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Tumbleweed

Lack of money should not disguise Farke's failings

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I am not calling for Daniel Farke to be sacked. Not yet. But tonight was as embarrassing as I can recall.

I genuinely thought we had a great chance of staying up this time, and staying up well. I also actually think we have, for our funds, a good squad of players with perhaps the one exception of a physical pacy DM. We have real talent in there.

But we don't seem to be setting up to get the best out of what we have. What concerns me are the following, and that they have largely been there from day one, though the momentum we got last season disguised some of these things:

 

1. We play tactics that might suit Man City and Barcelona, but not us. Good as they are, we can't do this slow tippy play out from the back stuff all the time because as roy keane highlighted tonight we don't have the higher level of quality needed in the PL. We got caught in possession so many times tonight, but this has been happening for 3 seasons now. Why have full backs so high up when we are so prone to losing the ball cheaply? We might get away with it more in the Champs but have been horribly exposed at this level.

2. We are one paced and too slow. We are seriously slow, too ponderous against decent opposition. No surprise that Pukkis best chance tonight came from a fast direct counter attack with the ball played quickly. We have to mix it up more, the last two seasons started the same way. He has not learned that there has to be more variety. The opposition just get back and rebuild.

3. Why do we so often start games slowly and resume slowly? Does he not get fire in their bellies? Some of our worst performances have been against the poorer sides, easy to get motivated against Man City and Chelsea, but why are we so languid against so many others? I saw no sign tonight of a team "up for it" in old fashioned speak. Soton were first to every loose ball and had time and space to spare, even around our box. 

4. I don't get some of the thinking on line ups and personnel at times. Buendia having to collect balls 20M from our box when our playmaker sits on the bench. Trybull, a more exotic Gary O'Neil alongside McLean our 2020 version of Andy Hughes with the inspiration of a sleeping Carl Robinson. How on earth are Pukki and Drmic ever going to get the ball in any dangerous position when we have that partnership passing the ball slowly under pressure and often backwards? Why leave the subs so late? Why was Patrick Roberts so underused? How come Leitner seems lost and so unfavoured when he looked cultured and composed at his best? Why does Vrancic seem only to get a cameo when chasing games? Where was Hernandez when we needed some pace and direct running before the game was lost?

5. Defence. Not just the back 5 but the whole approach to defending. 3 awful goals almost out of nothing tonight, summed up by Redmond casually creating one yard out of two against Godfrey and able to pick his spot. We conceded stupid goals in the first two seasons also, just what are they coached in practice?

I like Farke. I really wish he gets it sorted. But tonight was truly abysmal and to me there were/are too many basic things which are a worry and have been for a while. Is he too stubborn? Who knows, but just how long does he get before Webber's shrewd recruitment is wasted and the new golden generation gets sold?

 Promotion last year was an amazing experience. Farke deserves time but let's not pretend that this is all down to money, some of those things above would exist regardless of budget. Webber needs to hold him to account and Farke must learn fast from what is happening if we are to challenge for promotion next year (sorry, after tonight our chances of staying up are negligible).

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Tumbleweed said:

I am not calling for Daniel Farke to be sacked. Not yet. But tonight was as embarrassing as I can recall.

I genuinely thought we had a great chance of staying up this time, and staying up well. I also actually think we have, for our funds, a good squad of players with perhaps the one exception of a physical pacy DM. We have real talent in there.

But we don't seem to be setting up to get the best out of what we have. What concerns me are the following, and that they have largely been there from day one, though the momentum we got last season disguised some of these things:

 

1. We play tactics that might suit Man City and Barcelona, but not us. Good as they are, we can't do this slow tippy play out from the back stuff all the time because as roy keane highlighted tonight we don't have the higher level of quality needed in the PL. We got caught in possession so many times tonight, but this has been happening for 3 seasons now. Why have full backs so high up when we are so prone to losing the ball cheaply? We might get away with it more in the Champs but have been horribly exposed at this level.

2. We are one paced and too slow. We are seriously slow, too ponderous against decent opposition. No surprise that Pukkis best chance tonight came from a fast direct counter attack with the ball played quickly. We have to mix it up more, the last two seasons started the same way. He has not learned that there has to be more variety. The opposition just get back and rebuild.

3. Why do we so often start games slowly and resume slowly? Does he not get fire in their bellies? Some of our worst performances have been against the poorer sides, easy to get motivated against Man City and Chelsea, but why are we so languid against so many others? I saw no sign tonight of a team "up for it" in old fashioned speak. Soton were first to every loose ball and had time and space to spare, even around our box. 

4. I don't get some of the thinking on line ups and personnel at times. Buendia having to collect balls 20M from our box when our playmaker sits on the bench. Trybull, a more exotic Gary O'Neil alongside McLean our 2020 version of Andy Hughes with the inspiration of a sleeping Carl Robinson. How on earth are Pukki and Drmic ever going to get the ball in any dangerous position when we have that partnership passing the ball slowly under pressure and often backwards? Why leave the subs so late? Why was Patrick Roberts so underused? How come Leitner seems lost and so unfavoured when he looked cultured and composed at his best? Why does Vrancic seem only to get a cameo when chasing games? Where was Hernandez when we needed some pace and direct running before the game was lost?

5. Defence. Not just the back 5 but the whole approach to defending. 3 awful goals almost out of nothing tonight, summed up by Redmond casually creating one yard out of two against Godfrey and able to pick his spot. We conceded stupid goals in the first two seasons also, just what are they coached in practice?

I like Farke. I really wish he gets it sorted. But tonight was truly abysmal and to me there were/are too many basic things which are a worry and have been for a while. Is he too stubborn? Who knows, but just how long does he get before Webber's shrewd recruitment is wasted and the new golden generation gets sold?

 Promotion last year was an amazing experience. Farke deserves time but let's not pretend that this is all down to money, some of those things above would exist regardless of budget. Webber needs to hold him to account and Farke must learn fast from what is happening if we are to challenge for promotion next year (sorry, after tonight our chances of staying up are negligible).

 

 

 

 

6, Is the ownership holding us back. 

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Completely agree. Farke is not entirely to blame but that does not mean he is blameless.

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Whilst the owners see our club as a much-loved family heirloom to be passed on to nephew Tom there's not a snowball in hell's chance that things will improve. Farke has limitations and Webber hasn't been perfect but all the time they're operating with one hand tied behind their backs buying cheap players who are simply not up to the job or who are cheap because they're sicknotes of which Byram is the latest. It will have to turn nasty to get better for the supporters of this great club. 

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Yep, I agree. 

I still back Farke for next season; he's a fantastic coach who is brilliant at developing talent, but he has been far too naive and/or stubborn in his approach too often this season. I understand he has his vision of how he wants football to be played and I appreciate how committed he is to that, but unfortunately for a smaller club in the Premier League, it's very difficult to make a success of it. He needed to sacrifice his beliefs for a bit more substance at times and grind out ugly results rather than trying to stick to rigidly to his philosophy which hasn't worked. 

I'm not saying that he should try to turn himself into Tony Pulis overnight, but we have a physically small, inexperienced squad and it needed a couple of physical players who know the league and know how to win ugly to provide a bit of balance. Obviously he isn't solely responsible for recruitment, but I'm sure that if he wanted a couple of those players, he would've got them. 

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The same flaws are evident week after week. Tonight not helped by not playing Tettey to protect the back four. It’s utterly ludicrous that every time we give the ball away the opposition are straight in on our goal.

For me though the thing that has f**ked me off so much all season is the complete inability to get them fired up, particularly after half time but also at the kick off. I think Farke is too focused on keeping players calm and composed and lacks the ability to get them really fired up. The Shef U game after half time was a prime example but it’s been happening all season and we’ve conceded so many goals and lost so many games in the first 15 minutes of the second half. The refusal to make subs just adds to it. 

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Yes Farke isn’t blameless in his tactical choices but he’s doing the best with the limited resources that have been provided to him!

The culprits for those limited resources are the owners and until Norwich fans unite and remove the inept owners, the club will always linger in mediocrity 

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But different, presumably richer, owners won't solve these things surely. A manager unable to get players fired up will still not be able to fire up more expensive players, and having your creative dynamo having to play like a DM because of the tactics won't either. We've seen from Fulham and Villa and also the Champs last season that money might actually only be a small part of it outside the top 6 or so in the Pl.

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For me the worry is that we are going to be Huddersfield 2.

I have no doubt that Webber and Farke will go on to greater things, and that they could have done better here with adequate funding. So who made the decision that this season, after the splendour of last season, we were going to try to do it without spending hardly any money? Who set that policy?

It's a good job that tonight was played behind closed doors because I think things could have turned ugly if that feeble performance had been played out in front of a full house expecting a side to be fighting for their lives.

Now, Huddersfield 2, do Webber and Farke walk away having taken us down leaving us as collateral damage as they climb the ladder while we wait an eternity for the next manager who can get us out of the Championship.

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Hard to argue that the management from Farke was anything other than poor today. 

We played with two strikers at the expense of a third midfielder, which meant we struggled to keep possession and were ripe for the picking on the break. We could have lost by 5 or 6 today. 

Fair enough, he tried something new - but we did not adapt to the flow of the game. Something had to change system-wise at half time.

Edited by HertsCanary93
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It's like Alex Neil all over again. Great start but unable to adapt. I'd love Farke to try and take us back up but only if he learns from this experience.

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1 hour ago, Tumbleweed said:

I am not calling for Daniel Farke to be sacked. Not yet. But tonight was as embarrassing as I can recall.

I genuinely thought we had a great chance of staying up this time, and staying up well. I also actually think we have, for our funds, a good squad of players with perhaps the one exception of a physical pacy DM. We have real talent in there.

But we don't seem to be setting up to get the best out of what we have. What concerns me are the following, and that they have largely been there from day one, though the momentum we got last season disguised some of these things:

 

1. We play tactics that might suit Man City and Barcelona, but not us. Good as they are, we can't do this slow tippy play out from the back stuff all the time because as roy keane highlighted tonight we don't have the higher level of quality needed in the PL. We got caught in possession so many times tonight, but this has been happening for 3 seasons now. Why have full backs so high up when we are so prone to losing the ball cheaply? We might get away with it more in the Champs but have been horribly exposed at this level.

2. We are one paced and too slow. We are seriously slow, too ponderous against decent opposition. No surprise that Pukkis best chance tonight came from a fast direct counter attack with the ball played quickly. We have to mix it up more, the last two seasons started the same way. He has not learned that there has to be more variety. The opposition just get back and rebuild.

3. Why do we so often start games slowly and resume slowly? Does he not get fire in their bellies? Some of our worst performances have been against the poorer sides, easy to get motivated against Man City and Chelsea, but why are we so languid against so many others? I saw no sign tonight of a team "up for it" in old fashioned speak. Soton were first to every loose ball and had time and space to spare, even around our box. 

4. I don't get some of the thinking on line ups and personnel at times. Buendia having to collect balls 20M from our box when our playmaker sits on the bench. Trybull, a more exotic Gary O'Neil alongside McLean our 2020 version of Andy Hughes with the inspiration of a sleeping Carl Robinson. How on earth are Pukki and Drmic ever going to get the ball in any dangerous position when we have that partnership passing the ball slowly under pressure and often backwards? Why leave the subs so late? Why was Patrick Roberts so underused? How come Leitner seems lost and so unfavoured when he looked cultured and composed at his best? Why does Vrancic seem only to get a cameo when chasing games? Where was Hernandez when we needed some pace and direct running before the game was lost?

5. Defence. Not just the back 5 but the whole approach to defending. 3 awful goals almost out of nothing tonight, summed up by Redmond casually creating one yard out of two against Godfrey and able to pick his spot. We conceded stupid goals in the first two seasons also, just what are they coached in practice?

I like Farke. I really wish he gets it sorted. But tonight was truly abysmal and to me there were/are too many basic things which are a worry and have been for a while. Is he too stubborn? Who knows, but just how long does he get before Webber's shrewd recruitment is wasted and the new golden generation gets sold?

 Promotion last year was an amazing experience. Farke deserves time but let's not pretend that this is all down to money, some of those things above would exist regardless of budget. Webber needs to hold him to account and Farke must learn fast from what is happening if we are to challenge for promotion next year (sorry, after tonight our chances of staying up are negligible).

 

 

 

 

Yes, yes, yes and yes. 

 

I vote Tumbleweed as our future manager

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I entirely disagree. No manager could compete in the premiership with a team assembled on a shoestring budget for a relegation scrap in the championship. 

As fans we over rate our current players who, week in and week out, show on the pitch that they lack the standard necessary for this league. Especially in midfield where it is men against boys in terms of physicality.
 

We have some genuine wonderkids but they are not yet the finished article and  are not yet good enough therefore to carry a team of budget championship players who over performed last season and got promoted. 
 

The buck stops with the board. Two pathetic transfer windows got us relegated before a ball was kicked. We didn’t even try to compete and other teams literally laugh at the amount we spent on promotion. 

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7 hours ago, Tumbleweed said:

But different, presumably richer, owners won't solve these things surely. A manager unable to get players fired up will still not be able to fire up more expensive players, and having your creative dynamo having to play like a DM because of the tactics won't either. We've seen from Fulham and Villa and also the Champs last season that money might actually only be a small part of it outside the top 6 or so in the Pl.

We deserve at least a chance to spend some money, we have gone up, not spent any and are completely embarrassing ourselves. 

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Defending in comparison to scoring is ‘easy’. You don’t need to be a 90million pound player to defend well. That’s why the likes of Allardyce and Pulis succeeded - drill the defences and get organised.

Im not saying we should play like an Allardyce or Pulis side but have we been working on the defensive side enough? Do we drill what we’re going to do when we lose the ball? Do we drill different scenarios and work on our shape and how far apart the centre backs should be and everyone else by reference to them? Let’s not even get started on defending set pieces.

Poor defending is very often the fault of the coaches imo. You can’t teach a striker to have a natural predator’s instinct - so if you’ve only got carthorses to work with you’re stuffed. And yes individuals will make calamitous mistakes (see David Luiz). But you can drill decent players to make them a good unit in the large part. Look at the Man City game. 

Farke and his staff certainly aren’t blameless.

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Agree with vast majority of original post. Even last season when we swept to promotion I was uneasy at aspects of Farke's management and nothing has changed. Ridiculously late substitutions, no 'variety' to our play when needed (when was the last time a player actually got to the bye line and 'stood up a cross' for a striker to HEAD the ball for once!!??), reluctance to 'use' his squad and the failure to improve our soft defence. Of course, these traits have simply carried on this season and we have been murdered for them. Sure - Farke and Webber have been woefully restricted by the financial handcuffs but the aspects outlined in these posts has NIL to do with recruitment I'm afraid.

I said several months ago that Farke might not hang around if we went down without a fight and that looks alarmingly likely after last night. I'm pretty sure he already has offers on the table back in The Fatherland and if I were him I think I'd snap one of those up PDQ before the other club 'reconsiders'! Farke will have had three years here by end of this miserable season and finds himself to all intents and purposes back to square one with a £20M (roughly) black hole to fill and (already) a posse of players ruled out for the start of the season! One could hardly blame him for taking a job back in Germany.  

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17 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

6, Is the ownership holding us back. 

The ownership holds us back only if there's a viable alternative waiting in the wings to take over. 

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There is a very fine line between 'ignore the noise, we'll do it our way' and stubbornly ignoring things you don't want to hear. I have the rumblings of concern that we may be at a juncture where there aren't any dissenters within the club with the ability to influence a change of course.

I'm all for the Norwich City identity that we've built, but the stark way in which our failings now are the same as our failings a year ago gives me pause- regardless, I am behind Farke and Webber whatever league we're in next year.

I find it difficult to comprehend that whatever data the analysts are presenting to Farke & his coaching staff lead them to believe there's no need to drill defensive positioning into the team. Look at any other side in the league, and when the ball is lost you'll see how quickly they get numbers back into compact defensive lines - even the more attacking sides, it's simply what teams at this level have to do to stay competitive. Sure, it's great to see Emi charging full pelt after their winger and flying into a swashbuckling tackle, but to paraphrase Maldini if you're defending properly then you shouldn't have to be making those tackles.

It's starting to feel a little like some of the very basic things aren't being done because we're Norwich City and we stick to our way of playing. I keep saying recently, it isn't too much to ask for attacking intent and a bit of defensive nous. I honestly believe if we calmed ourselves down and concentrated on making ourselves more sturdy we would also see a better return up the other end of the pitch- with more of the ball and not constantly under pressure, we have the players to make things happen.

 

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56 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

There is a very fine line between 'ignore the noise, we'll do it our way' and stubbornly ignoring things you don't want to hear. I have the rumblings of concern that we may be at a juncture where there aren't any dissenters within the club with the ability to influence a change of course.

I'm all for the Norwich City identity that we've built, but the stark way in which our failings now are the same as our failings a year ago gives me pause- regardless, I am behind Farke and Webber whatever league we're in next year.

I find it difficult to comprehend that whatever data the analysts are presenting to Farke & his coaching staff lead them to believe there's no need to drill defensive positioning into the team. Look at any other side in the league, and when the ball is lost you'll see how quickly they get numbers back into compact defensive lines - even the more attacking sides, it's simply what teams at this level have to do to stay competitive. Sure, it's great to see Emi charging full pelt after their winger and flying into a swashbuckling tackle, but to paraphrase Maldini if you're defending properly then you shouldn't have to be making those tackles.

It's starting to feel a little like some of the very basic things aren't being done because we're Norwich City and we stick to our way of playing. I keep saying recently, it isn't too much to ask for attacking intent and a bit of defensive nous. I honestly believe if we calmed ourselves down and concentrated on making ourselves more sturdy we would also see a better return up the other end of the pitch- with more of the ball and not constantly under pressure, we have the players to make things happen.

 

 

We did set up very solidly, focusing on the basics, retaining possession and countering in late summer/autumn of last season when we got a lot of one goal wins and shot up the table. We can play differently and Farke has shown that he can set a team up that way but for some reason his natural default is to try to play like Man City and fill the team with as many neat, technical passers as possible, just without the added quality, pace and physicality they posses. He reminds me a lot of Wenger in some ways, a great coach but probably a bit too idealistic and dogmatic for his own good. 

 

Last season as we built up confidence and found form he got braver and braver with his selections and set ups as the season got on and the narrow, controlled wins started turning into topsy turvy open games with goals galore at both ends with our quality up front usually giving us the edge and that was fine, great even for a promotion campaign but that was never going to be sustainable and shouldn't be our template approach all the time especially at this level. 

 

I don't want a change in manager obviously but I do want to see a change in the mentality and system next year.

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@Tumbleweed

Your original post is spot on in every way. There's a lot of good going on at this club, but it should not hide or cause us to overlook what's gone wrong this season.

I just wanted to see us give it a good go this season. I really don't think we've done that. 

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I believe the club needs to change its ambition of being a top 26 club to being a top 6 Championship club. The owners do not have the personal wealth to invest at the level required for the Premier League and even if they did they have made their distaste clear for the influence money has in the game so wouldn’t spend anyway. 
What is the point of getting mullard every week and spending most of the cash windfall on extravagant salaries and bonuses? The Championship is a much better competition for spectators so this is where our self-sustaining club should be focused. 
If we are promoted in the future the club should restrict wages and bonuses. If the players don’t like it flog them off and bring in lower league players who would be only too delighted to play in the EPL on the wages we would offer. Yes, we would come straight back down but so what, we do anyway.

 

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14 hours ago, Aggy said:

Defending in comparison to scoring is ‘easy’. You don’t need to be a 90million pound player to defend well. That’s why the likes of Allardyce and Pulis succeeded - drill the defences and get organised.

Im not saying we should play like an Allardyce or Pulis side but have we been working on the defensive side enough? Do we drill what we’re going to do when we lose the ball? Do we drill different scenarios and work on our shape and how far apart the centre backs should be and everyone else by reference to them? Let’s not even get started on defending set pieces.

Poor defending is very often the fault of the coaches imo. You can’t teach a striker to have a natural predator’s instinct - so if you’ve only got carthorses to work with you’re stuffed. And yes individuals will make calamitous mistakes (see David Luiz). But you can drill decent players to make them a good unit in the large part. Look at the Man City game. 

Farke and his staff certainly aren’t blameless.

Completely agree. Need to focus on defence next year, and not just look to out score opponents every game. I’m happier with a 2-0 than a 4-2 and think most managers would be.

Is it coincidence that we have a terrible defensive record and constantly have defenders getting injured? Are they being trained wrong from both tactical AND physical perspectives?

 

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