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There is now talk of reparations for slavery. Well they can fcuk off because my ancestors weren't in this country when slavery existed.

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37 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Will the pyramids be next thing to be pulled down as they were built with Egyptian slaves i believe ?

Weren't built by slaves but skilled paid labour and artisans.

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8 hours ago, sgncfc said:

The literal phrase "put on a pedestal" means "to look up to; to aspire to" or "to love or admire someone so much that they are faultless".

The legacy of the busts and statues we have goes back to Greek and Roman times - high powered individuals were lauded by likenesses being made of them, for praise and adulation.

That is what statue is, and it is generally of it's time. Those which are no longer relevant belong in a museum - they have their own history and inform us as to what perceptions were in their own times. That Colston and others like him were lauded in the late Victorian era tells us about that time but is not necessarily relevant now. What Nelson and Churchill believed and how they acted is relevant to the times they lived in - what they gave us as a nation should not be forgotten, but equally what they believed has got little to do with 2020 and how we live today.

Removing such reminders of pain for so many people is not rewriting history or denying our heritage - it is simply recognising that times change, and we make progress. The kind of progress that brave, visionary men like those would have welcomed.

 

Nelson and Churchill are lauded for what they achieved not what they believed. Holding them to a modern standard is quite frankly unfair. I doubt the beliefs of many of us will pass the standards of generations much further down the line.

If we are talking about someone who what they achieved by modern standards is now insensitive or decisive I understand and frankly agree with the argument for those statues to be moved to a museum. However I’ll never understand the notion to whitewash history of everything that doesn’t meet modern standards, there won’t be much left.

 

 

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To keep it local, I have never felt comfortable at Houghton Hall or Holkham Hall, for three reasons:

1. Their building was funded partly or fully by the proceeds of Colonial exploitation and the pillaging of our Colonies / enslavement of indigenous people in the Colonies.

2. They are an expression of too much money and vulgar taste. Clearly, the instruction to the architect was 'make it as opulent as possible'. In both cases ugly monstrosities were produced.

3. They are based on 'look at my wealth' attitudes. It makes me sick.

Blickling is fabulous beyond words, Oxburgh Hall is a delight, and the Elizabethan part of Hampton Court is my favourite building in the World, so I have no prejudice against grand buildings.

 

What got me thinking about this was mention of Churchill, as his birthplace, Blenheim Palace, is the epitome of Colonial oneupmanship and vulgar visual excess. (Chartwell is gorgeous).

 

 

 

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The Guardian (formerly The Manchester Guardian) was founded by John Edward Taylor who made his fortune in the cotton trade which, of course, relied on the import of cotton picked by slaves.  In addition his newspaper supported the Confederates during the American Civil War, so surely The Guardian should be forced to close down immediately.  I know, perhaps BLM could have a demo outside The Guardian offices and mount a sustained online campaign to shame anyone who buys the paper or who works for it.  After all, we wouldn’t want any accusations of hypocrisy would we?

 

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8 minutes ago, Pugin said:

To keep it local, I have never felt comfortable at Houghton Hall or Holkham Hall, for three reasons:

1. Their building was funded partly or fully by the proceeds of Colonial exploitation and the pillaging of our Colonies / enslavement of indigenous people in the Colonies.

2. They are an expression of too much money and vulgar taste. Clearly, the instruction to the architect was 'make it as opulent as possible'. In both cases ugly monstrosities were produced.

3. They are based on 'look at my wealth' attitudes. It makes me sick.

Blickling is fabulous beyond words, Oxburgh Hall is a delight, and the Elizabethan part of Hampton Court is my favourite building in the World, so I have no prejudice against grand buildings.

 

What got me thinking about this was mention of Churchill, as his birthplace, Blenheim Palace, is the epitome of Colonial oneupmanship and vulgar visual excess. (Chartwell is gorgeous).

 

 

 

In that case you should feel uncomfortable about any historical church, abbey or castles as most were funded by crusades robbing and killing masses in holy wars, taxing the poor and exploitation of everyone, history shows how humans are totally unwilling to tolerate and live peacefully....we could go on, but where do you draw the line? As others said, entire cities and pretty much the country we now call Great Britain was built on history of exploitation of the globe!

The thing is we have moved on, it’s History and should stay there, a reminder that to evolve we need to learn from the past not bury it. Bury it and it has a nasty habit of coming round again.

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3 minutes ago, Indy said:

In that case you should feel uncomfortable about any historical church, abbey or castles as most were funded by crusades robbing a killing masses in holy wars, taxing the poor and exploitation......we could go on, but where do you draw the line? As others said, entire cities and pretty much the country we now call Great Britain was built on history of exploitation of the globe!

The thing is we’ve moved on, it’s History and should stay there, a reminder that to evolve we need to learn from the past not bury it.

Much more eloquently put than my rambling attempt Indyo.  I was usually  looking out of the window  during classes . Got  in trouble for diverting my essays to Angling adventures at places I wanted to fish.  In Primary School I had the best teacher ever, he was also school headmaster.  Would abandon classes to take us all up the disused railway line  on a nature walk , and he  would turn up late for school because he'd  been    taking up his bank lines and the tide was a little later than he'd  planned. We made hooch from Sugar Beet, not sure where that disappeared to 🎓.  Bumped into him in Stalham Swan during the big snow 85/6 was it,  when I was in my twenties,had a few pints together  and he got a spin back to Sea Palling in the snow from the local bobbies in the  Norfolk Constabulary  Land Rover. Legend.  No wonder I didnt ' get' proper school.

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26 minutes ago, Indy said:

In that case you should feel uncomfortable about any historical church, abbey or castles as most were funded by crusades robbing and killing masses in holy wars, taxing the poor and exploitation of everyone, history shows how humans are totally unwilling to tolerate and live peacefully....we could go on, but where do you draw the line? As others said, entire cities and pretty much the country we now call Great Britain was built on history of exploitation of the globe!

The thing is we have moved on, it’s History and should stay there, a reminder that to evolve we need to learn from the past not bury it. Bury it and it has a nasty habit of coming round again.

I always think it always does come round and round again. For me that's what history amounts to. 

 

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3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I always think it always does come round and round again. For me that's what history amounts to. 

 

That is true nutty, thus humanity doesn’t learn and probably never will.

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49 minutes ago, Pugin said:

To keep it local, I have never felt comfortable at Houghton Hall or Holkham Hall, for three reasons:

1. Their building was funded partly or fully by the proceeds of Colonial exploitation and the pillaging of our Colonies / enslavement of indigenous people in the Colonies.

2. They are an expression of too much money and vulgar taste. Clearly, the instruction to the architect was 'make it as opulent as possible'. In both cases ugly monstrosities were produced.

3. They are based on 'look at my wealth' attitudes. It makes me sick.

Blickling is fabulous beyond words, Oxburgh Hall is a delight, and the Elizabethan part of Hampton Court is my favourite building in the World, so I have no prejudice against grand buildings.

 

What got me thinking about this was mention of Churchill, as his birthplace, Blenheim Palace, is the epitome of Colonial oneupmanship and vulgar visual excess. (Chartwell is gorgeous).

 

 

 

Pretty much every property owned by the National Trust or English Heritage was built by people who became fabulously wealthy by exploiting someone......

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1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

However I’ll never understand the notion to whitewash history of everything that doesn’t meet modern standards,

I don't think anyone is actually suggesting that; we're just talking about putting some statues in a museum.

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48 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

I don't think anyone is actually suggesting that; we're just talking about putting some statues in a museum.

Then you aren’t listening to some of the more radical voices and I literally said I was all for that before the bit you selectively quoted.

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1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

I don't think anyone is actually suggesting that; we're just talking about putting some statues in a museum.

If this is genuine then fine, lets do it but realise there might be a heck of a lot of work to do. This can is a lot bigger than the one that has worms in it.

Life is one big hypocrisy and none of us are immune. There will come a time when people say, I agree but . . .

 

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I think now is the time for people to stop calling Ipswich and their fans as Scum. It isn't a nice word, Binners etc is very good but their supporters are no different from ours in wanting to support their own club.

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1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

I think now is the time for people to stop calling Ipswich and their fans as Scum. It isn't a nice word, Binners etc is very good but their supporters are no different from ours in wanting to support their own club.

Fair enough on the supporters, but as the club (and town) are a bit scummy can we still ITFC scum? (And by corollary the supporters scum supporters, or the SS for short?)

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Good to see a full on culture war kicking off, complete with misinformation and conclusion jumping.

The Inbetweeners was taken off Youtube today, causing outrage and accusations of snowflakes wanting it taken down. Turns out it has been taken down as Britbox have bought the rights to it, rather than any manufactured outrage.

God I hate this all.

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12 minutes ago, king canary said:

Good to see a full on culture war kicking off, complete with misinformation and conclusion jumping.

The Inbetweeners was taken off Youtube today, causing outrage and accusations of snowflakes wanting it taken down. Turns out it has been taken down as Britbox have bought the rights to it, rather than any manufactured outrage.

God I hate this all.

It's not helpful. I had to point out on social media the other day, there was a post with 30 odd comments of hate and anger because there was a news article about Dads Army being taken off iPlayer or whatever.

The article was posted by a parody, satirical news site called the Daily Dafty.

None of the 30 odd comments had even noticed they were getting angry about a fake news piece that advertises itself as being a fake, p*ss take article.

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On 09/06/2020 at 09:38, king canary said:

The Colston stuff goes far beyond a statue too- plenty of roads, buildings and schools named after him in Bristol. While I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of 'mob justice' I can also see that the statue should have been taken down years ago. Also there was a campaign to get another plaque added explaining his involvement in the slave trade- which one of the Tory councilors was so incensed by he suggested vandalism to cover it up. Wonder how he feels now....

Buildings and schools named after him because he paid for them!

 

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Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

Buildings and schools named after him because he paid for them!

 

Great. He's dead now. Change them.

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20 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

There is now talk of reparations for slavery. Well they can fcuk off because my ancestors weren't in this country when slavery existed.

Bit of a cheek bearing in mind that most were caught and sold by other Africans. Who is it that pays the reparations? The West African countries? 

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1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Buildings and schools named after him because he paid for them!

"An extraordinary effort has taken place over recent weeks to wipe out painful reminders of Jimmy Savile. But can you erase all trace of a reviled person?

Plaques have been taken down, buildings renamed, street signs removed, two charities closed.

A footpath in Scarborough was Savile's View. Now the sign has gone. His freedom of the borough will be suspended.A wall commemorating high-profile citizens in Leeds Civic Hall has had the inscription of Savile's name removed.

Officials are under immense pressure to take action.

Having said three weeks ago they would not change the name of Savile's Hall conference centre in Leeds, owner Royal Armouries International announced a change of mind this week at a cost of £50,000."Sir Jimmy's name and reputation are irrevocably tainted  and we have to remove every trace," the managing director said.

A wooden statue in Glasgow has gone, as has a memorial plaque at the DJ and broadcaster's former Scarborough home. It had been defaced with "paedophile" and "rapist". The Royal Marines training centre at Lympstone will have its Savile Room renamed. A photo and nameplate have already gone. A newspaper talked of them having "destroyed all remnants of the TV star".

At Jimmy Savile's grave, there is no gravestone. It was removed by his family and destroyed. Two charities named after him are closing. The BBC has removed from its Desert Island Discs database a 1985 episode in which Savile says he got into running dance halls in order to get girls.

While some of the erasures are said to be temporary, pending the outcome of the investigation into the welter of allegations of sexual abuse against him, it is hard to imagine the honours returning." November 2012

 

I expect your protests at such action were loud and vociferous, Teemu

 

 

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18 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

I always think it always does come round and round again. For me that's what history amounts to.

You may be getting muddled up with the History Channel, old chap 😉

 

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Where were the FLA when these statues were torn down? One rule for them, one rule for us etc etc,😀

The sculptor behind the widely-mocked Cristiano Ronaldo sculpture ...

Ted Bates | Cristiano Ronaldo bust & 11 other strange & terrible ...

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39 minutes ago, Herman said:

Where were the FLA when these statues were torn down? One rule for them, one rule for us etc etc,😀

The sculptor behind the widely-mocked Cristiano Ronaldo sculpture ...

Ted Bates | Cristiano Ronaldo bust & 11 other strange & terrible ...

Its remarkable. If they weren't outside football grounds would anyone recognise them? I didn't realise Ted Bates had encephalitis and his wife didn't press his clothes.

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Who would have thought that statues of slavers, mass murderers, pirates and thieves had so much popularity. What does that say about the UK as a country and these people as individuals? Clearly the Colston statue should have been rehomed years ago to be put into a contextual setting. That it wasn't is one to the root causes of it being pulled down in such a manner. We should now rehouse all similar statues, not to erase our history but to understand it better and move forward.

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Anne Wafula Strike, says she is the only black on representative boards in sport.

She asks who will represent black athletes?

Surely if we are all the same apart from skin colour, then it doesn't matter. I'm not sure if positive discrimination is the answer. It won't stop someone from hating someone else.

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4 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Should we remove Penny Lane from the Magical Mystery Tour?

Lets stop teaching history in Schools as well.

 

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48 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Lets stop teaching history in Schools as well.

I think it might be an idea to start teaching it.

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