freedom of speech as practiced by very few journalists

[Yellow Fever 3,767]

14 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

That is very true, and clearly there have been serious issues with some branches of Christianity in more recent times.  But by and large in most western countries religion, government and the legal system have been separated and the Bishops and Archbishops have far less influence than they did 300 years ago.  That’s not the case in almost all Islamic countries where the law is very often based on the principles of Sharia which is itself based on a very literal interpretation of the Koran.  Given that starting point it’s hardly surprising that those countries, and many Muslims in other countries, are intolerant of other faiths or of any criticism of their own, because that is exactly what their religion teaches them.

Our very own blasphemy laws where only rescinded in 2008 (England) and Scotland in (2021). Up to then it seems we weren't so tolerant after all! 

[Naturalcynic 629]

28 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Our very own blasphemy laws where only rescinded in 2008 (England) and Scotland in (2021). Up to then it seems we weren't so tolerant after all! 

Certainly it’s true that the blasphemy law in England was only abolished in 2008 (2021 in Scotland) but the last person to be imprisoned was in 1921 and the death penalty was removed in the mid 1600s.  Along with many other laws that remain on the statute books, it had become largely an irrelevance.  That said, blasphemy laws are very much in existence in many other countries.  

Unfortunately in the UK the blasphemy law has been replaced by the even more contentious and intolerant concept of hate crime which is often used as a pretext by zealots to stifle criticism of their beliefs.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Naturalcynic

[Yellow Fever 3,767]

27 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Certainly it’s true that the blasphemy law in England was only abolished in 2008 (2021 in Scotland) but the last person to be imprisoned was in 1921 and the death penalty was removed in the mid 1600s.  Along with many other laws that remain on the statute books, it had become largely an irrelevance.  That said, blasphemy laws are very much in existence in many other countries.  

Unfortunately in the UK the blasphemy law has been replaced by the even more contentious and intolerant concept of hate crime which is often used as a pretext by zealots to stifle criticism of their beliefs.

Isn't it still the law in NI ?

Mary Whitehouse and others used that law (or at least tried too) as late as 2005.

I frankly see all religions as much the same - methods for small c conservatives to control or hold back the more forward thinking population - Turkey comes to mind recently (as does Iran). Religions equally fade and/or become more tolerant as people become educated, women especially. Many such 'Islamic' countries are indeed moving slowly forward with one or two notable exceptions. Note that a tradition is not the same as religion. 

The enemy are the fundamentalists within any and all religions.

[horsefly 4,297]

 

3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I actually disagree with this that it's only Islam. It's all religions.

I don't think that religious zealots have changed much at all of any tribe - I can point out the Hindu/Islam frictions in India for instance. Religion is simply used by whatever ill educated majority to impose their views on the minority. Us and them human nature being what it is.

What has happened largely in the West but also Japan etc is that religion has ceased to be an important consideration in secular societies. Frankly most educated peoples of any notional religion don't really have a problem with others of differing views. It's how you treat each other not what you internally wish to believe (or more likely impressed upon you as child) that matters. 

Let's not forget the fundamentalist Christians in America who have bombed abortion clinics and murdered medical staff. Even in this country Christian zealots persecute women seeking abortions, and harass gay people (even to the extent of subjecting homosexuals to the torture of conversion therapy).

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

Speaking of old laws, does anyone else remember the awesome case when Turkish president Erdogan tried getting a German satirist, Jan Böhmermann in court under a very old German lese-majeste law?

Best bit was, it was SO OBVIOUS from the skit that Böhmermann was deliberately showing how the German constitution distinguished what was legitimate and what was not, and explained it literally JUST BEFORE the offending poem!

And Erdogan took the bait hook, line, and sinker!

Edited August 14, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[horsefly 4,297]

5 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I always think a strength but today a weakness with Islam is that Muhammad was literate and wrote down his thoughts. Hence you can debate what he meant (with a 7th century progressive mindset) but the words are absolute.

I think that needs qualifying a bit. I'm not quite  sure what the relevance is of pointing out "the words are absolute". As you rightly say yourself "you can debate what he meant", but that is precisely the only thing of real import. This, of course, holds equally true of all texts in all religions. The differences in the various Muslim sects all centre on interpretation, and in that respect they don't differ from any other sects in any other religion. As you point out, it is fundamentalism that is the problem (something that is not only true of religions but also fanatical political movements too, and something brilliantly lampooned in The Life of Brian). Fundamentalists of all stripes assume that their interpretation of a text is the only valid interpretation and all others are the work of apostates and heretics. Fundamentalism is the real enemy. Interestingly the US has currently far more to fear from right-wing Christian fundamentalism than it does from Islamic fundamentalism.

[Herman 9,754]

19 minutes ago, horsefly said:

 

Let's not forget the fundamentalist Christians in America who have bombed abortion clinics and murdered medical staff. Even in this country Christian zealots persecute women seeking abortions, and harass gay people (even to the extent of subjecting homosexuals to the torture of conversion therapy).

They are getting involved over here  pumping dark money into their favoured causes and interfering into our way of life, the Charlie Gard and Archie Battersby for example

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

They are getting involved over here  pumping dark money into their favoured causes and interfering into our way of life, the Charlie Gard and Archie Battersby for example

Not to mention the likes of Turning Point. Wouldn't be too surprised if Jacob Rees-Mogg is financed by them to some extent either.

[Herman 9,754]

27 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Not to mention the likes of Turning Point. Wouldn't be too surprised if Jacob Rees-Mogg is financed by them to some extent either.

I suppose the reemergence of conversion therapy, as previously mentioned, in the leadership debates is purely coincidence too.

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

41 minutes ago, Herman said:

I suppose the reemergence of conversion therapy, as previously mentioned, in the leadership debates is purely coincidence too.

Maybe homophobia should be classified as a mental illness that requires conversion therapy? 😉

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

Oh, wait. Mentioned the Erdogan case earlier. Here's the poem that kicked it off. The English subtitles give enough of the gist, but are not perfect.

Oh yeah, and just make sure it's not shown on the Internet. 😉 

Jan Böhmermann - Erdogan Gedicht (Jan Boehmermann Erdogan poem) (English subtitled) on Vimeo

[Yellow Fever 3,767]

15 hours ago, horsefly said:

I think that needs qualifying a bit. I'm not quite  sure what the relevance is of pointing out "the words are absolute". As you rightly say yourself "you can debate what he meant", but that is precisely the only thing of real import. This, of course, holds equally true of all texts in all religions. The differences in the various Muslim sects all centre on interpretation, and in that respect they don't differ from any other sects in any other religion. As you point out, it is fundamentalism that is the problem (something that is not only true of religions but also fanatical political movements too, and something brilliantly lampooned in The Life of Brian). Fundamentalists of all stripes assume that their interpretation of a text is the only valid interpretation and all others are the work of apostates and heretics. Fundamentalism is the real enemy. Interestingly the US has currently far more to fear from right-wing Christian fundamentalism than it does from Islamic fundamentalism.

Actually I made a common mistake - everybody assumes that Muhammed 'wrote' the Koran but it appears he didn't!

The earlier part likely predates him! The latter parts (more oppressive) when he was empire building are collated after his death from his witnesses. In many ways it's as questionable a document as the Christian bible as to its accuracy and true roots.

However, the fact that the Koran is taken literally as word for word true and unchangeable whatever the historical facts is the burden Islam must shoulder until such time as Islamic scholars can openly question its veracity. 

So yes fundamentalism in all forms from any religion is the problem but I think Islam has today a bigger problem due to the heavily embedded beliefs as to the assumed absolute veracity / infallibility of the Koran. In that they are no different to any Christian sect that also takes the bible 'literally' and beyond an open questioning mind.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,542]

22 hours ago, horsefly said:

 

Let's not forget the fundamentalist Christians in America who have bombed abortion clinics and murdered medical staff. Even in this country Christian zealots persecute women seeking abortions, and harass gay people (even to the extent of subjecting homosexuals to the torture of conversion therapy).

Unsavoury as it is, I don't think it's comparable to what happened with Rushdie.

Rushdie, a private individual in another country exercising his rights to express himself as he wishes, was handed a death sentence by a political/religious figure in another country, that has resulted in numerous private individuals across the planet actively engaging in attempting to assassinate both Rushdi and anyone else involved in the publication of his work, in some cases successfully. The only common deonominator among those globally who have sought to carry out Khomenei's wishes is their religion. 

Much the same with Charlie Hebdo. This is effectively a form of religious law that is effectively overruling all domestic law in a way that is not replicated by any other religion in modern times. 

[Mr Apples 1,320]

Speaking of freedom of speech, I've got tickets for (the recently cancelled at the Embra Fringe) Jerry Sadowitz in October.

Apples

[Herman 9,754]

37 minutes ago, Mr Apples said:

Speaking of freedom of speech, I've got tickets for (the recently cancelled at the Embra Fringe) Jerry Sadowitz in October.

Apples

If it is the joke I've read it is rough but you don't go to a Sadowitz gig for an easy listen. I'm not sure what the venue was up to??

[Mr Apples 1,320]

If anyone actually bought a ticket for JS and was so offended they had to walk out it's a win-win. 🤣

Can't wait.

Apples

[littleyellowbirdie 2,542]

41 minutes ago, Herman said:

If it is the joke I've read it is rough but you don't go to a Sadowitz gig for an easy listen. I'm not sure what the venue was up to??

The irony is that I'd never heard of him until the venue cancelled his show. Now I'm curious. I bet I'm not the only one either. 

[Herman 9,754]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The irony is that I'd never heard of him until the venue cancelled his show. Now I'm curious. I bet I'm not the only one either. 

He had his own TV show once. It didn't last long.😀

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Julian Assangres Lawyers are preparing a case in the US courts for illegal spying on him via a Spanish outfit similar to that of the Integrity Initiative propagandists here. They have been breaching his privacy and that of his legal team and those who visited him by installing spyware on behalf of their US paymasters.

If one has not heard of it is that it is not in your public interest to hear of the caniving and psychological torture that has been happening to the greatest journalist ever, inside the Ecudorian embassy and in Belmarsh hell. Nils Melzer in his book 'THE TRIAL OF JULIAN ASSANGE'  ISBN-13: 978-1-83976-624-4

describes how the usually normal assistance given to UN rapporteurs who visit prison, changed into authoritarian harassment, deliberate delay tactics to cut down the time he and his two eminent doctors were allocated to see and speak to Julian.

One can only recommend what is right in international law, the dualist approach shown by Judge Arbuthnot and Magistrate Baraitser dare not appear in print or is seen to show the duplicit approach underlying this whole cocked up extradition attempt.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Saturday saw thousands of supporters link arms around Westminsters two bridges and surround it in support for Julian Assange freedom from his politically motivated charges.

Here is some coverage from a very popular news organisation on this site.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/julian-assange-supporters-protest-against-us-extradition-in-london-dc-crucial-that-we-fight

and another eye witnes who witnessed linking arms around Westminster......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDp64xX2TaY