What sort of special project which sees us try and sign Jordan Rhodes permanently 9 months ago, give Grant Hanley a 4.5 year deal and sign Rupp on a 3 year deal in January isn't any different to any other standard 'project'. 

We aren't the next Ajax. We're just a normal Championship club. 

Dreamed up by .... actually our Sporting Director if you listen to him.

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I mean, it wasn't the place you predicted...

I believed we could do a job and with better circumstances this season, we might have done.

[Clint 221]

Again some good points but setting your team up to defend properly or look remotely attacking from set pieces is basic. We never look either.

I’ve not checked the stats but I suspect that there is no other team in any English league that has failed to win a single league point when behind this season? Even if that has come about by bringing on the big man and lumping it up to him. We have not a single point from going behind. We couldn’t even scrape a draw against Crawley in the cup.
Is this not down to Farke at some level then? 

[nutty nigel 7,531]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

We were crap against Preston to be fair- was one of our worst performances yet we got the win. At least the ex manager we faced that week didn't lose his mind.

It was a championship game. There were more like that throughout the season. Just think back....

[curious yellow 184]

Completely agree with Farke's tactics, hold them till the last part of the game, bring on some strikers and win it. 

We needed fresh players after Friday, we needed to try something different. 

Farke had an impossible job from the start and things have got more difficult. 

[SplatCat 18]

This is absurd. 

If you want to be negative, we looked lethargic, leaderless, slow, hesitant, poor at set pieces, lightweight, etc. The bbc commentary loved pointing this out, as any child could.

The flip side of the coin is that Everton have spent vastly more money than us, yet today could have easily been a draw. We hardly had any chances, but they hardly had any either.  That is not a disastrous performance.

As have Southampton spent way more than us, as have practically every premier league side. Out of nowhere we got promoted last year, with a vast number of youth players and an inexperienced manager. This is still true no matter how boring it may be. 

[Cantiaci Canary 557]

6 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

He do you do that when your model means you have to sell your best players ever year and keep looking for bargains? Just stay in the championship were Delia's ambitions are... No point in the misery that is NCFC in the top flight under the current owners. 

You sell high and buy low to start with but then sell high and buy higher than before next time.

It was never about this season. If we had finished 7th in 2019 and then 6th in 2020 few would be questioning Farke.

We are getting burned because we're investing in the roots.

You won't see the benefits until a few years time. 

I get it ... being a football supporter is about watching for 90mins once a week and wanting to see a victory BUT we've been going up and down and not sticking for yonks. It doesn't work. We're on a mission here to grow slowly and end up in a far stronger place than yo yoing provides.

Alternatively we could sell ourselves to a Chinese comglomerate and hope that we mirror Wolves but that's another debate.

[king canary 7,604]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

It was a championship game. There were more like that throughout the season. Just think back....

There were a few at the start of that season no doubt.

The thing is you can play badly and win or play well and lose on occasion. What you can't do is play badly and keep winning or vice versa. At some point if you keeping you have to accept your playing badly.

[king canary 7,604]

6 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I believed we could do a job and with better circumstances this season, we might have done.

Still don't think we'd have finished 4th.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Just now, king canary said:

There were a few at the start of that season no doubt.

The thing is you can play badly and win or play well and lose on occasion. What you can't do is play badly and keep winning or vice versa. At some point if you keeping you have to accept your playing badly.

What about Millwall, Nottingham Forest and games like that? They were much the same and only memorable for their exciting endings.

[king canary 7,604]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

What about Millwall, Nottingham Forest and games like that? They were much the same and only memorable for their exciting endings.

As I said, I wasn't there so couldn't tell you.

As far as I remember we were actually pretty decent against Millwall just shocking defensively. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

7 minutes ago, SplatCat said:

This is absurd. 

If you want to be negative, we looked lethargic, leaderless, slow, hesitant, poor at set pieces, lightweight, etc. The bbc commentary loved pointing this out, as any child could.

The flip side of the coin is that Everton have spent vastly more money than us, yet today could have easily been a draw. We hardly had any chances, but they hardly had any either.  That is not a disastrous performance.

As have Southampton spent way more than us, as have practically every premier league side. Out of nowhere we got promoted last year, with a vast number of youth players and an inexperienced manager. This is still true no matter how boring it may be. 

Yep. Largely agree with this. Good post.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

Farke has had a terrible week and a poor season but he’s a good coach who will learn and should not once again be the fall guy for our not fit for purpose owners who seem to survive anything with their reputation unscathed. We will not succeed at this level whilst they own the club. 

[Tumbleweed 106]

Frankly I can't be bothered with more "rebuilding". Farke seems likeable, humble, not afraid to play the youngsters and generated probably the best bond I have ever seen throughout the club last season. I really like what he is trying to achieve. Tonight he changed things and with the exception maybe of Buendia for Duda we looked ok against a team costing millions with one of the best managers in the world. I don't think there was that much between the sides, uike the Soton debacle. Krul was not much busier than Pickford.

I agree absolutely he has made mistakes but given the choice betwen sticking with it and trusting Farke and Webber to learn from this season, or rip it up and start again, I plump for the former.

[Clint 221]

So if we’re using last season as the benchmark, we did unbelievably well to get promoted. But, we didn’t play well as regularly as people may think.

A lot of the time we were trailing and scored equalisers/winners late on purely down to throwing everything at the opposition. 

That doesn’t work at this level. If you’re losing in the championship and have Rhodes on the bench, you bring him on, get him involved and you’ve got half a chance. 
It doesn’t work at this level and that’s basically what Farke has resorted to all season but without having Rhodes! It’s not particularly clever, he just had better attacking players at his disposal than the opposition last season.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

As I said, I wasn't there so couldn't tell you.

As far as I remember we were actually pretty decent against Millwall just shocking defensively. 

We were quite decent against Preston. The difference was the amount of frustration in the stadium. That does make things edgy. 

[king canary 7,604]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

We were quite decent against Preston. The difference was the amount of frustration in the stadium. That does make things edgy. 

Agree to disagree on that one. Thought we were very poor in general v Preston. 

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Just now, king canary said:

Agree to disagree on that one. Thought we were very poor in general v Preston. 

We did ok. If we'd been three down at home to Forest that night many would have combusted.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Clint has some valid points. There are reasons why DF could be sacked. I think he is stubborn.

His determination to play the same tactic even with different personnel. Zonal marking that has cost so many goals. And not using subs when they are needed.

What is in his favour is that he was let down by the board. I know we don't know the full story but the lack of spending didn't support the marvellous job he did last season.

Of course he had only been a reserve team coach so had no experience of buying and selling.

But Webber is there and should be helping out in the recruitment. But what recruitment you may ask? Byram yes but the rest no. Not in the EPL anyway.

I think DF is a decent coach but out of his depth with this club and its circumstances. Another season in the Championship is the least he deserves but if we sell any for decent money then I think the board has to give him a decent chance but bringing in new players.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

7 minutes ago, Clint said:

So if we’re using last season as the benchmark, we did unbelievably well to get promoted. But, we didn’t play well as regularly as people may think.

A lot of the time we were trailing and scored equalisers/winners late on purely down to throwing everything at the opposition. 

That doesn’t work at this level. If you’re losing in the championship and have Rhodes on the bench, you bring him on, get him involved and you’ve got half a chance. 
It doesn’t work at this level and that’s basically what Farke has resorted to all season but without having Rhodes! It’s not particularly clever, he just had better attacking players at his disposal than the opposition last season.

I agree with this. We had dodgy spells in a lot of games last season and conceded a lot of poor goals. But we had the firepower and belief to get ourselves out of holes and across the line in games. This season, at this level we don’t. 

[Cantiaci Canary 557]

10 minutes ago, Clint said:

So if we’re using last season as the benchmark, we did unbelievably well to get promoted. But, we didn’t play well as regularly as people may think.

A lot of the time we were trailing and scored equalisers/winners late on purely down to throwing everything at the opposition. 

That doesn’t work at this level. If you’re losing in the championship and have Rhodes on the bench, you bring him on, get him involved and you’ve got half a chance. 
It doesn’t work at this level and that’s basically what Farke has resorted to all season but without having Rhodes! It’s not particularly clever, he just had better attacking players at his disposal than the opposition last season.

I think that's harsh.

We played some great stuff last season... many opposition managers and fans said that we were a cut above.

You don't end up that far clear at the top of the Championship by fortune and having Rhodes.

The problem is that we haven't spent like SheffU and our style of play isn't as rugged as SheffU.

 

Let's invest in the roots, buy young starlets, keep an ethos/ identity / philosophy and go down that route to becoming a side that can stick rather than going around in circles like before.

Put simply ... we are in a FAR better position after relegation now than any demotion past.

Stick by Farke and Webber through the hail as well as the sunshine and who knows where we could end up?

Edited June 24, 2020 by Cantiaci Canary