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lake district canary

Hang in there, all is not lost!

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12 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Something I would add - that is not intended to exonerate a poor performance - is that I did not feel it was a ‘scapegoat’ performance. No single player made dramatic errors, everybody was well short in tactical, technical, physically and - apparently - psychological terms.

Pukki - our most effective player - repeatedly did not ‘get away’ when presented with decent opportunities to scamper away crab-like and get a shot away on target as we have all seen him do effectively many, many times. He looked slow, rusty and mentally encumbered. His reactions times looked slow. 

Whilst we all love Klose as a player (at his best), it appeared to me - and this is only an opinion based on the footage - that others around him where less than convinced by his mobility. The act of having to ‘half-cover just-in-case for another player (as Godfrey appeared to be doing at times) massively impacts your own game and can be quickly noticed and exploited by street-wise opponents. In coaching terms ‘it isn’t always the one who makes the mistake that makes the mistake’. 

MacClean and Trybull should perhaps have ‘sat’ more to combat this, though our two strikers - if they don’t both work very hard into the channels and sometimes drop in and sometimes don’t - can create confusion via erratic tactical movements that affect the midfielders behind them. 

To compound this Buendia gave the ball away too much in poor areas and Cantwell did not get into the rhythm of the game. That’s a lot of your players looking around trying to make sense of the (changed) on-field structure. 

Farke must also take a bullet in the shoulder for that. Whilst no-one will lament the end and of Chris Hughton’s time much, there is method in the madness of not changing if you are inferior (which on paper we have always been this year). When you do tear up the drilled blueprint and your grooved, repeated message (as an inferior side note, it doesn’t apply as much to top sides who can focus more on flexible-attack strategies to  reste problems for other. If you’re worse I’m afraid you can’t really get away with this. And we didn’t).

Parma 
 

Parma, I'm interested if you have any opinions on something I see as being a big factor in our inability to win games this year. 

I feel we're trying much too hard to get the ball from front to back in 3 passes or less, at times appearing a little like an NFL team in the way a 'quarterback' will pick up the ball and the rest of the team go charging forwards in the hopes of being picked out. It's a really high stakes way of transitioning and personally I can't understand the thinking behind it for our team. Our forward players have little to no ability to hold the ball up and the big forward passes as very high risk & often get turned over- this is how I saw it yesterday, where Southampton just closed us down before the ball was release and we kept getting countered.

I just think we need to make more of an effort to hold possession higher up the pitch, where players like Emi can make a difference.

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Posted (edited)

@Mason 47 I think that the move you refer to is not designed as a primary weapon, rather a fall-back when progressive ‘under-load’ playing out from the back is shut out. 

Whilst Stieperman is not the easiest player on the eye, it may be the case - and I’d want to go over last year’s footage again - that he actually made a good percentage of such situations into something playable in the Championship. To state the obvious Drmic is nothing like Stieperman. 

Because Drmic is nothing like Stieperman, the midfielders pushed aggressively higher, ostensibly trying to support. As you state this is rather naively over-ambitious tactically at this level. As any good chess player knows, nearly winning is normal when you ‘open up and go for it’. In the end though, your exposed structure causes you to eventually lose (perhaps claiming very English ‘glorious failure’ when it was actually nothing of the sort).

In the Championship - when you have half a second longer to play the ball - your ‘out ball’ may be serviceable. In the Premier League - where Stieperman may not be considered silky enough (or perhaps he WOULD have played?) - this becomes quarter of a second and the out ball a bit less serviceable, the defender cuter and the Subsequent turnover more costly. 

There may be something in what you say actually. Perhaps some well-laid plans were disrupted late on and Farke tried to shoehorn  pieces into his new way?

This would explain the incoherence, the clear tactical confusion on-field and the brittleness as soon as events went against. 

The ‘out ball’ you speak of is a mental relic from the previous system - issued when tactical Plan A failed - and my suspicion is that the more direct play via the inclusion of Drmic left all without the mental shield of ‘looking good’ and ‘playing good football’ which can of course at least (artificially if you like) raise the spirits of the underdog. Without Stieperman I am unconvinced that this pattern of play has any value for us (even if the existing isn’t working). It is swapping 6/10 for 4/10.

Truthfully though, when you are inferior even terrific tactics can look redundant. Personally I feel the overall shape change - welcomed by some no doubt - was a tactical and psychological error.

Parma 

Edited by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

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Reading above post does make me think that at least we should bring stiepermann back for the next few games. At least he does add some strength and determination 

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5 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I can understand disappointment at losing, but the over reaction to yesterday is a bit harsh, given the circumstances we are all in.  

I stopped reading here.

I've read your posts and always admired your optimism, support for the club and enthusiasm. But calling the reaction received "a bit harsh" and suggesting the circumstances are to blame is entirely ridiculous.

Yesterday was atrocious on every level. Team selection, tactics, fitness levels, individual performances, team performance, game management - it was all about as bad as we've seen in years. It's not something as fans we should accept. It's not right that we go down with an absolute whimper. 

So to see a fan on a prominent message board offering excuses for the club is equally embarrassing and shameful. 

I don't know if you genuinely believe the crap you've come out with here or are playing up to the reputation and persona you've created around yourself, but it's wrong on every level.

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Hello Lakey. It is good to see you posting regularly again on the board. 👍

Quote

NCFC is the envy of many clubs in the football league - and probably some in the PL as well.  We try to play football in it's best form, not just physical dominance.  We try to play like Man City and Liverpool - the footballing dream.

I'm not sure we are really the envy of any fellow club in the PL - ultimately, getting results is key - and we clearly haven't done that enough. It's laudable that we try to play attractive football but then again I often try to do tricks ala Messi and often end up almost breaking my spine. Why does this happen? Because I'm not good enough.

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Yes, it's a dream - a dream that is worth everything - look how good we can look against ANY team - yes, we haven't been able to sustain it for long enough or score the goals that kind of play has deserved - but we can look fantastic. 

Playing well for 15-20 minutes won't win you many matches though - yesterday being a prime example. 

Quote

The miracle is still there to be had...

No, its done Lakey. And you know what? That's OK. Whatever we all feel about how we prepared for the season, who we did or didn't buy etc etc, I truly believe the decisions made were undertaken with the best interests of the club at heart - they just didn't work out. Hopefully lessons can again be learned (and I think a few were learned from previous attempts this time around) and we can go again next year (although I have a feeling it won't be easy).

OTBC

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1 minute ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I stopped reading here.

I've read your posts and always admired your optimism, support for the club and enthusiasm. But calling the reaction received "a bit harsh" and suggesting the circumstances are to blame is entirely ridiculous.

Yesterday was atrocious on every level. Team selection, tactics, fitness levels, individual performances, team performance, game management - it was all about as bad as we've seen in years. It's not something as fans we should accept. It's not right that we go down with an absolute whimper. 

So to see a fan on a prominent message board offering excuses for the club is equally embarrassing and shameful. 

I don't know if you genuinely believe the crap you've come out with here or are playing up to the reputation and persona you've created around yourself, but it's wrong on every level.

You can think what you like, but it was not "as bad as we've seen in years" What, are you six years old or something? It was a bad day for us without a doubt, but bigging it up as somehow the world's worst performance is just wallowing in self pity.

We are the weakest team in the division, so what did you expect?  There is a chance that we can still do something, but we need players like Drmic and Pukki to take their chances when they get them to give us a bit of confidence. There was no confidence there last night and there were no fans to boost the players. 

It was very disappointing, but we can come back from this and I believe the next match will see us much more back in the swing of things. 

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2 hours ago, Monty13 said:

The team I saw didn’t look well drilled enough, fit enough or hungry enough to survive. It looked devoid of ideas and lacking any real bite.

We are almost certainly going down and that’s because we are one of if not the weakest team.

I wish that wasn’t the case, but it clearly is. They took a gamble this year to spend minimally in the hopes of staying up rather than risk a bigger financial outlay. It hasn’t paid off. I don’t agree it was the right approach, but I understand it.

We have a squad of players that almost to a man lacks either the experience or the quality required to compete in this division. Managed by a clearly talented guy but who is learning as he goes with probably the worst tool set in the division.

I’m a realist, I wish things were different, I wish we’d risked a bit more to try and compete but I don’t really blame the Board for that, especially given the economic shock of this season on club finances in hindsight. Nor do I blame Webber or Farke particularly for the fact they’ve made errors, they will hopefully learn from the mistakes and continue to grow with us as a club.

While I’m disappointed by this season the real kicker will be if we don’t make progress as a club next season towards becoming an established PL team. So no I don’t want to see the board, Webber or Farke go personally. Stability is the most likely thing to breed long term success.

 

 

 

I'm not having that Farke is learning much at all. Our basic tactics and approach are the same as last season and our errors are the same as last season. 

Farke and Webber have brought in 30 - 40 players since arriving here, they have continued to do so, more arriving in the next weeks as seasons end. They are his players, and have been consistently using his tactics.

He is not good enough. 

 

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3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

You can think what you like, but it was not "as bad as we've seen in years" What, are you six years old or something? It was a bad day for us without a doubt, but bigging it up as somehow the world's worst performance is just wallowing in self pity.

We are the weakest team in the division, so what did you expect?  There is a chance that we can still do something, but we need players like Drmic and Pukki to take their chances when they get them to give us a bit of confidence. There was no confidence there last night and there were no fans to boost the players. 

It was very disappointing, but we can come back from this and I believe the next match will see us much more back in the swing of things. 

It was the single worst performance I've seen since Millwall away. Which was in 2017 - aka years ago. If you care to identify worse since, I'm happy to accept being proven wrong. 

Are you really that petty that you can't respond to my points without insults? 

Excusing the performance because of a lack of crowds causing low confidence is utterly ridiculous. Southampton had the exact same conditions and weren't affected were they? 

Ignoring reality and hiding yourself in a world of positivity and excuses helps no one. There absolutely still is a chance (about the only thing I agree with you on) but we must make right that which we did so very wrong.

 

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3 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Are you really that petty that you can't respond to my points without insults? 

Err, pot and kettle ? 

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5 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

Err, pot and kettle ? 

I could say the same to you, given your desperate attempts to avoid a discussion by claiming I'd had some mental breakdown. So pipe down, ****.

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3 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I could say the same to you, given your desperate attempts to avoid a discussion by claiming I'd had some mental breakdown. So pipe down, ****.

Well that proves my point 😁

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So far we’ve had our rivals gain from in 1 in 9,000 technology failure, a 93rd minute equaliser and a 95 minute winner. We put in a pathetic performance in the easiest match of the bottom six and get hammered. I would say all is lost, we’re going down and looks like we’re going down in pathetic fashion! If you think anything different, you need to stay off the illegal substances. 

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6 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I can understand disappointment at losing, but the over reaction to yesterday is a bit harsh, given the circumstances we are all in.  These are unprecedented times and football is going through it's own trauma trying to deal with the conditions caused by the coronavirus.  Clubs are all in the same boat, for sure, but dealing with the situation is hard. Worst of all is there are no fans allowed at the games and this is a big factor at home matches.   

So dig deep and look at the situation calmly and rationally and you will see an almost impossible situation. Up against it in the league being so far down, the weirdness of the situation and the continued saga of injuries to defenders and opposition of far greater resources than us. 

Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, change the owners.........change the record more like.  A continued bleating of fans seemimgly self entitled and demanding change when we are STILL one of the best clubs in the country.  Premier league or championship, one of the best clubs in the country.  That is how we are getting to the PL so often and other clubs of greater resources can't get anywhere near it.  So you can't accept being the small resourced club that keeps coming back only to be knocked down again. Well tough. Welcome to the real world.  NCFC is the envy of many clubs in the football league - and probably some in the PL as well.  We try to play football in it's best form, not just physical dominance.  We try to play like Man City and Liverpool - the footballing dream.

Yes, it's a dream - a dream that is worth everything - look how good we can look against ANY team - yes, we haven't been able to sustain it for long enough or score the goals that kind of play has deserved - but we can look fantastic.  Yesterday was one of those matches where we just got physically outdone and the pressure of that week after week has been telling.  Farkeball - at it's best - is fantastic - and anyone who does not think that his style of football is the best we have ever seen (when it is working well) - or at least as good as those days in the late 80s early 90s, then they are plainly just not really understanding anything. 

So be careful - and don't be sucked into the dramas that social media throws up - the ones where anti-ncfc trolls try to paint a terrible picture of the club - we know who you are.  Think for yourselves - look at it with an open mind - yes, yesterday was an awful match, but try and accept that the circumstances are against us.  Sure some things could be done differently, but in Farke we trust........or should do, given his achievements with us so far.  

Imo, the first matches in this closed door series are unknowns for everyone, players and fans alike - it's all very strange. We came off badly yesterday, but there will be lessons learned and the experience of that first weird scenario of a match will help us next time.

The miracle is still there to be had, looking unlikely, I know, but hang in there, we know we can play great football - and maybe there are some twists and turns to come.

Football has shown what it is all about I'm afraid, money, and that includes Norwich City. It's not about football, the love of the game, the supporter, any more. It's all about money. Sky have seen to that even in a pandemic. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Are you really that petty that you can't respond to my points without insults?

Insults? What insults? Asking whether you are six years old?  If you want to talk about insults, your first post to me said

"I don't know if you genuinely believe the crap you've come out with here or are playing up to the reputation and persona you've created around you"

Hardly a pleasant way to speak to anyone, is it?  

My thoughts are always heartfelt, there is no "persona" - I just post what I think - and in this case I think there has been too much of an over reaction. You can agree or disagree, but don't tell me it is "crap" unless you have something better to offer than to complain about so called insults that you are quite happy to give out, but can't take in return.

Perhaps I was right about the six year old thing, perhaps you do need to grow up, or at least learn to discuss reasonably on a message boad. This isn't twitter or facebook.

Edited by lake district canary
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9 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Insults? What insults? Asking whether you are six years old?  If you want to talk about insults, your first post to me said

"I don't know if you genuinely believe the crap you've come out with here or are playing up to the reputation and persona you've created around you"

Hardly a pleasant way to speak to anyone, is it?  

My thoughts are always heartfelt, there is no "persona" - I just post what I think - and in this case I think there has been too much of an over reaction. You can agree or disagree, but don't tell me it is "crap" unless you have something better to offer than to complain about so called insults that you are quite happy to give out, but can't take in return.

Perhaps I was right about the six year old thing, perhaps you do need to grow up, or at least learn to discuss reasonably on a message boad. This isn't twitter or facebook.

What chance do you give us Lakey with 8 games to go ? 

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Its mathematically possible to stay up.

Every shred of evidence suggests we're going down with a bit of a whimper though.

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1 minute ago, Midlands Yellow said:

What chance do you give us Lakey with 8 games to go ? 

Improvement can happen.......anything can happen.  I'm not stupid, I know it is unlikely, but nothing is definite until it is definite.  Win your next game and the teams above don't and suddenly they are tantalisingly within reach.  It has to happen twice to really make us look as if we can catch them up, so maybe win the next two games and then you are right back in it.

Winning a match looks a long way off at the moment, but in our previous home game to yesterday we beat Leicester, so we can get results at CR and can play well away - how we didn't beat Newcastle, I'll never know.  It's simply still open to us if we can react to yesterday and get back to our best levels.

 

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36 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Insults? What insults? Asking whether you are six years old?  If you want to talk about insults, your first post to me said

"I don't know if you genuinely believe the crap you've come out with here or are playing up to the reputation and persona you've created around you"

Hardly a pleasant way to speak to anyone, is it?  

My thoughts are always heartfelt, there is no "persona" - I just post what I think - and in this case I think there has been too much of an over reaction. You can agree or disagree, but don't tell me it is "crap" unless you have something better to offer than to complain about so called insults that you are quite happy to give out, but can't take in return.

Perhaps I was right about the six year old thing, perhaps you do need to grow up, or at least learn to discuss reasonably on a message boad. This isn't twitter or facebook.

The content of your message is appropriately described as crap and I cannot understand your reasoning for posting it. Whether it's nice or not is entirely a matter for your own judgement. 

You have nothing factual to justify asking whether I'm six beyond being petty and vindictive in response to my manner. Engage with me. Tell me why you think you can be justified in offering excuses for yesterday. 

I make no apologies for the matter of fact way I offer my views. 

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Posted (edited)

Not a chance in hell, Lakey, we had to win to get momentum going. That was a performance of a defeated team. I said on a different thread the players played like the know those who have already left, those who know they won’t be here......no commitment to the cause.

Still is been a good season, we’ve held our own at times, beat some good teams but ultimately been found to be lacking in quality of depth. We’ve made a good load of money and blooded young players who have gained experience, value and will be better players for the experience.

Time to accept relegation and start to prepare for next year, blooding more of our youth team who will be involved.

Edited by Indy

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31 minutes ago, Indy said:

Not a chance in hell, Lakey, we had to win to get momentum going. That was a performance of a defeated team. I said on a different thread the players played like the know those who have already left, those who know they won’t be here......no commitment to the cause.

Still is been a good season, we’ve held our own at times, beat some good teams but ultimately been found to be lacking in quality of depth. We’ve made a good load of money and blooded young players who have gained experience, value and will be better players for the experience.

Time to accept relegation and start to prepare for next year, blooding more of our youth team who will be involved.

That is SO defeatist in attitude!  I can't believe that people give in when there is still a chance of winning matches - and I don't believe players have given in or know what is happening next season regarding transfers - if anything, if they are after big moves, they need to show their ability in the next few matches to encourage offers. 

The writing is on the wall, we are down unless we start winning, but there is still time - eight games is still plenty to get points to at least make the end of the season interesting.  It isn't over - if you liken it to tennis, we are two sets down and 1-5 in the final set, but the beauty of that in tennis is that you can still win from that position - as can we. Tall order, yes, but not impossible. 

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15 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

That is SO defeatist in attitude!  I can't believe that people give in when there is still a chance of winning matches - and I don't believe players have given in or know what is happening next season regarding transfers - if anything, if they are after big moves, they need to show their ability in the next few matches to encourage offers. 

The writing is on the wall, we are down unless we start winning, but there is still time - eight games is still plenty to get points to at least make the end of the season interesting.  It isn't over - if you liken it to tennis, we are two sets down and 1-5 in the final set, but the beauty of that in tennis is that you can still win from that position - as can we. Tall order, yes, but not impossible. 

 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

That is SO defeatist in attitude!  I can't believe that people give in when there is still a chance of winning matches - and I don't believe players have given in or know what is happening next season regarding transfers - if anything, if they are after big moves, they need to show their ability in the next few matches to encourage offers. 

The writing is on the wall, we are down unless we start winning, but there is still time - eight games is still plenty to get points to at least make the end of the season interesting.  It isn't over - if you liken it to tennis, we are two sets down and 1-5 in the final set, but the beauty of that in tennis is that you can still win from that position - as can we. Tall order, yes, but not impossible. 

I sometimes think it’s you that are defeatist in attitude, in not accepting the world is a sphere, we are the worst team in this premiership and we are heading down.....it doesn’t matter how much you say it’s an elephant if it a giraffe, it’s still a giraffe!👍😉

But I love this thread more than any other in the past three months....💚💛 we’ve missed you Lakey.

Edited by Indy

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Such a shame we blew it last night as other results have largely gone our way.

Changes for Everton please.

 

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6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Well, Bournemouth look worse than us.

I doubt that, we’re bottom, we were beaten by a Southampton side who could have got 5 yesterday. There’s a reason that a team finishes bottom after 38 games, 8 games to go......let’s just enjoy them for what they are, hopefully we’ll see a little more effort next game from our team.

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8 minutes ago, Indy said:

I doubt that, we’re bottom, we were beaten by a Southampton side who could have got 5 yesterday. There’s a reason that a team finishes bottom after 38 games, 8 games to go......let’s just enjoy them for what they are, hopefully we’ll see a little more effort next game from our team.

Watching them against Palace right now, already 2-0 down..they certainly do look worse.

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1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Watching them against Palace right now, already 2-0 down..they certainly do look worse.

Who’s worse Norwich 2020 or Bournemouth 2020......only one way to find out! Fight! 😉👍

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6 minutes ago, Indy said:

Who’s worse Norwich 2020 or Bournemouth 2020......only one way to find out! Fight! 😉👍

😂 Youd imagine they would end up better than us with the millions they've spent but who knows.

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12 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Such a shame we blew it last night as other results have largely gone our way.

Changes for Everton please.

 

Wouldn't say that to be honest. Brighton won and Watford drew.

OK, Bournemouth are doing their best to join us but realistically our chance has gone.

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