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Van wink

FA Cup set to return

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On 29/05/2020 at 21:53, Graham Paddons Beard said:

UK Football will collapse if this season doesn’t restart.

I’ll wait for the factual reasoning behind that , including practical financial analysis on how many clubs in the lower leagues that will DEFINITELY “Collapse” directly as a result of the Premier League season not restarting , and exactly how the money filters (or in this case DEFINITELY will not filter) down to these clubs .  

 

 

It is true and not true. The Premier League pays £400m a year to the EFL but £260m of that  goes to the potentially nine clubs receiving parachute  payments (the number of such clubs might be less in any one season).

So the other £240m is split between perhaps 63 to 65 clubs, at an average of  a bit under £4m, with from memory clubs down in League 2 getting perhaps £500,000.

I suspect it is true that some clubs, certainly down in League One and League Two, could not survive without that money, and probably in the Champinship as well, but then many clubs in the Championship have quite deliberately lived beyond their means, so there is a moral argument as to whether they should be saved by EPL money anyway.

But suppose righteous clubs need this EPL money, or its equivalent. The money supporting the EPL clubs, particularly the clubs that are pretty much always going to be there, is staggering. It is in the billions of pounds.

There is no doubt that if they wanted to the EPL clubs could survive if the season was scrapped and they lost out on TV money, with still money over to filter down the pyramid. It would just need more altruism than the EPL or the major clubs have so far shown.

Edited by PurpleCanary
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10 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

 

There is no doubt that if they wanted to the EPL clubs could survive if the season was scrapped and they lost out on TV money, with still money over to filter down the pyramid. It would just need more altruism than the EPL or the major clubs have so far shown.

This is really my point . That UK Football will collapse without a restart is An extreme used to fuel an agenda. 
 

No clubs in the Prem will collapse without a restart , and neither will the majority of championship clubs. 
 

Clubs in leagues 1 and 2 are more vulnerable- but on the basis that their leagues will not fully restart , if at all, “football restarting” is a moot point . 
 

There is still more than enough money sloshing around the game, or losses being underwritten, to bail these teams out if needed. As you say it just needs to set aside contracts and be more altruistic. 
 

But a collapse? No football ? Ever again? Absolute rubbish. Even if several clubs failed there will be new or existing Salford’s of this world to take their place by moving up the pyramid. 
 

Maybe we will see more Tranmere Rovers 2020 ? 
 

Football is never going to collapse . 

 

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The PL is both the problem and the solution, get rid of the parachute payments and all clubs in the EFL are in a better position to survive.   

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10000 fans from each team being discussed for the FA Cup final at Wembley.

Roughly half our season ticket holders.

Imagine effectively tossing a coin to see whether you're allowed in to see an FA Cup final?!

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I can't really understand the rush to complete the FA Cup. Although the 2020-21 competition will start in August 2020 or thereabouts, the 8 clubs concerned won't start their next FA cup campaigns until January 2021 (if then!), so theoretically the 2019-20 final could be played at any time up to December 2020. Why not get the league sorted out, and then see how we are doing, and stage the last 3 rounds when crowds - hopefully -  are allowed again.

For me, Norwich being in the FA cup final (or even semi-finals) at Wembley, without having a chance to be there, almost makes me not care if we lose to Man U in the QF.

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1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Get rid of the parachute payments and three clubs in the EFL will go bust every year.

Don't understand that.

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1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

10000 fans from each team being discussed for the FA Cup final at Wembley.

Roughly half our season ticket holders.

Imagine effectively tossing a coin to see whether you're allowed in to see an FA Cup final?!

How many corporates?

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21 hours ago, Harry53 said:

This is my 3rd season as a supporter so have never experienced the jubilation of being  at  Wembley supporting the lads. I am pleased i at least saw us win the Championship last season but it would be sods law if we get to Wembley and i never get to experience it. 

Maybe start with the joys of Preston away.

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23 minutes ago, DraytonBoy said:

Don't understand that.

The three clubs relegated from the Premier League would go bust. 

If you get rid of the parachute payments, there would be two possible consequences:

- The three relegated clubs would have a high possibility of either folding or going into administration every year.

- The bottom 10/12 in the Premier League, i.e. all bar those with no chance of being relegated, would have to slash their wage bill and playing budget in order to make sure they didn't fold upon relegation. This would make it almost impossible to compete with the big clubs and they'd get pummelled most weeks, thus widening the gap between the big six and the rest.

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15 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

The three clubs relegated from the Premier League would go bust. 

If you get rid of the parachute payments, there would be two possible consequences:

- The three relegated clubs would have a high possibility of either folding or going into administration every year.

- The bottom 10/12 in the Premier League, i.e. all bar those with no chance of being relegated, would have to slash their wage bill and playing budget in order to make sure they didn't fold upon relegation. This would make it almost impossible to compete with the big clubs and they'd get pummelled most weeks, thus widening the gap between the big six and the rest.

Why would the three relegated clubs go bust, they'd simply have to make ends meet by selling players and cutting the wage bill which is surely fairer than just being given £50 million? Is it any surprise the clubs currently 2nd and 3rd in the Championship both received tens of millions in parachute payments this season?  

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11 minutes ago, DraytonBoy said:

Why would the three relegated clubs go bust, they'd simply have to make ends meet by selling players and cutting the wage bill which is surely fairer than just being given £50 million? Is it any surprise the clubs currently 2nd and 3rd in the Championship both received tens of millions in parachute payments this season?  

Why do the parachute payments exist, if it were possible to survive simply by selling players and cutting the wage bill, especially considering most of the players will be on lucrative long term contracts?

Parachute payments aren't just a free gift of £40m for the sake of it. The Premier League and EFL wouldn't just hand that sort of money over if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

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14 minutes ago, DraytonBoy said:

Why would the three relegated clubs go bust, they'd simply have to make ends meet by selling players and cutting the wage bill which is surely fairer than just being given £50 million? Is it any surprise the clubs currently 2nd and 3rd in the Championship both received tens of millions in parachute payments this season?  

It is nowhere near as easy as that. Small- and medium-sized clubs relegated from the EPL would see an instant fall in income of at least £100m, going from something like £125m to £25m. There would have to be a gigantic firesale, with buying clubs offering much less than the players were worth because the selling club would be desperate for cash.

And if players contemplating joining the club in the summer transfer window before their EPL season knew their wages would be slashed right back upon relegation then they would probably join another club.

I don't disagree about the unfairness of the parachute payment system, and it could be slowly scaled back a bit. But scraping it altogether could only happen if there was a radical reshaping of the whole financial structure, with a savage implementation of FFP and perhaps a salary cap. Which is all very unlikely.

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I'm not suggesting scrapping it in one go but over say three years, the idea was good but the size of the payments is now huge compared to even five years ago, Norwich could receive close to £50 million next season if they go down which is a massive advantage over the rest of the Championship.

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Anyone any idea on what the Culture Secretary is doing regarding his affirmation that something is happening finance wise for all football.

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13 minutes ago, DraytonBoy said:

I'm not suggesting scrapping it in one go but over say three years, the idea was good but the size of the payments is now huge compared to even five years ago, Norwich could receive close to £50 million next season if they go down which is a massive advantage over the rest of the Championship.

I see where you are coming from... but the reason for the payments is to protect the integrity of the EPL. As unfair as it already is, clubs need to sign players to a contract, and the better ones will not do so if the contract is not competitive in wages or offers no security after a relegation.

So typically these funds are already tied up. A few clubs might be “lucky” in having a group of players w/o long term contracts and they in theory could leverage these funds to buy more players but that’s unusual. Perhaps the proof of unfairness is the percentage of clubs that get immediately promoted - this has been quite low recently, albeit WBA and Fulham are second and third, but Stoke, Swansea, Cardiff, Huddersfield, Hull and Middlesbrough can hardly manage to be top half of the table. 

The solution is a wage cap, but then focus may shift to other compensation like sponsorships, and the other solution is a closed shop with no relegation. The good news is that ranked on average attendance we are 20th in England so we would be “in” along with Leeds of course. 

Edited by Surfer

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1 hour ago, DraytonBoy said:

Why would the three relegated clubs go bust, they'd simply have to make ends meet by selling players and cutting the wage bill which is surely fairer than just being given £50 million? Is it any surprise the clubs currently 2nd and 3rd in the Championship both received tens of millions in parachute payments this season?  

You need to consider this all in much more detail.   You’re responding to comments suggesting that without payments there would be limited competition.   That is true and the gap would widen more.  If promoted teams (and for the same reasons those who fear relegation) don’t invest, it is harder to compete.    If you do invest, ie spend on players and then get relegated it’s not so easy to offload failed players and clubs are stuck having to pay the wages or sell at a loss.
Solution would need to be a complete change of system including players having to pay their agents themselves which is how it should be.   That scandal is part of the problem too.     

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5 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

10000 fans from each team being discussed for the FA Cup final at Wembley.

Totally ridiculous when you think how many couples and families have season tickets together. How on earth you arrive at those 10,000 when you have 22,000 to satisfy goodness knows.

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1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

Totally ridiculous when you think how many couples and families have season tickets together. How on earth you arrive at those 10,000 when you have 22,000 to satisfy goodness knows.

20,000 out of a 90,000 capacity, so one supporter for every 4.5 seats.  Taking into account the rows behind and in front, that might allow 1m distancing but not so sure about 2m.

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2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Totally ridiculous when you think how many couples and families have season tickets together. How on earth you arrive at those 10,000 when you have 22,000 to satisfy goodness knows.

...thats just us though....if Man United get to the final theyve got to choose 10k from about 50k season ticket holders..

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2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Totally ridiculous when you think how many couples and families have season tickets together. How on earth you arrive at those 10,000 when you have 22,000 to satisfy goodness knows.

Never mind all that Tilly.

What they need to do is just look after poor old souls like you, me and Nutty who will have waited over half a century without so much as a b*oody Semi-Final to celebrate. 😉

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Yes I'm sorry about that, but due to the pandemic only those under 60 will be able to attend. 

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6 hours ago, DraytonBoy said:

Why would the three relegated clubs go bust, they'd simply have to make ends meet by selling players and cutting the wage bill which is surely fairer than just being given £50 million? Is it any surprise the clubs currently 2nd and 3rd in the Championship both received tens of millions in parachute payments this season?  

It didn't happen for us last time round. We just ended up paying Stephen Naismith.

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23 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

10000 fans from each team being discussed for the FA Cup final at Wembley.

Roughly half our season ticket holders.

Imagine effectively tossing a coin to see whether you're allowed in to see an FA Cup final?!

By the time we get to an FA Cup final, selling 10,000 tickets will seem a huge task. It is being devalued so much that we will probably even have a home game on at the same time, and send our U23s down for it. 

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