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Kenny Foggo

Norwich Players taking "a knee"

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Up to them.

I would encourage the players to look at all the facts and the arguments and come to a decision based on them. What they would be doing would be deeply symbolic and should be done only after considerable thought and not as an Instagram gimmick

 

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No from me, I don't understand why the UK protests for a US domestic issue. 

Would only make sense to me if it were an American player doing it for the benefit of American TV audiences, but we don't have any American players. 

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28 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Entirely up to them - would 100% support them if they decided to. 

This.

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I was about to say I can't see why anyone wouldn't want our players to make their own decision on it but there's already been one person disputing that so nevermind.

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41 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

No from me, I don't understand why the UK protests for a US domestic issue. 

Would only make sense to me if it were an American player doing it for the benefit of American TV audiences, but we don't have any American players. 

Domestic issue?   Racism is a world wide problem - and what sparked this was one of the worst things you will ever see - a black man lying on the floor being taunted to stand up by a cop while having his neck pinned to the ground.  If you have seen the full version it is repulsive, inhuman and desperate.  No wonder the US is having riots, not just from black people either.   

Also, there is big premier league interest in the US so if players do take a knee so shows solidarity and support for the issue from the UK. The more the racism exposed for what it is the better. 

 

 

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58 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

No from me, I don't understand why the UK protests for a US domestic issue. 

Would only make sense to me if it were an American player doing it for the benefit of American TV audiences, but we don't have any American players. 

Get your head out of your a**e.

It happened in America, sure, but it's a huge, no massive, global issue.

Also, people living in a democracy can support whatever they like. That includes standing up for incredibly important humanitarian, global issues they believe should be addressed.

But I suppose that also means they can post any old attention seeking sh*t on internet forums too.

You genuinely never cease to amaze me. 

Edited by Flying Dutchman

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they could just kneel

or would that not be hip, Daddio ?

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39 minutes ago, Flying Dutchman said:

Get your head out of your a**e.

It happened in America, sure, but it's a huge, no massive, global issue.

Also, people living in a democracy can support whatever they like. That includes standing up for incredibly important humanitarian, global issues they believe should be addressed.

But I suppose that also means they can post any old attention seeking sh*t on internet forums too.

You genuinely never cease to amaze me. 

Good to see you supporting freedom of speech.

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I would like it if they did. What is going on in America, our closest ally, is clearly not right. Solidarity. 

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1 hour ago, Flying Dutchman said:

 

But I suppose that also means they can post any old attention seeking sh*t on internet forums too.

You genuinely never cease to amaze me

Careful Dutchmano, the second line would seem to some to be a compliment, especially those with a taste for attention. Could easily be misconstrued by those with an Ego driven personality to read...... ' he thinks I'm amazing.  '  

I prefer...... ' you are an idiot mate and the fact that you think what you think only makes my beliefs stronger'...... less wriggleroom for those of an argumentative nature. 

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44 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

Good to see you supporting freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, it allows us to see who the dangerous people are. Then neutralise them.

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1 hour ago, Flying Dutchman said:

Get your head out of your a**e.

It happened in America, sure, but it's a huge, no massive, global issue.

Also, people living in a democracy can support whatever they like. That includes standing up for incredibly important humanitarian, global issues they believe should be addressed.

But I suppose that also means they can post any old attention seeking sh*t on internet forums too.

You genuinely never cease to amaze me. 

Did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning? 

The OP asked a question, seeking opinions, they possible answers essentially amount to "yes" or "no" and your ridiculous response above seems to suggest that you have insufficient emotinally maturity to tolerate reading one of those answers. How very open minded and tolerant of you. 

Should Premier League players make gestures as acts of solidarity with the oppression of the Uighar in China (suspected organ harvesting) the Rohingya people in Burma (hundreds of thousands left stateless), the white farmers being murdered in South Africa, the treatment of Roma people throughout Eastern Europe and Italy, the Albinos in Sub-Saharan Africa, the Native Americans, the Aboriginals in Australia, homosexuals in Russia, the Kurds in Turkey and the Palestinians in Gaza? 

Perhaps they could grandstand for a different oppressed or mistreated group every week, or it only acceptable to act like the 51st state and involve ourselves in American politics? 

Or perhaps Premier League should largely remain apolitical, just as it almost always has been, instead of being used as a political vehicle to influence other countries domestic politics, we have the BBC World Service for that, you pathetic whiny virtue signalling pr*ck. 

I don't really care if an individual player decides to do a salute, it's a free country (apart from when you don't like somebodies opinion of course), hope they do it out of conviction rather than for Instagram likes though. Most of the youngsters seem to care mostly about money and followers. 

Sorry but if I see Todd Cantwell doing a 'salute' and then posting a photo of it on his insta I'm going to cringe. Each to their own. How many of them are ever concerned that their designer trainers may be produced in third world sweatshops by 12 year old children? 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten
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1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

Domestic issue?   Racism is a world wide problem - and what sparked this was one of the worst things you will ever see - a black man lying on the floor being taunted to stand up by a cop while having his neck pinned to the ground.  If you have seen the full version it is repulsive, inhuman and desperate.  No wonder the US is having riots, not just from black people either.   

Also, there is big premier league interest in the US so if players do take a knee so shows solidarity and support for the issue from the UK. The more the racism exposed for what it is the better. 

 

 

100% 🎯

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1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

Domestic issue?   Racism is a world wide problem - and what sparked this was one of the worst things you will ever see - a black man lying on the floor being taunted to stand up by a cop while having his neck pinned to the ground.  If you have seen the full version it is repulsive, inhuman and desperate.  No wonder the US is having riots, not just from black people either.   

Also, there is big premier league interest in the US so if players do take a knee so shows solidarity and support for the issue from the UK. The more the racism exposed for what it is the better.

Yes I'm fully aware that the video was horrific, that it was clearly a murder, and that America has a problem with racially motivated police brutality. 

Those riots seem to have hijacked by anarchists though, and I'm not sure burning down the local corner shop, trashing your local library and smashing your neighbours car is very conducive to improving the lives of the people living in your community. 

I can't remember any players making political gestures when Mark Duggan or Charles Dr Menezes were killed by police in this country and I'm not sure why people are suddenly so keen for football to become a political platform or used for political grandstanding by footballers, most of whom know less about current affairs than Joey Barton and many of whom probably couldn't even name the leader of the opposition. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten
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3 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Yes I'm fully aware that the video was horrific, that it was clearly a murder, and that America has a problem with racially motivated police brutality. 

Those riots seem to have hijacked by anarchists though, and I'm not sure burning down the local corner, trashing your local library and smashing your neighbours car is very conducive to improving the lives of the people living in your community. 

I can't remember any players making political gestures when Mark Duggan or Charles Dr Menezes were killed by police, and I'm not sure why people are suddenly so keen for football to become a political platform or for political grandstanding by footballers, most of whom know less about current affairs than Joey Barton.

I agree with this. It's sad to see shops that are owned by black residents etc being looted and destroyed. 

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35 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I agree with this. It's sad to see shops that are owned by black residents etc being looted and destroyed. 

It was the same with the Tottenham riots here, started as genuine anger / an at least partially valid protest, then got hijacked by people who just wanted to destroy stuff and loot.

It's a shame though because it undermines the actual protest, the one I could morally support prior to it becoming anarchy. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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31 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning? 

The OP asked a question, seeking opinions, they possible answers essentially amount to "yes" or "no" and your ridiculous response above seems to suggest that you have insufficient emotinally maturity to tolerate reading one of those answers. How very open minded and tolerant of you. 

Should Premier League players make gestures as acts of solidarity with the oppression of the Uighar in China (suspected organ harvesting) the Rohingya people in Burma (hundreds of thousands left stateless), the white farmers being murdered in South Africa, the treatment of Roma people throughout Eastern Europe and Italy, the Albinos in Sub-Saharan Africa, the Native Americans, the Aboriginals in Australia, homosexuals in Russia, the Kurds in Turkey and the Palestinians in Gaza? 

Perhaps they could grandstand for a different oppressed or mistreated group every week, or it only acceptable to act like the 51st state and involve ourselves in American politics? 

Or perhaps Premier League should largely remain apolitical, just as it almost always has been, instead of being used as a political vehicle to influence other countries domestic politics, we have the BBC World Service for that, you pathetic whiny virtue signalling pr*ck. 

I don't really care if an individual player decides to do a salute, it's a free country (apart from when you don't like somebodies opinion of course), hope they do it out of conviction rather than for Instagram likes though. Most of the youngsters seem to care mostly about money and followers. 

Sorry but if I see Todd Cantwell doing a 'salute' and then posting a photo of it on his insta I'm going to cringe. Each to their own. How many of them are ever concerned that their designer trainers may be produced in third world sweatshops by 12 year old children? 

This actually makes little sense.

Sure, it sounds really good and super 'high horse', but there's not really much there that's relevant to both yours, and following up my, original points. You seem to have gone over the top in a bid to win a game of top trumps.

Shocking to grasp, I know, but back to the actual points at hand, eh?

You CLEARLY suggested other countries should not protest a so-called domestic USA issue. Which this is not. 

This is based heavily around a global issue, arguably one of the longest ongoing global issues in history.

Also, many (all?) of our own domestic leagues have supported causes relating directly to the racial issues on display here. 'Kick it out' being the most prominent.

And the stuff you say is absolutely drenched in irony, like particular highlights of:

How very open minded and tolerant of you. 

you pathetic whiny virtue signalling pr*ck. 

Have you read some of the stuff you post? Your lack of self awareness is terrifying. 

Despite your very odd distraction, my original point still stands. This is NOT a domestic issue, this is a global issue. Not having American player is irrelevant, racism hits all societies and nationalities, if players believe enough to take a stand then fair play to them.

People like you saying they ACTIVELY 'dont want to see that' relating to this sort of thing is absolute madness.

On a side note, I'm really annoyed at myself, I did so well in not biting to ridiculous posts for so long. This has reminded me why I need to be better at that. I mean I probably shouldn't have even bothered with this one, but allow me to be aware of that slip, just this once.

So thanks, ish.

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3 hours ago, hogesar said:

I was about to say I can't see why anyone wouldn't want our players to make their own decision on it but there's already been one person disputing that so nevermind.

Just to clarify, I wouldn't say "that player shouldn't do a solidarity salute, he should be banned or fined", absolutely not.

I just said "not for me",  if Todd Cantwell from Dereham, aspiring trap rapper who puts on a fake accent when in Hackney, does a salute and then posts a photo of it on social media with an attempt at writing an accompanying political statement.... that would be new levels of cringe and ridicule, we don't need it. 

I'm also concerned that there may be some blurred lines here. Support for victims of police brutality and the friends and family of George Floyd, and highlighting an ongoing issue, that's fine. I'm sure that would be the intent, and of course I wouldn't object (although my point remains, we do seem to pick and choose the things that we feel deserve a platform, which footballers protested the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?). 

But the riots have got so destructive and been hijacked by all sorts of far left groups and anarchists that I don't want people to be seen to be supporting violence on the other side. That's why I think football should remain as apolitical as possible. 

I'm also surprised that nobody has pointed out that these various anarchist groups and anti-Trump groups are probably doing a fantastic job of spreading coronavirus right now, and no doubt the Trump Administration will get the blame when their grandparents all start dropping dead in a few weeks? 

Can we be seen to support the abandonment of social distancing? Go and look at photos of the protests in New York, the epicentre of coronavirus in the USA! 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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5 minutes ago, Flying Dutchman said:

You CLEARLY suggested other countries should not protest a so-called domestic USA issue. Which this is not. 

I don't think the inhabitants of any country should be out protesting right now, I think they should all be indoors instead of spreading coronavirus, destroying their neigbours property and ultimately killing each others grandparents. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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18 minutes ago, Flying Dutchman said:

People like you saying they ACTIVELY 'dont want to see that' relating to this sort of thing is absolute madness.

If you have to make up quotes I don't see the point in attempting a response. I actually said "not for me", I didn't say it shouldn't be allowed or that I'd be particular bothered if I saw it. Although I did say I would cringe if Todd Cantwell did it. You were just playing the poster and not the post, and now you are making things up. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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May not be a popular opinion but no. There are two key issues at the heart of these protests, but the fundamental one with all due respect is not race. It’s a militarized police who too often act without any restraint. And then that police force applying excess use on force on citizens accused of committing crimes. That is where the race element comes in. Yes black citizens are arrested in greater numbers, but they are also convicted in greater numbers and they are also sentenced to much longer terms. And often having been convicted are denied the vote. 

So it’s broader than root out the racists, it’s about overall police reform. The previous administration understood this and issued a set of guidelines that talked about changing the culture of policing from “warriors to guardians” 

It’s the culture we expect and largely enjoy with UK police, and there are very many good US police too, but institutionally too many US politicians have become enamored with more and more physical resource being thrown at the police rather than encouraging them to engage with their community. 

If you develop a culture of “us v them” then bad things happen. As we have seen and will continue to see until US voters decide to kick the “party of law and order” out of office at every level and can start this thing over. 
 

Meanwhile, fine if the players want to take a kneel. If it encourages the younger generation of Americans to vote - historically they too often stay away - then it will achieve something more than any virtue signaling. 

Edited by Surfer
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10 minutes ago, Surfer said:

May not be a popular opinion but no.

Don't worry mate, its only me that's not allowed to have an unpopular opinion. 

I wholeheartedly agree with your post though. 

I'll also add that the huge numbers of black people in American jails is largely down to Bill Clinton and his war on drugs / three strikes crime bill.  Democrats don't seem willing to accept that fact, and I'm surprised the Obama administration didn't do more to try and reduce the prison population.

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

especially those with a taste for attention

The irony of that comment coming from somebody who made 311 posts on here in May. 

Oh and... 98 from me, before you count. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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10 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I'll also add that the huge numbers of black people in American jails is largely down to Bill Clinton and his war on drugs / three strikes crime bill.  Democrats don't seem willing to accept that fact.

It's true enough. And the current presidential candidate Joe Biden has been guilty of that too. But we need to choose between the lessor of two evils and that choice is very clear. Also people change, and culture does too. I don't see that the American public's attitude is the same today than when those policies were enacted. There will always be a very strong thread of authoritarian respect for law and order in such a rural and religious country. Whether it becomes the majority in large part depends on politicians who try to exploit it and media who propagandize it. This is the current test, it's clear "be a strongman" thinking is in the minority at the moment, witnessed by these massive peaceful protests, but lots of coverage of looting and military on the streets could flip that once more. 

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3 minutes ago, Surfer said:

It's true enough. And the current presidential candidate Joe Biden has been guilty of that too. But we need to choose between the lessor of two evils and that choice is very clear. Also people change, and culture does too. I don't see that the American public's attitude is the same today than when those policies were enacted. There will always be a very strong thread of authoritarian respect for law and order in such a rural and religious country. Whether it becomes the majority in large part depends on politicians who try to exploit it and media who propagandize it. This is the current test, it's clear "be a strongman" thinking is in the minority at the moment, witnessed by these massive peaceful protests, but lots of coverage of looting and military on the streets could flip that once more. 

The reality is that they don't choose between various degrees of left and right like we do. The Conservatives move along the spectrum from centre-right to 'right', and Labour move from centre-left to 'left', the Lib Dems usually occupy the centre. 

The Democrats are probably as conservative as our Conservative Party, its as if they get to choose between Conservatives or Farage-era UKIP at every election. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

The Democrats are probably as conservative as our Conservative Party, its as if they get to choose between Conservatives or Farage-era UKIP at every election. 

You understand the situation very well TVB.

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1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning? 

The OP asked a question, seeking opinions, they possible answers essentially amount to "yes" or "no" and your ridiculous response above seems to suggest that you have insufficient emotinally maturity to tolerate reading one of those answers. How very open minded and tolerant of you. 

Should Premier League players make gestures as acts of solidarity with the oppression of the Uighar in China (suspected organ harvesting) the Rohingya people in Burma (hundreds of thousands left stateless), the white farmers being murdered in South Africa, the treatment of Roma people throughout Eastern Europe and Italy, the Albinos in Sub-Saharan Africa, the Native Americans, the Aboriginals in Australia, homosexuals in Russia, the Kurds in Turkey and the Palestinians in Gaza? 

Perhaps they could grandstand for a different oppressed or mistreated group every week, or it only acceptable to act like the 51st state and involve ourselves in American politics? 

Or perhaps Premier League should largely remain apolitical, just as it almost always has been, instead of being used as a political vehicle to influence other countries domestic politics, we have the BBC World Service for that, you pathetic whiny virtue signalling pr*ck. 

I don't really care if an individual player decides to do a salute, it's a free country (apart from when you don't like somebodies opinion of course), hope they do it out of conviction rather than for Instagram likes though. Most of the youngsters seem to care mostly about money and followers. 

Sorry but if I see Todd Cantwell doing a 'salute' and then posting a photo of it on his insta I'm going to cringe. Each to their own. How many of them are ever concerned that their designer trainers may be produced in third world sweatshops by 12 year old children? 

Did you ever Google some stuff to make a point, get carried away, forget what you were on about but just post it anyway?

You really do continue to be an irrelevant pr!ck don't you, TVB.

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A conversation around the issue of racism, no matter how it’s framed, is never going to be free of emotion or objective IMO. 

That’s why it didn’t take long for the level of the conversation to descend to - essentially racism is bad. Like this isn’t something that probably a good 90% plus of the UK population and a far greater % of the US population than people give credit for agree on.

There is so much going on here, people have highlighted the massive institutional problems in US law enforcement, the deep unfair racial lines of sentencing, add the cultural history of the US and it’s African American population and it’s not a simple subject. Plus now a minority of protesters are rioting and undermining the protest.

Ultimately people can do what they want, it’s a largely free country, and showing solidarity to your fellow man is an idea I can get behind.

However this is a far more complex issue than mere racism or even what I would say is the clear murder of one individual. The same specific cultural and institutional issues do not really exist in this country, certainly not to anywhere near that level, and I would suggest most British people have no real understanding of the complexities of what is actually happening in the US and why.

 

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