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Terminally Yellow

Let's actually talk NORWICH for once

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You are Daniel Farke. You have no injuries or players unavailable. 

What team/formation/tactics are you going to employ to save us from almost certain relegation?

And most discussion worthy - how do you think your plans differ from what you expect the real Daniel Farke to employ?

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The real Daniel Farke i hope will be slightly more on the front foot from the off and make more tactical use of the subs rather than a like for like which he seems to prefer.

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Here is 5 things I'd like to see from us in these last 9 games....

1) A back 3- I think this allows Aarons and Lewis much more freedom, potentially makes us more solid defensively and allows Godfrey to bring the ball out of defence with less concern.

2) Rupp in central midfield- I've been fairly unimpressed with Rupp so far but that in part is due to where he's been played. His energy, ball control and general tenacity could add something to our otherwise weak central midfield.

3) The real Duda- he came with a reputation for scoring goals from midfield, something we've lacked outside of Cantwell. We've yet to see this and if we don't early on then I'd say point 4 becomes more relevant....

4) More Mario- Vrancic hasn't had enough game time this season. I don't think you can pair him and Tettey but we need to find a way to get him onto the pitch.

5) Earlier subs- we've got 5 options off the bench now- no excuse to wait until the 80th minute. 

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I'd go for:


______________ Krul _____________

Aarons _ Godfrey _ Klose _ Lewis

_____________ Tettey _____________

____________ McLean_____________

__ Cantwell _ Vrancic _ Buendia __

_____________ Pukki _____________



Rationale:

We need wins, so we need goals. If we go down, go down swinging.

= Our most attacking full backs (though Byram is a really close)
= Klose for experience and ability with ball, and why not? Nothing else has been consistent or 'concentrated' enough. Godfrey for speed (though Hanley Zimm may be less error prone, so a difficult call.)
= Tettey shielding the CB's, only focus is on doing the dirty work and breaking up attacks
= McLean as he has a great attitude and is ok on the ball... haven't seen enough from Rupp for me, I feel this is our weakest position and Leitner doesn't appear to have the right mentality to be in contention sadly.
= Cantwell and Buendia pick themselves for me.  Vrancic in centre due to not seeing enough from Steipi or Duda - creatively or goal scoring. Vrancic had a run of form at a similar time of last season, can get stuck in, has got a shot on him and is our biggest threat with set pieces (did I mention we need goals?)
= Pukki is too obvious

 

Or very similar personnel but bring Zimm into a back 3, McLean drops out.

______________ Krul _____________

____ Godfrey _ Klose _ Zimm ____

Aarons __________________ Lewis

_____________ Tettey _____________

____________ Vrancic _____________

__ Cantwell ___________ Buendia __

______________ Pukki _____________



As for Farke, I feel he will start with the 4-2-3-1 formation and pick Rupp, Duda and potentially Byram for solidity. Maybe get more expansive as the game enters the final stages.

                          

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4 minutes ago, Norwich R Us said:

______________ Krul _____________


____ Godfrey _ Klose _ Zimm ____

Aarons __________________ Lewis

_____________ Tettey _____________

____________ Vrancic _____________

__ Cantwell ___________ Buendia __

______________ Pukki _____________
 

That is pretty much my choice too. Cantwell and Emi pushed forward into a front three, Vrancic pinging about as playmaker with Tettey sitting to allow Aarons and Lewis to provide width. 

I do think back three is the way to go. I just can't help but think it allows us to play our strengths. That number 10 role has been so problematic this entire season - makes sense to play a formation that doesn't use it. 

 

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Although I have to admit I would be too disappointed to see Leitner brought back into the fold. Instead of Vrancic.

Anyone else with me on that?

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1 minute ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Although I have to admit I would be too disappointed to see Leitner brought back into the fold. Instead of Vrancic.

Anyone else with me on that?

You would or you wouldn't be?

I personally don't want to see him back- he seemed to really struggle with the pace of the game at this level and became an actual weak point for teams to exploit. Add into the fact he's barely kicked a ball since January and I'd happily leave him out.

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9 minutes ago, Norwich R Us said:

Or very similar personnel but bring Zimm into a back 3, McLean drops out.


______________ Krul _____________

____ Godfrey _ Klose _ Zimm ____

Aarons __________________ Lewis

_____________ Tettey _____________

____________ Vrancic _____________

__ Cantwell ___________ Buendia __

______________ Pukki _____________


As for Farke, I feel he will start with the 4-2-3-1 formation and pick Rupp, Duda and potentially Byram for solidity. Maybe get more expansive as the game enters the final stages.                     

I also feel that 3-4-3 system is the way forward as it suits the players we have and the way we want to play.

I agree however that Farke is likely to stick with the same formation and personnel as he's incredibly loyal (and/or stubborn) so I can't see many changes, despite the lack of results up to now.

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9 minutes ago, king canary said:

You would or you wouldn't be?

I personally don't want to see him back- he seemed to really struggle with the pace of the game at this level and became an actual weak point for teams to exploit. Add into the fact he's barely kicked a ball since January and I'd happily leave him out.

Apologies - that should say wouldn't. I could see him brought back in. 

But you're right about his form - I expected him to be one of those who would flourish in the Prem. It just hasn't happened.

 

Edited by Terminally Yellow

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Just now, Terminally Yellow said:

Apologies - that should say wouldn't. I could see him brought back in. 

I get the sense he's burned bridges. I don't think it is a coincidence that his banishment started after those rumours from the Brighton game, then I remember a few comments about how the rest of the squad was with him after one of the cup games. I'd be shocked if he's still here next season. 

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3 minutes ago, king canary said:

I get the sense he's burned bridges. I don't think it is a coincidence that his banishment started after those rumours from the Brighton game, then I remember a few comments about how the rest of the squad was with him after one of the cup games. I'd be shocked if he's still here next season. 

I forgot about those rumours. I wonder what happened that day? He's a player with so much talent, but just not the work ethic. 

But then I guess if he had the work ethic he'd be playing for a side far bigger than NCFC. 

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Funny how perspectives differ.

Mo is generally quite active on social media and he's certainly kept himself as fit as possible during the break. Since we've come back he's been much more Norwich-centric again and gives the impression he's excited to be back. That tallies with something I saw Michael Bailey mention recently, that Leitner was starting to re-integrate just before everything shut down.

I think Vrancic has a lot to offer but a keyed-on Moritz Leitner could also be something of a secret weapon for us. When all is said and done, I don't believe it's either of the two ball-players' fault that they haven't hit the heights this year- that falls solely on the fact we play in a very open way, and the failure to properly strengthen the defensive portion of our midfield in the summer. Granted, ML did not help himself if reports are to be believed.

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7 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

Funny how perspectives differ.

Mo is generally quite active on social media and he's certainly kept himself as fit as possible during the break. Since we've come back he's been much more Norwich-centric again and gives the impression he's excited to be back. That tallies with something I saw Michael Bailey mention recently, that Leitner was starting to re-integrate just before everything shut down.

I think Vrancic has a lot to offer but a keyed-on Moritz Leitner could also be something of a secret weapon for us. When all is said and done, I don't believe it's either of the two ball-players' fault that they haven't hit the heights this year- that falls solely on the fact we play in a very open way, and the failure to properly strengthen the defensive portion of our midfield in the summer. Granted, ML did not help himself if reports are to be believed.

Interesting- didn't see any of that, dont follow our players on twitter generally. 

I do think Leitner does deserve some of the blame for his struggles earlier in the season though. He dwelled on the ball for far too long quite often and was easily harried and dispossessed- no defensive midfielder can stop that from happening for him.

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

Interesting- didn't see any of that, dont follow our players on twitter generally. 

I do think Leitner does deserve some of the blame for his struggles earlier in the season though. He dwelled on the ball for far too long quite often and was easily harried and dispossessed- no defensive midfielder can stop that from happening for him.

I do agree, particularly against Villa at home they clearly had his card marked and he kept making the same mistake. He doesn't seem have one of those mentalities to buckle down when it isn't going his way.

For me part of the problem lies in the fact that Tettey is limited and easy to exploit at this level, which isolates any playmaker in the middle with him and subdues their effectiveness. It's not an attack on Tettey, it's just statement of how I see it. This is why I think McLean is the usual pick in there now, as he's more robust, box-to-box and doesn't hold on to the ball like messrs Leitner and Vrancic; it also helps that his aerial duel numbers are so good relative to the rest of our team.

As I wrote on another thread, I would like to see the traditional #10 role in our team axed for a flatter 3 in centre mid to make us more stable. None of Stiepermann, McLean or Duda has found any consistent effectiveness in that advanced role and Emi/ Cantwell etc drift inside anyway- this would also allow for the Leitner/ Vrancic in the middle to let us play our passing game higher up the pitch.

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We didn't really have any bad combinations last year but I did feel that our strongest central midfield pairing was Leitner and Tettey. It was just balanced and looked so effortless. If Leitner has gotten himself up to speed and stopped sulking then he's as good an option as any.

 

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3 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

The real Daniel Farke i hope will be slightly more on the front foot from the off and make more tactical use of the subs rather than a like for like which he seems to prefer.

Agree. My only criticism of Farke is his use of subs. They have been (mostly) too late.

2 hours ago, king canary said:

Here is 5 things I'd like to see from us in these last 9 games....

1) A back 3- I think this allows Aarons and Lewis much more freedom, potentially makes us more solid defensively and allows Godfrey to bring the ball out of defence with less concern.

2) Rupp in central midfield- I've been fairly unimpressed with Rupp so far but that in part is due to where he's been played. His energy, ball control and general tenacity could add something to our otherwise weak central midfield.

3) The real Duda- he came with a reputation for scoring goals from midfield, something we've lacked outside of Cantwell. We've yet to see this and if we don't early on then I'd say point 4 becomes more relevant....

4) More Mario- Vrancic hasn't had enough game time this season. I don't think you can pair him and Tettey but we need to find a way to get him onto the pitch.

5) Earlier subs- we've got 5 options off the bench now- no excuse to wait until the 80th minute. 

Agreed with all of this. I think Rupp is decent but only as the defensive midfielder. I wouldn't play him with Tettey or Trybull as that doesn't offer enough going forward as a combination, but instead of, along with McClean / Vrancic / Leitner. Definitely.

I also wouldn't mind seeing more Leitner. He was a class apart last season. He was poor earlier this season, but that doesn't make im a bad player (I add Stiepermann to this list too. I'd like to see him play a bigger part).

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2 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

Funny how perspectives differ.

Mo is generally quite active on social media and he's certainly kept himself as fit as possible during the break. Since we've come back he's been much more Norwich-centric again and gives the impression he's excited to be back. That tallies with something I saw Michael Bailey mention recently, that Leitner was starting to re-integrate just before everything shut down.

I think Vrancic has a lot to offer but a keyed-on Moritz Leitner could also be something of a secret weapon for us. When all is said and done, I don't believe it's either of the two ball-players' fault that they haven't hit the heights this year- that falls solely on the fact we play in a very open way, and the failure to properly strengthen the defensive portion of our midfield in the summer. Granted, ML did not help himself if reports are to be believed.

Really interesting perspective. There were times at the start of this season when Leitner was getting games he looked up to it. That quickly changed, I appreciate, but I have long thought he has the ability to play in this division with ease.

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1 hour ago, All the Germans said:

Agree. My only criticism of Farke is his use of subs. They have been (mostly) too late.

Agreed with all of this. I think Rupp is decent but only as the defensive midfielder. I wouldn't play him with Tettey or Trybull as that doesn't offer enough going forward as a combination, but instead of, along with McClean / Vrancic / Leitner. Definitely.

I also wouldn't mind seeing more Leitner. He was a class apart last season. He was poor earlier this season, but that doesn't make im a bad player (I add Stiepermann to this list too. I'd like to see him play a bigger part).

I don't think he's a bad player but I think there are two things I'd say.

1) Lots of player can dominate at lower levels but struggle when they move up- he seemed to fit that mould.

2) Does he have the willingness to actually work on his game and adjust due to circumstances?

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We have to go for it, but with a calculated balance of attack and defence still.  

In terms of starters we are limited…. Those that have proved themselves effective at this level are:-

Krul,

Godfrey, Hanley, Zimm and Klose

Aarons, Lewis and Byram,

McLean, Tettey (both just about coping which isn’t enough), Buendia, Cantwell,

Pukki, Drmic, Idah. 

That’s 15 players who, on the evidence so far, can be trusted starters.   Idah perhaps is in question but deserves a chance and we can’t afford injuries or Covid!    Vrancic and Leitner for all the clamour just don’t have the pace, anticipation or strength bring out there qualities and do an adequate job in the centre of the park, especially without the backing of a quality workhorse around them.   Tettey isn’t that!   Whether Godfrey is remains in question but I wonder if it did allow us enough confidence to gamble on Vrancic or Leitner from the start?      

That leaves Vrancic, Leitner, Hernandez, Trybull, Duda, Rupp and probably Martin who represent adequate substitute options.   Sadly we are a tad light if we get any injuries.   Because MV, TT and ML haven’t been able to step up, it leaves Farke with no options but to select McLean and Tettey in the centre and they have done the best they can.   

Before we stopped there were signs of us getting to grips with this level but Buendia and Cantwell play so deep spending much time and energy in defensive duty… as does Pukki who is often chasing back in our half.  We can’t afford that anymore…. Pukki needs to play on the last man and Buendia should be freed up.   In our usual formation that would mean Cantwell and say Rupp doing that wide defensive role… if only Hernandez could guarantee to work up and down – he would be preferred to Rupp who seems limited going forward!     Buendia staying further forward.    With our defensive options now available, Godfrey would prove a better central midfield option than Tettey.   Why not try it?   

Krul

Aarons – (two of) Zimm / Hanley / Klose – Lewis

Rupp – Godfrey – McLean – Cantwell

Buendia

Pukki.

The other option is 3-5-2, again worth a go.   In that we could have Zimm, Hanley and Klose with central midfield, give us real defensive bite yet plenty of forward threat.

Krul

Zimm – Hanley – Klose

Aarons – Cantwell (Rupp) – Godfrey – McLean / Vrancic – Lewis

Buendia (Cantwell)

Pukki.  

Still believe we can do this.   OTBC

Edited by ged in the onion bag
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1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Krul

Zimm – Hanley – Klose

Aarons – Cantwell (Rupp) – Godfrey – McLean / Vrancic – Lewis

Buendia (Cantwell)

Pukki.  

Still believe we can do this.   OTBC

I really don't see Ben Godfrey ever getting a game under DF in midfield. I've seen times where Godfrey himself has been asked about it and tactfully says he just wants to play. I wonder, though, where he considers his best position to be.

Here's another question. Kenny McLean. Under DF he's played as a no 10, out wide, deeper and in central midfield. What is his best position in your view and would he get a place in your team?

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Rumours abound re Hanley and Zimmerman both out fir season so that knackers most of the teams above, hope Timm is up for it 

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1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

We have to go for it, but with a calculated balance of attack and defence still.  

In terms of starters we are limited…. Those that have proved themselves effective at this level are:-

Krul,

Godfrey, Hanley, Zimm and Klose

Aarons, Lewis and Byram,

McLean, Tettey (both just about coping which isn’t enough), Buendia, Cantwell,

Pukki, Drmic, Idah. 

That’s 15 players who, on the evidence so far, can be trusted starters.   Idah perhaps is in question but deserves a chance and we can’t afford injuries or Covid!    Vrancic and Leitner for all the clamour just don’t have the pace, anticipation or strength bring out there qualities and do an adequate job in the centre of the park, especially without the backing of a quality workhorse around them.   Tettey isn’t that!   Whether Godfrey is remains in question but I wonder if it did allow us enough confidence to gamble on Vrancic or Leitner from the start?      

That leaves Vrancic, Leitner, Hernandez, Trybull, Duda, Rupp and probably Martin who represent adequate substitute options.   Sadly we are a tad light if we get any injuries.   Because MV, TT and ML haven’t been able to step up, it leaves Farke with no options but to select McLean and Tettey in the centre and they have done the best they can.   

Before we stopped there were signs of us getting to grips with this level but Buendia and Cantwell play so deep spending much time and energy in defensive duty… as does Pukki who is often chasing back in our half.  We can’t afford that anymore…. Pukki needs to play on the last man and Buendia should be freed up.   In our usual formation that would mean Cantwell and say Rupp doing that wide defensive role… if only Hernandez could guarantee to work up and down – he would be preferred to Rupp who seems limited going forward!     Buendia staying further forward.    With our defensive options now available, Godfrey would prove a better central midfield option than Tettey.   Why not try it?   

Krul

Aarons – (two of) Zimm / Hanley / Klose – Lewis

Rupp – Godfrey – McLean – Cantwell

Buendia

Pukki.

The other option is 3-5-2, again worth a go.   In that we could have Zimm, Hanley and Klose with central midfield, give us real defensive bite yet plenty of forward threat.

Krul

Zimm – Hanley – Klose

Aarons – Cantwell (Rupp) – Godfrey – McLean / Vrancic – Lewis

Buendia (Cantwell)

Pukki.  

Still believe we can do this.   OTBC

Interesting & logical on paper. But I think it's pretty clear we won't see Godfrey starting in midfield over these 9 games. Possibly next year if he's still here. Withe the extra subs, Leitner might become prominent in the near future.

 

17 minutes ago, CANARYKING said:

Rumours abound re Hanley and Zimmerman both out fir season so that knackers most of the teams above, hope Timm is up for it 

If that's true, we are once again up $h1t creek.

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My only slight concern with a back 3/5 is that is could leave us a bit open in the middle of the park. Looking at Norwich R Us’ line up above, Tettey is very isolated - OR Vrancic (or whoever) has to sit a bit deeper to help Tettey out and then you’re very light up top. 

Our way of playing is very much possession based so I’m not sure taking out a central midfielder for a centre half works too well with that. I’m not sure our other centre halves are good enough with the ball to make it work. Yes, Godfrey could step out of the defence, but then why not play 4 at the back with two holding? If he’s in the defence you can have a ball playing centre back and a ball playing holding midfielder. If he’s in a three man defence stepping up, you have two centre halves who aren’t great with the ball and Tettey. You effectively lose a ball playing player AND you take your best ball playing centre half out of the position where he can more easily play his cross field balls.

That’s why I doubt we’ll see it.

That said, if we were throwing caution to the wind and were willing to risk Tettey being exposed then it could free up the full backs. Leitner seems like a massive shame for whatever reason. Him and Tettey, on paper, look like the best combination - as they were for much of last season.

I expect the side will look very similar to how it did before things stopped.

Edited by Aggy
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3 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I really don't see Ben Godfrey ever getting a game under DF in midfield. I've seen times where Godfrey himself has been asked about it and tactfully says he just wants to play. I wonder, though, where he considers his best position to be.

Here's another question. Kenny McLean. Under DF he's played as a no 10, out wide, deeper and in central midfield. What is his best position in your view and would he get a place in your team?

Re Godfrey, whether he does get a go in midfield is up to DF but the op asks what we would do.    Unfortunately in my opinion our failings this season have been primarily the result of inadequacy in the 2 CM positions.   We’ve simply not had the pace, power, tenacity, athleticism and skill required to be competitive enough.   Tettey and McLean have become our only trusted options and we have no one else to put in there...... except Godfrey, and we’ve not really had cover at the back (although I personally think Byram could do a job at CB better than Amadou or Tettey could).  With cover, it’s at least worth a try as it could work for us, we have nothing to lose.   
 

I would play McLean with Godfrey but if Godfrey proves more capable, it may allow us the luxury of bringing in Vrancic or Leitner instead to see if they could play with that extra cover (but I doubt it - this league seems a step too far for them, as starters at least!).    I think Vrancic would be best further forward ahead of McLean, then Duda.    Seems we can only rely on Buendia and Cantwell as Pukki’s support from the off!    
 

 

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Hasn’t Rupp and Byram played at CB as cover? If we are down Zimbo for the season that’s a blow.

We only have 9 games the next two have be two wins in reality, so they’ll probably go with the same team as beat Leicester, we started to look better and winning some games just before the break.
 

I’d certainly have to go with a 4-1-3-1-1 formation.

Aarons, Klose, Godfrey, Byram

                   Tettey

Buendia,  Vrancic     Cantwell

                    Duda
         
                    Pukki.

Edited by Indy

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8 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Re Godfrey, whether he does get a go in midfield is up to DF but the op asks what we would do.    

Absolutely, and it's really interesting the numbers that see Godfrey as a midfield option, despite only having played there in League One.  I absolutely thought he was Tettey's replacement last season. Now? I think I'd keep him in centre half.

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Krul

Aarons Godfrey Hanley Lewis

McLean Vrancic

Emi Cantwell Hernandez

Pukki

 

I always think we look more dangerous with Onel in the team, as marauding fullbacks aside - we are a very slow team by premier league standards. While he hasn't been at his best this season, having that extra pace to hit teams on the counter and get in behind is going to be useful.

That leaves us with attacking options on the bench too - with Duda & Drmic both likely to come on to chase goals in the final 20 mins. It also allows us to bring Tettey on to help us see out games, something we have been so poor at this season.

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3 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Absolutely, and it's really interesting the numbers that see Godfrey as a midfield option, despite only having played there in League One.  I absolutely thought he was Tettey's replacement last season. Now? I think I'd keep him in centre half.

If we have a fit full squad, has to be worth a go as Tettey and McLean are just about coping and we’ve nothing else.    If you’d leave Godfrey at the back who could affect the CM positively?    Rupp?   I don’t think he is talented or strong enough.
Interesting how many would have Vrancic in the team too.    Difference is Godfrey has the attributes to be effective in midfield with his strength, pace and power but Vrancic just can’t get on the ball enough and affect the game when we’re out of possession, sufficient to be a starter.   Primarily he doesn’t react quick enough and sadly Leitner is the same. 

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3 hours ago, HertsCanary93 said:

Krul

Aarons Godfrey Hanley Lewis

McLean Vrancic

Emi Cantwell Hernandez

Pukki

 

I always think we look more dangerous with Onel in the team, as marauding fullbacks aside - we are a very slow team by premier league standards. While he hasn't been at his best this season, having that extra pace to hit teams on the counter and get in behind is going to be useful.

That leaves us with attacking options on the bench too - with Duda & Drmic both likely to come on to chase goals in the final 20 mins. It also allows us to bring Tettey on to help us see out games, something we have been so poor at this season.

The Buendia, Cantwell, Hernandez trio just looks exciting. I’d love to see Hernandez back in for a go fro, the restart.

I might switch out Vrancic for Leitner but would be fine with both and would have Tettey over McLean I think.

I do sort of hope we just go for it. Get the full backs flying up the wings again, with that front four you’ve mentioned and see what happens.

I’d feel much worse if we lose the first two playing steady anyway and then open up and look better when we’re already down than if we go for it first game and get trounced. 

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