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54 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

That's because I didn't call you racist, nor ever intended to imply it. What I have said in response to your asking for suggestions how we tackle racism is to just stop being racist. I suggested it isn't that hard - a large portion of people go their entire lives without once being racist.

In later posts, I suggested that generations that have gone before are responsible for a lot of our problems. Again, this is not a go at you, just an observation. 

For what it's worth, I agree with your comment that generations gone by have much greater levels of respect and tolerance than those of my and younger generations.

And FYI I'm the sort of person that will call you a racist if I think you are a racist. Even in your naivety you would not miss that. 

Sorry for misinterpreting your comments terminally yellow, I thought those comments were aimed at keelansgrandad. To both of you I apologise

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22 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Wont say it a third time. 👍

Ah I don't mind.😀

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That's because I didn't call you racist, nor ever intended to imply it. What I have said in response to your asking for suggestions how we tackle racism is to just stop being racist. I suggested it isn't that hard - a large portion of people go their entire lives without once being racist.

In later posts, I suggested that generations that have gone before are responsible for a lot of our problems. Again, this is not a go at you, just an observation. 

For what it's worth, I agree with your comment that generations gone by have much greater levels of respect and tolerance than those of my and younger generations.

And FYI I'm the sort of person that will call you a racist if I think you are a racist. Even in your naivety you would not miss that. 

Thank you for clearing that up

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2 hours ago, Bill said:

yeh, it was just coincidence that the same harassment didn't happen to those from South Africa, Zimbabwe, Australia, Canada etc

 

Did people from those countries turn up in large numbers for the rebuild after the war? Was it the same immigration system they arrived under? Would those from South Africa and Zimbabwe not have been predominantly black anyway? You’re using whataboutery and distraction to avoid debating the points made....again 

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So, it wasn't a 'call to the colours' with old soldiers gathering to protect threatened war memorials - but an organised campaign by yet another shady right wing group

"It has attracted more than 40,000 members on Facebook since 4 June, and despite being set up with the stated aim of protecting monuments, explicitly racist language has gone unchecked on the Facebook page and some of the other administrators have expressed support for Ukip and anti-Islam web pages.

Posts on the Facebook page included one stating:There is no black in the union jack”, and another claiming a race war was imminent. Some posts, including discussing destroying mosques, had been deleted by either a group or a Facebook administrator but the users had been allowed to remain as active members."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/16/priti-patel-linked-with-monument-protection-campaign-organiser

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16 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Ignoring of course numerous examples as have been highlighted in the past of organisations such as the police, where white candidates have been overlooked in favour of other races in order to bring up the levels of diversity, or even in the football league where clubs have to interview at least one candidate from an ethnic minority for any coaching post around the first team. Are these examples of racism also and should be stopped? 

As I’ve said I’ve no doubt there are racist people, but I simply don’t believe the system or our institutions are racist. You’ve no statistics to prove otherwise, merely anecdotal stories

Black trainee vicar denied job at "white" church

this is an example of racism in our institutions

 

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" I simply don’t believe the system or our institutions are racist. You’ve no statistics to prove otherwise, merely anecdotal stories "

I doubt there are many, if any, who don't see the sheer stupidity of that nonsense

as anyone with half a brain knows insidious racism runs through so many of our institutions - and as a white person I have seen it so many times, and in so many forms

however that experience appears not to be valid, it would seem, as I did not compile a list

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2 hours ago, Bill said:

So, it wasn't a 'call to the colours' with old soldiers gathering to protect threatened war memorials - but an organised campaign by yet another shady right wing group

"It has attracted more than 40,000 members on Facebook since 4 June, and despite being set up with the stated aim of protecting monuments, explicitly racist language has gone unchecked on the Facebook page and some of the other administrators have expressed support for Ukip and anti-Islam web pages.

Posts on the Facebook page included one stating: “There is no black in the union jack”, and another claiming a race war was imminent. Some posts, including discussing destroying mosques, had been deleted by either a group or a Facebook administrator but the users had been allowed to remain as active members."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/16/priti-patel-linked-with-monument-protection-campaign-organiser

It was for some, stop tarring all with the same brush.

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27 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

It was for some, stop tarring all with the same brush.

To be honest it was fairly obvious what it was going to be- it was linked to Tommy Robinson, the EDL and the FLA well before it happened. You'd have to be hugely naive to go along thinking it wouldn't be a mainly far right **** up.

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49 minutes ago, king canary said:

To be honest it was fairly obvious what it was going to be- it was linked to Tommy Robinson, the EDL and the FLA well before it happened. You'd have to be hugely naive to go along thinking it wouldn't be a mainly far right **** up.

It happened independently all over the country, the majority of the people involved are linked to none of those you have mentioned and probably despise them as much as anybody.

What happened in London may well (almost certainly was !!) exactly as you are saying, but that does not mean it was the same everywhere.  

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So where did they pick up the false narrative from ?

Why, when questioned, did they all seem to trot out the same story.

One act of vandalism does not make a campaign - and why did those who we are led to believe not part of the thuggery not leave, when it was clear what was happening and that the statue and cenotaph were protected.

Where was any act of similar vandalism around that area on that day - or anywhere since ?

It was little more than a response to the idea that some believe that we are equal.

 

ps perhaps those innocents might care to organise a protest in response to so many ex servicemen about to be tipped out on the streets. Odd, how it’s a bit quiet on that front

 

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29 minutes ago, Bill said:

So where did they pick up the false narrative from ?

Why, when questioned, did they all seem to trot out the same story.

One act of vandalism does not make a campaign - and why did those who we are led to believe not part of the thuggery not leave, when it was clear what was happening and that the statue and cenotaph were protected.

Where was any act of similar vandalism around that area on that day - or anywhere since ?

It was little more than a response to the idea that some believe that we are equal.

 

ps perhaps those innocents might care to organise a protest in response to so many ex servicemen about to be tipped out on the streets. Odd, how it’s a bit quiet on that front

 

Are you talking to me ?

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We have seen instances over the years where issues become binary. And these protests have aroused the same emotions.

If you turn up to protect the statues, it will be assumed you are a Robinson sympathiser. And not all the Protesters are just there because of social media.

It is becoming if you aint with us you are agin us. And that isn't quite justified and detracts from the reason for the outrage, which was Police brutality, particularly against black citizens.

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"If you turn up to protect the statues"

about as credible as Cummings driving to test his eyesight

There was no threat to any war memorials (or statues) - those who were there, were hellbent on attacking BLM protesters, No one with any decency would have stayed after they witnessed what was happening.

And please drop this guff that being an ex-serviceman makes you into some kind of latter day saint, It does not, nor should they be above criticism.

Moving on, lets have a look at today batch of patriotic 'memorial guarders

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/glasgow-protests-refugee-far-right-arrests-police-a9571941.html

This is them trying to attack a demonstration protesting about the treatment of refugees. Peaceful march until attacked by rightwing thugs - or should I refer to them as 'memorial guards' ?

 

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20 minutes ago, Bill said:

"If you turn up to protect the statues"

about as credible as Cummings driving to test his eyesight

There was no threat to any war memorials (or statues) - those who were there, were hellbent on attacking BLM protesters, No one with any decency would have stayed after they witnessed what was happening.

And please drop this guff that being an ex-serviceman makes you into some kind of latter day saint, It does not, nor should they be above criticism.

Moving on, lets have a look at today batch of patriotic 'memorial guarders

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/glasgow-protests-refugee-far-right-arrests-police-a9571941.html

This is them trying to attack a demonstration protesting about the treatment of refugees. Peaceful march until attacked by rightwing thugs - or should I refer to them as 'memorial guards' ?

 

I'm afraid there are issues with both sides of this needless argument Bill. I know for a fact that there were genuine ex service men and women at the War Memorial in Truro.

Yes, I think the military could be seen to be loyalists and right wing. So you could argue they were there because of their beliefs.

But as someone who believes that BLM has virtue, as someone who has been to Remembrance Services and has a son in the military, I would not hesitate in resorting to violence to stop anyone trying to desecrate any War Memorial.

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8 hours ago, Bill said:

"If you turn up to protect the statues"

about as credible as Cummings driving to test his eyesight

There was no threat to any war memorials (or statues) - those who were there, were hellbent on attacking BLM protesters, No one with any decency would have stayed after they witnessed what was happening.

And please drop this guff that being an ex-serviceman makes you into some kind of latter day saint, It does not, nor should they be above criticism.

Moving on, lets have a look at today batch of patriotic 'memorial guarders

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/glasgow-protests-refugee-far-right-arrests-police-a9571941.html

This is them trying to attack a demonstration protesting about the treatment of refugees. Peaceful march until attacked by rightwing thugs - or should I refer to them as 'memorial guards' ?

 

Nobody is pretending to be any kind of latter day saint and nor did I suggest that, you moron.

And of coursenobody should be above criticism. You should know that more than anybody as you are criticised continually on here for your pathetic outbursts and ramblings. 

You are selectively picking out the worst of what happened without acknowledging the full story. I completely understand that much of what some decent guys were trying to do has been hijacked by thugs. Read what I wrote about the guys in Liverpool applauding and shaking hands with the BLM protestors. You won't mention that though, will you ? Doesn't fit in with your agenda.

You're a vile, bitter and twisted little old man with a hugely over-inflated opinion of himself. That's why people on here think of you as they do.

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8 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

I'm afraid there are issues with both sides of this needless argument Bill. I know for a fact that there were genuine ex service men and women at the War Memorial in Truro.

Yes, I think the military could be seen to be loyalists and right wing. So you could argue they were there because of their beliefs.

But as someone who believes that BLM has virtue, as someone who has been to Remembrance Services and has a son in the military, I would not hesitate in resorting to violence to stop anyone trying to desecrate any War Memorial.

That is all fine but...who was threatening to desecrate war memorials?

A couple of morons gratified one during the London protest. It doesn't then follow that BLM and their supporters were on a concerted effort to deface war memorials or tear down statues.

To my untrained eye the 'statue defenders' outside of London largely look like a bunch of middle aged, overweight blokes living out a bit of a hero fantasy, hoping for a couple of protestors to show up so they can talk about how they bravely defended a statue of someone they've probably never heard of. It also led to laughable situations like the blokes infront of the George Eliot statue in Nuneaton- as if BLM would be looking to tear down and deface statues of pioneering, left wing female authors.  

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3 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

You're a vile, bitter and twisted little old man with a hugely over-inflated opinion of himself. That's why people on here think of you as they do.

yes, you must be inundated with pm's

curious though that it is the same names who post as you do - and make that similar claim, much as hand crank used to do, before that mantle was taken up by another who just happened to pop up fully formed with the same anger

otherwise I am far from the picture you paint, years of working in comedy may have left me with warped take on life, but never to the point where I would feel the need to post up such anger

maybe you should get in contact with wcockcanary, you have much in common, perhaps more than others might think

otherwise have a nice day..... and don't get yourself so wound up - not good for the old ticker

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I've had a few PMs about you, yes.

Nice to see you playing your favourite "you have multiple log-ins" card again though - the forum wouldn't be the same without it. You really fail to understand that there are a number of people on here who feel the same about you - your only defence appears to be to try and convince yourself that they are all the same person. 

I posted in anger because of your warped views, where you choose to ignore facts which don't fit in with your agenda.

And you say you were a comedian ?  -  don't make me laugh 😁

 

 

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1 minute ago, Mark .Y. said:

I've had a few PMs about you, yes.

Nice to see you playing your favourite "you have multiple log-ins" card again though - the forum wouldn't be the same without it. You really fail to understand that there are a number of people on here who feel the same about you - your only defence appears to be to try and convince yourself that they are all the same person. 

I posted in anger because of your warped views, where you choose to ignore facts which don't fit in with your agenda.

And you say you were a comedian ?  -  don't make me laugh 😁

Nope, not accusing you of anything, bar pointing out the similarities you have to other names on here

Still involved in comedy - and I doubt I would ever want to make your sort laugh..... never was into the frilly shirt and black bowtie stuff (and that kind of material)

But feel free to post up the facts, or opinions as per usual, that I have ignored.

Like the number of pm's you have received saying how much everyone hates me.... etc

Or better still post up something relevant to the thread and put me on ignore

I shan't miss you... and who knows, your blood pressure might be the better for it 😊

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Ha-ha, frilly shirt and black bowtie stuff - you couldn't be further from the truth. I don't believe you are a comedian anyway.

It seems to me that you are completely ignoring the fact that around the country, many non-racist veterans decided that they would not like to see local war memorials vandalized/covered in graffiti - given what had happened in London. This they did - in a peaceful way, often interacting with local marchers. Very likely, of course, that many of the memorials would not have been touched but they are almost "sacred ground" to many veterans and it wasn't a chance they were prepared to take.

This is completely relevant to the thread and is why I posted it.

I would not discuss my PMs with you, enough to say that I have received a number higher than 5 - which counts as "a few" to me.   

 

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That is all fine but...who was threatening to desecrate war memorials?

A couple of morons gratified one during the London protest. It doesn't then follow that BLM and their supporters were on a concerted effort to deface war memorials or tear down statues.

To my untrained eye the 'statue defenders' outside of London largely look like a bunch of middle aged, overweight blokes living out a bit of a hero fantasy, hoping for a couple of protestors to show up so they can talk about how they bravely defended a statue of someone they've probably never heard of. It also led to laughable situations like the blokes infront of the George Eliot statue in Nuneaton- as if BLM would be looking to tear down and deface statues of pioneering, left wing female authors.  

Surely if Cummings hadn't

Surely if George Floyd hadn't

Surely if the Police hadn't

Surely if the Protesters in Bristol hadn't

Surely if the Hooligans in Trafalgar Square hadn't

All these events have led us to where we are now. No-one is going to admit they did things they shouldn't have done. He started it will be the excuse for any hooliganism.

The point I was trying to make was that there are ways to do things and if you decide to do it outside of the law then don't expect sympathy and step back behind the law. And as I said, if I caught someone, anyone, desecrating a War Memorial, I would turn nasty.

Personally, while agreeing with the sentiment of the BLM movement, at this time they should not be marching around the streets. The rest of us are observing the guidelines for a reason.

 

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3 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

Ha-ha, frilly shirt and black bowtie stuff - you couldn't be further from the truth. I don't believe you are a comedian anyway.

It seems to me that you are completely ignoring the fact that around the country, many non-racist veterans decided that they would not like to see local war memorials vandalized/covered in graffiti - given what had happened in London. This they did - in a peaceful way, often interacting with local marchers. Very likely, of course, that many of the memorials would not have been touched but they are almost "sacred ground" to many veterans and it wasn't a chance they were prepared to take.

This is completely relevant to the thread and is why I posted it.

I would not discuss my PMs with you, enough to say that I have received a number higher than 5 - which counts as "a few" to me.   

 

I guess I'd just love to know why all these people were convinced their war memorials were under threat after one (very hihg profile) monument getting some graffiti-ed by some unrepresentative morons.

As you say many of these folks may be patrotic, total non racists who are just very protective of war memorials. However I don't think it is a huge leap to suggests many of them would have been sharing a space with far right thug types who fancied a scrap and were probably very disappointed when they didn't get it.

 

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I guess I'd just love to know why all these people were convinced their war memorials were under threat after one (very hihg profile) monument getting some graffiti-ed by some unrepresentative morons.

As you say many of these folks may be patrotic, total non racists who are just very protective of war memorials. However I don't think it is a huge leap to suggests many of them would have been sharing a space with far right thug types who fancied a scrap and were probably very disappointed when they didn't get it.

Your argument isn't really a balanced one. If the Protesters saw these unrepresentative morons (how many until they become representative?) doing what they were doing, why didn't they stop them? The same morons climbing the cenotaph and trying to set alight the Union flag. Why did no-one stop them?

The racist mob on the other side were breaking the law. Why weren't they arrested? Perhaps the Police had been told not to provoke people who were trying to provoke others. Why?

As soon as the Churchill statue, a British Bulldog symbol if nothing else, was attacked, and then the Cenotaph, why wouldn't Memorials, seen as a symbol of Britain's colonial past, be seen as an easy target by the far right? Even officialdom seemed concerned to protect many of them.

History will be written of these events and it has to be balanced. It can't be written to suit one side of the story.

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16 minutes ago, king canary said:

I guess I'd just love to know why all these people were convinced their war memorials were under threat

 

I think you will find the answer here

"Posts on the Facebook page included one stating: “There is no black in the union jack”, and another claiming a race war was imminent. Some posts, including discussing destroying mosques, had been deleted by either a group or a Facebook administrator but the users had been allowed to remain as active members.

The group promoted a gathering at the Cenotaph in London at the weekend despite the authorities urging people not to come to the city to protest."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/16/priti-patel-linked-with-monument-protection-campaign-organiser

This was exactly what was seen. A cal to the right to show up in force,. That was taken as a signal to attack those deemed not pro white. And having listened to the muddle headed guff from various ex servicemen it was fairly clear why they had answered the call' And would suggest that call came from various websites/forums to were members of.

And if there were any ex servicemen who turned up unaware that it was to be a far right rally. then they are as much part of the problem as those they associated with. Both willing to listen to lies and misrepresentation, and act o that deceeit.

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23 minutes ago, king canary said:

I guess I'd just love to know why all these people were convinced their war memorials were under threat after one (very hihg profile) monument getting some graffiti-ed by some unrepresentative morons.

As you say many of these folks may be patrotic, total non racists who are just very protective of war memorials. However I don't think it is a huge leap to suggests many of them would have been sharing a space with far right thug types who fancied a scrap and were probably very disappointed when they didn't get it.

 

I guess that as the Cenotaph is probably the highest profile monument of it's type in the country, it's not a great leap to imagine that others might be attacked by similar unrepresentative morons.

I am not in any way trying to pretend there were not right wing thugs around, I am just trying to provide some balance. 

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15 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

History will be written of these events and it has to be balanced. It can't be written to suit one side of the story.

It is in part what the protest is about. History has been written and portrayed from one very biased side.

The attempts to redress this have been met by what we say in Whitehall on Saturday, those very uncomfortable, and strongly opposed to any light being put on that history.

The same has been played out in the Middle East where uneducated fools have been duped into believing what some 'mad mullah' has told them, and are willing to use violence against reasoned argument

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4 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

I am not in any way trying to pretend there were not right wing thugs around, I am just trying to provide some balance. 

No, you are trying to portray the peacefully rally as being equally to blame - hence your weasel words

Never mind, have a try at spinning this

 

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28 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I guess I'd just love to know why all these people were convinced their war memorials were under threat after one (very hihg profile) monument getting some graffiti-ed by some unrepresentative morons.

As you say many of these folks may be patrotic, total non racists who are just very protective of war memorials. However I don't think it is a huge leap to suggests many of them would have been sharing a space with far right thug types who fancied a scrap and were probably very disappointed when they didn't get it.

Your argument isn't really a balanced one. If the Protesters saw these unrepresentative morons (how many until they become representative?) doing what they were doing, why didn't they stop them? The same morons climbing the cenotaph and trying to set alight the Union flag. Why did no-one stop them?

The racist mob on the other side were breaking the law. Why weren't they arrested? Perhaps the Police had been told not to provoke people who were trying to provoke others. Why?

As soon as the Churchill statue, a British Bulldog symbol if nothing else, was attacked, and then the Cenotaph, why wouldn't Memorials, seen as a symbol of Britain's colonial past, be seen as an easy target by the far right? Even officialdom seemed concerned to protect many of them.

History will be written of these events and it has to be balanced. It can't be written to suit one side of the story.

When history is written of what happened here, a bit of grafiti is barely going to warrant a footnote. 

As Bill says, history has constantly been written to reflect one side of the story- take the plaque on the Colston statue- 'one of our wisest and most virtuous sons.' Hardly a balanced view of a man who made a lot of money from selling people into slavery.

I can't comment on why or how people didn't stop those who chose to grafiti monuments. But I know plenty of people who are fervent BLM supporters with zero interest in defacing war memorials. 

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