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lEEDS ARE THROWING IT AWAY AGAIN

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1 hour ago, Cliff the Canary said:

There will always be peaks and troughs in football! Outside of the big established clubs, there will be times all teams falter, regardless of financial standing! Man City & Newcastle have both dropped to League One in recent times!

The EPL cash cow is so fat all teams will struggle with the drops in revenue on relegation.

 I for one have only ever used Leicester as a example of what could be achieved but the point that’s trying to be made, is that some of those teams (not all) at least made an sustained effort to remain an EPL club and most did manage prolonged periods as EPL clubs before their ultimate demise!

Now I fully expect certain people to come along touting the “but spending too much will financially ruin the club, just look at Bolton et al” doctrine, however I don’t recall any of us deemed ‘anti Delia’ ever advocating over spending gerzillions £££££££ and jeopardising the future of the club for all, just a proportionate spend to at least give the club a chance of mounting a challenge this year, instead of the half a$ed, defeatist, we are paupers and have no money culture, that Farke and Webber reiterate in every press conference! When you go into a season expecting to be the worst, is it any surprise that you are! That culture resonates down from the top down and I for one am amazed that Farke and Webber want to be part of it.
Again people will come along and quote the transfer failings of Klose and Naismith but I think Jim Smith has addressed that in his post above.

Ultimately if Norwich go down but come back stronger financially and on the pitch, the model has worked! If they don’t and they sell the best players to survive and lose the best management Team in the process, then it hasn’t. Hoping on the youth system to reliably churn out future superstars to replace all the sales is not guaranteed!

 I want nothing more for it to be the former but suspect it will be latter, only time will tell!

Below is the definition of ambition, have any of the boards actions going into the EPL reflect this?

ambition
/amˈbɪʃ(ə)n/
 
noun
  1. a strong desire to do or achieve something.
     
    desire and determination to achieve success
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

This is my understanding of ambition. And it's through that understanding that I see this ambition in spades at our club. So that's why I ask how this is measured at other clubs. Nobody seems to want to tell me. 

You seem to suggest only Leicester have more ambition. And while it's always best to be the best if there's only one club more ambitious the chances are changing our owners would be a suicidal gamble.

I think Kingo is right and some clubs have out performed us while others haven't. But that's football and It will always be so and if it wasn't what would be the point of it? 

If it's the fans who lack ambition then should we change them? And those Leeds fans who have lacked ambition for so long surely have no right to any success.

I'll try again. If I'm wrong and other clubs have more ambition how is it measured?

Edited by nutty nigel

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20 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

This is my understanding of ambition. And it's through that understanding that I see this ambition in spades at our club. So that's why I ask how this is measured at other clubs. Nobody seems to want to tell me. 

You seem to suggest only Leicester have more ambition. And while it's always best to be the best if there's only one club more ambitious the chances are changing our owners would be a suicidal gamble.

I think Kingo is right and some clubs have out performed us while others haven't. But that's football and It will always be so and if it wasn't what would be the point of it? 

If it's the fans who lack ambition then should we change them? And those Leeds fans who have lacked ambition for so long surely have no right to any success.

I'll try again. If I'm wrong and other clubs have more ambition how is it measured?

Nutty i'm not saying they don't want the club to do well, more that any ambition they have is constrained by their determination to retain ownership of the club and perhaps slightly risk adverse approach which overrides everything.

I may be proven wrong on this but in the event that Leeds get promoted I would be amazed if they are not more aggressive in pursuit of retaining their place in the premier league. I would also not be at all surprised if their owner brings in fresh investment or possibly even actively looks to sell the club to megabucks owners who have greater resources to enable Leeds to compete at that level. Now some might say that would have nothing to do with his ambition and more to do with him making a profit on his investment and that may be the case to a degree but the two do not need to be mutually exclusive if balanced properly. 

Whatever happens though others are right that their fans would almost certainly not tolerate the kind of tame acceptance of relegation being likely/inevitable that we show whenever we get to the top division. 

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1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

This is my understanding of ambition. And it's through that understanding that I see this ambition in spades at our club. So that's why I ask how this is measured at other clubs. Nobody seems to want to tell me. 

You seem to suggest only Leicester have more ambition. And while it's always best to be the best if there's only one club more ambitious the chances are changing our owners would a suicidal gamble.

I think Kingo is right and some clubs have out performed us while others haven't. But that's football and It will always be so and if it wasn't what would be the point of it? 

If it's the fans who lack ambition then should we change them? And those Leeds fans who have lacked ambition for so long surely have no right to any success.

I'll try again. If I'm wrong and other clubs have more ambition how is it measured?

I said I personally have only used Leicester as a comparison, please don’t misquote me!

They are a reasonably good comparison in club size, fan base, history and before the current Thai owners took charge, their financial clout.

For many many years they also yo-yo’d but then they opened up to owners who had the collateral and ambition to make them a top six side and would you believe it, they succeeded! Now along come those who will quote all the failed foreign ownership, but my point is was ‘ambitious’ of Leicester to take the risks and not settle for mediocrity!
How is being a top 26 club ambitious? That comment stinks 😷 of keeping expectations down and pacifying the fans, which lets admit isn’t hard, as so blatantly evident on this message board.

How is being top 26 ambitious? ambition is to succeed, be better than you can be and take some risks to achieve it, which none of these characteristics are displayed by our current owners, who seem quite happy for the club to tread water between 17th in EPL and 6th in the Championship! 
I think Delia’s heart is in the right place and as custodian of the club she wants to ensure it’s kept local and is around as a community club forever, but as a business model in a world of ultra wealthy owners/clubs, it’s naive! To use an analogy, Delia wants Norwich to be the community corner shop, with local owners for local people but still hope we can compete with Tesco and Sainsbury at the same time.

In this current football age a club’s location, fan base, history is irrelevant and only investment will elevate a middle size club to greater things!

So to answer your question Nutty, I want an owner that doesn’t see top 26 as NCFC limitations, I want an owner than can financially support the club and doesn’t have to go begging to fans to pay for a new training ground, I want an owner who see’s the club breaking into the established elite and I want to owner who can make the club thrive, not merely exist, that’s AMBITIOUS!!

What I’m tired of is ownership that cannot take the club forward and compete at a higher level, yet stubbornly refuse to relinquish power!

As this thread and many before it have emphasised, what I want is clearly not what the majority want but that doesn’t make me any lesser of a fan! So let’s just agree to disagree!

Cheers Nutty

Edited by Cliff the Canary

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13 minutes ago, Cliff the Canary said:

I said I personally have only used Leicester as a comparison, please don’t misquote me!

They are a reasonably good comparison in club size, fan base, history and before the current Thai owners took charge, their financial clout.

For many many years they also yo-yo’d but then they opened up to owners who had the collateral and ambition to make them a top six side and would you believe it, they succeeded! Now along come those who will quote all the failed foreign ownership, but my point is was ‘ambitious’ of Leicester to take the risks and not settle for mediocrity!
How is being a top 26 club ambitious? That comment stinks 😷 of keeping expectations down and pacifying the fans, which lets admit isn’t hard, as so blatantly evident on this message board.

How is being top 26 ambitious? ambition is to succeed, be better than you can be and take some risks to achieve it, which none of these characteristics are displayed by our current owners, who seem quite happy for the club to tread water between 17th in EPL and 6th in the Championship! 
I think Delia’s heart is in the right place and as custodian of the club she wants to ensure it’s kept local and is around as a community club forever, but as a business model in a world of ultra wealthy owners/clubs, it’s naive! To use an analogy, Delia wants Norwich to be the community corner shop, with local owners for local people but still hope we can compete with Tesco and Sainsbury at the same time.

In this current football age a club’s location, fan base, history is irrelevant and only investment will elevate a middle size club to greater things!

So to answer your question Nutty, I want an owner that doesn’t see top 26 as NCFC limitations, I want an owner than can financially support the club and doesn’t have to go begging to fans to pay for a new training ground, I want an owner who see’s the club breaking into the established elite, that’s AMBITIOUS!!

What I’m tired of is ownership that cannot take the club forward and compete at a higher level, yet stubbornly refuse to relinquish power!

As this thread and many before it have emphasised, what I want is clearly not what the majority want but that doesn’t make me any lesser of a fan! So let’s just agree to disagree!

Cheers Nutty

Cliff, you are most definitely not a lesser fan for having a different viewpoint to some of us, so don’t even entertain the idea. We all have ideals as to how the club should move forward, and as supporters of the club we love, we all have that right to voice how we’d like to see the club evolve. 

This would be one shoite message board if we were all cut from the same cloth and agreed on everything! It’s ok to disagree I reckon 👍

OTBC

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2 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Cliff, you are most definitely not a lesser fan for having a different viewpoint to some of us, so don’t even entertain the idea. We all have ideals as to how the club should move forward, and as supporters of the club we love, we all have that right to voice how we’d like to see the club evolve. 

This would be one shoite message board if we were all cut from the same cloth and agreed on everything! It’s ok to disagree I reckon 👍

OTBC

Agreed Alex 👍 Cheers 😃

Oh Nutty, I wasn’t suggesting you thought I was a lesser fan, I was just generalising 👍

It would be boring if we all agreed which this particular topic is proof of 🤣😜🤣

 

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10 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Nutty i'm not saying they don't want the club to do well, more that any ambition they have is constrained by their determination to retain ownership of the club and perhaps slightly risk adverse approach which overrides everything.

I may be proven wrong on this but in the event that Leeds get promoted I would be amazed if they are not more aggressive in pursuit of retaining their place in the premier league. I would also not be at all surprised if their owner brings in fresh investment or possibly even actively looks to sell the club to megabucks owners who have greater resources to enable Leeds to compete at that level. Now some might say that would have nothing to do with his ambition and more to do with him making a profit on his investment and that may be the case to a degree but the two do not need to be mutually exclusive if balanced properly. 

Whatever happens though others are right that their fans would almost certainly not tolerate the kind of tame acceptance of relegation being likely/inevitable that we show whenever we get to the top division. 

So ambition isn't really a strong desire to achieve success for a football club but is basically the pursuit of money. And if that pursuit means selling at a personal profit it's still ambitious because the new owners will be richer so be more ambitious. 

Where as our owners who have no ambition to make money but instead ambition for the club to succeed are less ambitious. They would be more ambitious if they were looking to make a fast buck.

And so is that why people say the owners are holding us back? Not because of what they have achieved or for any football related reason, but because if it wasn't for them someone with more money would own our club. And by definition our club would be more successful because the owner him or herself had more money.

So really there is no football ambition left. Simply an ambition for more and more money. And the league tables are pretty much decided by which owner has most money. So the ownerships  have to continually change because as one new owner hits the top twenty rich list another drops out and needs to be replaced.

And fans who dream of success for their club are holding the club back because they are not actively pursuing these richer owners. Especially those who buy into their club through things like the bond scheme. Far better to pine for other people's money like people whose life ambition is to win the lottery. I guess ambition to win the lottery is the real meaning of life.

But your final paragraph about these Leeds fans makes no sense. Surely by your measurement of ambition they are the least ambitious of all having tolerated being out-ambitioned  by our owners for so many years. Or will they get new fans if they're promoted?

 

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50 minutes ago, Cliff the Canary said:

I said I personally have only used Leicester as a comparison, please don’t misquote me!

They are a reasonably good comparison in club size, fan base, history and before the current Thai owners took charge, their financial clout.

For many many years they also yo-yo’d but then they opened up to owners who had the collateral and ambition to make them a top six side and would you believe it, they succeeded! Now along come those who will quote all the failed foreign ownership, but my point is was ‘ambitious’ of Leicester to take the risks and not settle for mediocrity!
How is being a top 26 club ambitious? That comment stinks 😷 of keeping expectations down and pacifying the fans, which lets admit isn’t hard, as so blatantly evident on this message board.

How is being top 26 ambitious? ambition is to succeed, be better than you can be and take some risks to achieve it, which none of these characteristics are displayed by our current owners, who seem quite happy for the club to tread water between 17th in EPL and 6th in the Championship! 
I think Delia’s heart is in the right place and as custodian of the club she wants to ensure it’s kept local and is around as a community club forever, but as a business model in a world of ultra wealthy owners/clubs, it’s naive! To use an analogy, Delia wants Norwich to be the community corner shop, with local owners for local people but still hope we can compete with Tesco and Sainsbury at the same time.

In this current football age a club’s location, fan base, history is irrelevant and only investment will elevate a middle size club to greater things!

So to answer your question Nutty, I want an owner that doesn’t see top 26 as NCFC limitations, I want an owner than can financially support the club and doesn’t have to go begging to fans to pay for a new training ground, I want an owner who see’s the club breaking into the established elite and I want to owner who can make the club thrive, not merely exist, that’s AMBITIOUS!!

What I’m tired of is ownership that cannot take the club forward and compete at a higher level, yet stubbornly refuse to relinquish power!

As this thread and many before it have emphasised, what I want is clearly not what the majority want but that doesn’t make me any lesser of a fan! So let’s just agree to disagree!

Cheers Nutty

I'm glad you don't just hold up Leicester as an example of a club that succeeds. In return I won't just hold up Ipswich as one that doesn't. But where does that leave us. Are we successful or not?

So if this owner you want drops out of the top twenty they need replacing even if their ambition is to be top six and return?

 

Edited by nutty nigel

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40 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I'm glad you don't just hold up Leicester as an example of a club that succeeds. In return I won't just hold up Ipswich as one that doesn't. But where does that leave us. Are we successful or not?

So if this owner you want drops out of the top twenty they need replacing even if their ambition is to be top six and return?

 

I’d rather drop out of the top twenty trying to succeed, than accept the current top 26 model, which is the limitations of the current owners!

Norwich are very successful at being a mediocre top 26 side, which is not a very ambitious target, by definition!

Guess it’s all about personal expectations! 

 

Edited by Cliff the Canary

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Is it more ambitious to try to stay in the PL on a shoestring budget or to try to stay in the PL by spanking a load of cash on players? 

Is it more ambitious to develop youth players and give them a chance to reach their potential or just buy in some big names? 

Is it more ambitious to build a team from your resources over some seasons or to buy a team and make it work? 

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1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

So ambition isn't really a strong desire to achieve success for a football club but is basically the pursuit of money. And if that pursuit means selling at a personal profit it's still ambitious because the new owners will be richer so be more ambitious. 

Where as our owners who have no ambition to make money but instead ambition for the club to succeed are less ambitious. They would be more ambitious if they were looking to make a fast buck.

And so is that why people say the owners are holding us back? Not because of what they have achieved or for any football related reason, but because if it wasn't for them someone with more money would own our club. And by definition our club would be more successful because the owner him or herself had more money.

So really there is no football ambition left. Simply an ambition for more and more money. And the league tables are pretty much decided by which owner has most money. So the ownerships  have to continually change because as one new owner hits the top twenty rich list another drops out and needs to be replaced.

And fans who dream of success for their club are holding the club back because they are not actively pursuing these richer owners. Especially those who buy into their club through things like the bond scheme. Far better to pine for other people's money like people whose life ambition is to win the lottery. I guess ambition to win the lottery is the real meaning of life.

But your final paragraph about these Leeds fans makes no sense. Surely by your measurement of ambition they are the least ambitious of all having tolerated being out-ambitioned  by our owners for so many years. Or will they get new fans if they're promoted?

 

"Top 26" is not "ambition" - "Top 26" is a convenient target that just happens to fit with the glass ceiling imposed upon us by constraints of their ownership.

The ambition extends to us being as good as we can be whilst working within those constraints. Its an ambition of sorts but is not the same as, for example, the ambitions of the owners of Wolves who took over that club with it in a similar state to us at the time. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

"Top 26" is not "ambition" - "Top 26" is a convenient target that just happens to fit with the glass ceiling imposed upon us by constraints of their ownership.

The ambition extends to us being as good as we can be whilst working within those constraints. Its an ambition of sorts but is not the same as, for example, the ambitions of the owners of Wolves who took over that club with it in a similar state to us at the time. 

 

Yeah we should be European champions by 2022

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12 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

"Top 26" is not "ambition" - "Top 26" is a convenient target that just happens to fit with the glass ceiling imposed upon us by constraints of their ownership.

The ambition extends to us being as good as we can be whilst working within those constraints. Its an ambition of sorts but is not the same as, for example, the ambitions of the owners of Wolves who took over that club with it in a similar state to us at the time. 

 

I didn't mention top 26. Although it's weird that a few top 26 positions is all the ambitious Leeds have been able to muster while we've had 5 top twenty finishes.

You haven't answered any of the points I made. Just come up with the old faithful what about "whatever club" is up there at the time. You've been ranting about this for at least 10 years yet 6 years ago your Wolves were in League one. It's only the last three years they've been "top 26" and two years they've been top 20. They replaced Sunderland who'd been top 20 for a long time. They are currently in league one. But you brought Wolves up not Sunderland who had a lot longer as a better example of your interpretation of ambition.

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2 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

Yeah we should be European champions by 2022

You joke but Wolves owners took them over 3 years ago, declared they would be playing in Europe within a few years and here they are 6th in the premier league and still in the latter stages of the Europa League. And to be honest whilst they have spent quite big and no doubt pay decent wages they've not done it in a completely irresponsible way.

I get our model. I get its how we have to do it under Delia and Michael. I will even acknowledge the club is being run well and is (aside from this season where I think we've made errors) being run well. I'm not completely ungrateful for that and of course I'd rather than than be run as a basket case club. But I still think that even if they are not going to step aside and find new owners with greater resources we could do more to try and stay in the prem when we get there because ultimately relying on continually getting promoted back to the top level is equally a risky strategy. 

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16 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

"Top 26" is not "ambition" - "Top 26" is a convenient target that just happens to fit with the glass ceiling imposed upon us by constraints of their ownership.

The ambition extends to us being as good as we can be whilst working within those constraints. Its an ambition of sorts but is not the same as, for example, the ambitions of the owners of Wolves who took over that club with it in a similar state to us at the time. 

 

Having ambition is **** easy though- loads of owners come in and say 'we want to make club x a top 4 club!'

You need a strategy, you need the people and you need the means to make that ambition a reality.

The top 26 goal is, in and of itself, not a bad target and sensible considering where we are as a club. What it does need is some other mini objectives within it.

For me there are two that really stand out as things I'd love for us to really aim at.

1) Staying in the Premier League for longer than three seasons

2) Reaching a domestic cup final

Plenty of clubs we would consider ourselves to be competing with have managed these.

I don't question the overall strategy (although I think it was badly executed this season), I don't question the people (ie Farke and Webber), I do question the means.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

You joke but Wolves owners took them over 3 years ago, declared they would be playing in Europe within a few years and here they are 6th in the premier league and still in the latter stages of the Europa League. And to be honest whilst they have spent quite big and no doubt pay decent wages they've not done it in a completely irresponsible way.

Dozens of overseas owners have said that when taking over a Championship club. Aside from Wolves, how many have succeeded? 

They may have the ambition, but don't have the nous to even achieve Premier League football, never mind European.

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4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

You joke but Wolves owners took them over 3 years ago, declared they would be playing in Europe within a few years and here they are 6th in the premier league and still in the latter stages of the Europa League. And to be honest whilst they have spent quite big and no doubt pay decent wages they've not done it in a completely irresponsible way.

I get our model. I get its how we have to do it under Delia and Michael. I will even acknowledge the club is being run well and is (aside from this season where I think we've made errors) being run well. I'm not completely ungrateful for that and of course I'd rather than than be run as a basket case club. But I still think that even if they are not going to step aside and find new owners with greater resources we could do more to try and stay in the prem when we get there because ultimately relying on continually getting promoted back to the top level is equally a risky strategy. 

Well hopefully we can use our profit to push us further next time rather than a load of investment 

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

Having ambition is **** easy though- loads of owners come in and say 'we want to make club x a top 4 club!'

You need a strategy, you need the people and you need the means to make that ambition a reality.

The top 26 goal is, in and of itself, not a bad target and sensible considering where we are as a club. What it does need is some other mini objectives within it.

For me there are two that really stand out as things I'd love for us to really aim at.

1) Staying in the Premier League for longer than three seasons

2) Reaching a domestic cup final

Plenty of clubs we would consider ourselves to be competing with have managed these.

I don't question the overall strategy (although I think it was badly executed this season), I don't question the people (ie Farke and Webber), I do question the means.

 

 

I agree with this. As I've said before, top 26 should be the bar, not the ultimate ambition/target. 

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1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Dozens of overseas owners have said that when taking over a Championship club. Aside from Wolves, how many have succeeded? 

They may have the ambition, but don't have the nous to even achieve Premier League football, never mind European.

But when they get there how many have given it away as easily as we do (unless a miracle starts happening tonight and I hope it does). That's the point. We know we can get promoted but none of these clubs have succumbed to relegation so tamely and repeatedly as we have once they have been presented with the opportunity.

Even Wigan (being discussed on the other thread) had 8 years up in the prem, reached the league cup final, won the FA Cup and played in the UEFA Cup during that spell. Whilst obviously we don't envy them their position now I would actually take a couple of years of hardship in return for seeing Norwich win the FA Cup.

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5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

But when they get there how many have given it away as easily as we do (unless a miracle starts happening tonight and I hope it does). That's the point. We know we can get promoted but none of these clubs have succumbed to relegation so tamely and repeatedly as we have once they have been presented with the opportunity.

Even Wigan (being discussed on the other thread) had 8 years up in the prem, reached the league cup final, won the FA Cup and played in the UEFA Cup during that spell. Whilst obviously we don't envy them their position now I would actually take a couple of years of hardship in return for seeing Norwich win the FA Cup.

As a Norwich supporter when would you say you last suffered hardship?

As someone who claimed only last season that we couldn't compete with the binners I would have thought you'd be elated. Hardship is where they are. Even with all their ambition...

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I think the 'top 26' label is a PR job by a very wiley operator in Webber.

Of course the ambition is to get established as high up the league as we can. We don't actually want to be regular relegation candidates. But for now that comes as part of the bigger picture and it isn't very nice so supporters don't want to hear it.

It's how an ex-CEO of mine would refer to handling certain customers 'with kid gloves'. Just managing expectations. 

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6 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

As a Norwich supporter when would you say you last suffered hardship?

As someone who claimed only last season that we couldn't compete with the binners I would have thought you'd be elated. Hardship is where they are. Even with all their ambition...

We've been through this before Nutty. I didn't say we couldn't compete at the time with the sc*m I said that if we stay down for any prolonged period of time without parachute payments then without our owners making up any budget shortfall like Evans does for them we might not even have a budget on a par with clubs like that like that. In fairness, as you and others pointed out, I will acknowledge that our higher ticketing, commercial and matchday income does actually make up for that £7m deficit Evans was plugging so actually the situation was not quite as bad as I said but it could get that way if, for example, we had 10 years of tedium in the champ like they did and ticket sales and revenues dropped off.

I would say the last period of real hardship we as fans had was the relegation to league 1 and the preceding couple of seasons. They were pretty grim with little or no hope on the horizon and few good players either at the club or coming through. League 1 itself was a laugh but primarily only because we were down there for a single season and scoring for fun.

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I don't think we can really judge, at the moment, whether Leeds have got it right and will continue to do so. We will have a better idea in 5 or 10 years time when we will know how they have fared, and the impact of their spending decisions (ie doing a Villa or an NCFC).

Will Wigan fans still treasure their FA Cup final appearance when it had such a detrimental affect on their Premier League status?

I am happy with a "Top 26" ambition as it is pretty realistic. It is ambitious - it is saying we want to be in the play-offs or above, but without buying success. The top Prem clubs have bought their way to the top, but Fulham and Villa show that spending shed-loads of money does not guarantee success.

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25 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Even Wigan (being discussed on the other thread) had 8 years up in the prem, reached the league cup final, won the FA Cup and played in the UEFA Cup during that spell. Whilst obviously we don't envy them their position now I would actually take a couple of years of hardship in return for seeing Norwich win the FA Cup.

Yeah I kind of agree with this. I'd quantify it by saying administration is a step too far in terms of hardship though.

As a fan though, would I swap our last 20 years with Fulham's? Yeah I think I probably would.

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44 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

But when they get there how many have given it away as easily as we do (unless a miracle starts happening tonight and I hope it does). That's the point. We know we can get promoted but none of these clubs have succumbed to relegation so tamely and repeatedly as we have once they have been presented with the opportunity.

Which clubs? Some of these clubs that have been mentioned (Leeds, Forest, Wednesday, Derby, for example) haven't been promoted in years so we don't know if they would've succumbed to relegation so tamely.

It's like Man City bemoaning their lack of success in the Champions League by saying "Look at West Ham, Norwich and Brentford- they've never bottled it in the Champions League like we have".

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21 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Which clubs? Some of these clubs that have been mentioned (Leeds, Forest, Wednesday, Derby, for example) haven't been promoted in years so we don't know if they would've succumbed to relegation so tamely.

It's like Man City bemoaning their lack of success in the Champions League by saying "Look at West Ham, Norwich and Brentford- they've never bottled it in the Champions League like we have".

I made this table last year during a similar debate- it covers a selection of teams that I would say are of similar size or even slightly smaller than us and focuses on the period since our current owners took over.

  Total Longest Run
NCFC 6 3
STK 10 10
WGN 8 8
CHA 8 7
BHAM 7 4
SWAN 7 7
CAR 2 1
BORO 13 11
IPS 2 2
BHA 3 3
CPA 9 6
WBA 12 8
FUL 14 13
QPR 3 2
READ 3 2

As you can see there are a fair few teams in this list who have managed longer stints in the Premier League, which slightly backs up Jim's point.

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5 minutes ago, king canary said:

I made this table last year during a similar debate- it covers a selection of teams that I would say are of similar size or even slightly smaller than us and focuses on the period since our current owners took over.

 

  Total Longest Run
NCFC 6 3
STK 10 10
WGN 8 8
CHA 8 7
BHAM 7 4
SWAN 7 7
CAR 2 1
BORO 13 11
IPS 2 2
BHA 3 3
CPA 9 6
WBA 12 8
FUL 14 13
QPR 3 2
READ 3 2

As you can see there are a fair few teams in this list who have managed longer stints in the Premier League, which slightly backs up Jim's point.

That's because we only had one season in the first 15 years of this spell. 

If you take recent history, then we're way ahead of most of those.

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33 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

That's because we only had one season in the first 15 years of this spell. 

If you take recent history, then we're way ahead of most of those.

The point @Jim Smith was making wasn't about how many seasons we have had though- it was about what we do when we get there, hence your Brentford comment.

What that table shows is plenty of teams have made a better fist of staying up long term than us.

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After last night's results promotion is still in the balance for me, I still think 85/86 points will be enough but with Brentford on a great run it could go to the last game.

 

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2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

We've been through this before Nutty. I didn't say we couldn't compete at the time with the sc*m I said that if we stay down for any prolonged period of time without parachute payments then without our owners making up any budget shortfall like Evans does for them we might not even have a budget on a par with clubs like that like that. In fairness, as you and others pointed out, I will acknowledge that our higher ticketing, commercial and matchday income does actually make up for that £7m deficit Evans was plugging so actually the situation was not quite as bad as I said but it could get that way if, for example, we had 10 years of tedium in the champ like they did and ticket sales and revenues dropped off.

I would say the last period of real hardship we as fans had was the relegation to league 1 and the preceding couple of seasons. They were pretty grim with little or no hope on the horizon and few good players either at the club or coming through. League 1 itself was a laugh but primarily only because we were down there for a single season and scoring for fun.

We had no parachute payments and you said that we couldn't compete with the binners. One season later we just narrowly lost a cup quarter final to Man Utd and are playing arsenal in the PL at the moment. The binners are languishing in league one and not looking like that changing anytime soon.

You're right, the last time we had hardship was relegation to league one. And if you'd got your way and new owners in then you would now be claiming success because we'd since won league one, won at Wembley and spent at least 5 seasons in the PL.

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3 hours ago, DraytonBoy said:

After last night's results promotion is still in the balance for me, I still think 85/86 points will be enough but with Brentford on a great run it could go to the last game.

 

West Brom 1-0 up at H/T away at Sheffield Wednesday will get the jitters going again.

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