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pete

Is legal action the only recourse?

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The fact they are talking about PPG just shows they know that the season has to have the full number of matches. A far more honest solution would be to apply PPG for any teams with games in hand to catch them up then just call the table as is. Accept the season didn't finish and then promote/relegate on that basis. PPG is a fudge, no two ways about it.

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2 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

So true.

If Leeds weren't about to benefit from PPG they would have a different speech but respect to Cyan for being honest, I've read so many comments on Twitter by Leeds fans who claim that they want to play out the season and then in the next breathe talk about PPG being great.

The problem with any solution is that it will upset someone as some will benefit and some will lose, my issue with it is that games played to date only tell part of the story, ie to get to that point. 

The season has to be played out to get a 'fair' result and reading some of the legal stuff in this thread and no matter what anyone thinks, PPG does not guarantee that Leeds will be promoted as it's way more complex than that.

I have said this before and it think it's still relevant, there is a reason that the EFL are forcing the point about finishing the season and that's because they need to to ensure promotion can take place.

You are right Whichever way it goes somebody will be deeply unhappy which is why I do genuinely want the games to be completed. For all my talk of PPG winding people up and wouldn't that be funny I would take it of course but far from ideal. I'd be frustrated for Bielsa as much as anything

Though we cannot be there I want him and our players to have their moment of glory if we make it. 

 

 

I do not think we will fail this time though especially if we beat Fulham 

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8 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Well Christoph for one. Says even if you finish bottom we shouldn't be promoted if we don't complete the season. Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick and he means he is happy enough for 3 down but no promotion in those circumstances? A 17 team Prem and 27 team champ next season. If that is what he meant then fair enough.

 

Na I don't think he or Webber for that matter meant that at all.

You know full well what he means.
It has nothing to do with football, politics, PPG or anything. Its just that everybody hates Leeds. More than Cummings in fact.

Ach no don't tell me we are hated. This hurts more than you will ever know. 

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8 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Between Leeds and Liverpool, there have been enough tears to float a battleship and even when both teams are on the verge, not only does the world hate them, but a virus does as well.

There is still a slight chance of null and void and they don't like it up 'em

Will you please stop hurting my feelings with your cruel words 

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3 minutes ago, Cyan said:

You are right Whichever way it goes somebody will be deeply unhappy which is why I do genuinely want the games to be completed. For all my talk of PPG winding people up and wouldn't that be funny I would take it of course but far from ideal. I'd be frustrated for Bielsa as much as anything

Though we cannot be there I want him and our players to have their moment of glory if we make it. 

 

 

I do not think we will fail this time though especially if we beat Fulham 

I'll put it out there and be honest, if Norwich were in this situation like Leeds and about to gain promotion having been unsuccessful for a longer, I'd take it every day of the week.

However, having experienced the new PL they can stick it where the sun doesn't shine as the PL is no longer 'football' 😁

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1 minute ago, Cyan said:

Will you please stop hurting my feelings with your cruel words 

Well I will. You should be promoted finally this year but you're going to have to have patience. Don't expect your final set of games will be a breeze as teams often get nervous as the finishing line appears. Wins become draws.

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1 hour ago, Cyan said:

You are right Whichever way it goes somebody will be deeply unhappy which is why I do genuinely want the games to be completed. For all my talk of PPG winding people up and wouldn't that be funny I would take it of course but far from ideal. I'd be frustrated for Bielsa as much as anything

Though we cannot be there I want him and our players to have their moment of glory if we make it. 

 

 

I do not think we will fail this time though especially if we beat Fulham 

We've heard that before, many times in fact!

Leeds are perpetual 'bottlers' as far as seeing a season out is concerned.  Promotion and relegation is influenced greatly by mental and human factors, something a statistical solution such as PPG cannot replicate. Leeds have consistently proven over the last decade or so that they finish seasons in poor form. 

Until its won, it isn't. For me it's clear, null and void is the fairest way to end the season without football being played. Nobody has lost anything they had or owned possession of. Leeds may 'hold' a promotion place but they do not own it. The season cannot be cut short either. 

I think play will resume behind closed doors, but the sporting integrity will be brought into question, with clubs potentially losing competitive home advantage etc. Plus the interaction of relegation and promotion between the EPL and EFL. Again, null and voiding the season, would be the cleanest cut available IMO. Legal battles? Yes. But much less complex than any of the other potential options. 

As a final point, I've lost interest how it ends to be quite honest. For me the season is over. I don't particularly care what division or what football format Norwich return to play in, so long as they do so with fans and it's competitive! 

 

 

 

Edited by Il Pirata
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Clearly the fairest solution is to do PPG based on what Leeds did last season- so give them 10 points from the last 9 games as they managed last season.

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15 minutes ago, king canary said:

Clearly the fairest solution is to do PPG based on what Leeds did last season- so give them 10 points from the last 9 games as they managed last season.

If 3 of those points come against Fulham then that will just about do. Can't see them winning 6 of their other 8, tough run in. We'll see. 

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20 minutes ago, Cyan said:

If 3 of those points come against Fulham then that will just about do. Can't see them winning 6 of their other 8, tough run in. We'll see. 

Or we could just go the PPG route and award 3.65 points between you? That sort of result sounds like it will absolutely re-enforce the integrity of our game.

(Assuming my maths is correct, happy for you to put me right otherwise)

Edited by Ian

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3 hours ago, Ian said:

Or we could just go the PPG route and award 3.65 points between you? That sort of result sounds like it will absolutely re-enforce the integrity of our game.

(Assuming my maths is correct, happy for you to put me right otherwise)

Na at this stage the only thing that will reinforce the integrity of the game is to pretend well over a thousand games didn't happen and null and void the season that is 80% done. 

I know you lot stay up that way but obviously that was the last thing on your mind. All about the games integrity innit 🤣🤣

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1 minute ago, Cyan said:

Na at this stage the only thing that will reinforce the integrity of the game is to pretend well over a thousand games didn't happen and null and void the season that is 80% done. 

I know you lot stay up that way but obviously that was the last thing on your mind. All about the games integrity innit 🤣🤣

Already stated my thoughts in quite some detail on a post you have already replied to. As stated, most have absolutely no problem with finishing the season (even if behind closed doors) as the preferred solution to our current scenario. Most neutral fans would wonder about the fairness of the top flight being forced to finish their games if the EFL have no intention of doing so, especially considering the impact this would have on the following seasons when the relegated teams' opponents have had months of rest and recuperation.

If we are not able to all finish our games, there's going to be no solution that is ideal. To null and void the current seasons would obviously be incredibly harsh on Leeds and West Brom, but to end on PPG would be equally harsh on the bottom three and any teams chasing the automatic positions or playoffs. I would also make the point that PPG unfairly prejudices a greater number of teams, although arguably to a lesser extent. I expect that if you were not a Leeds fan you would probably agree.

Indeed, when you take all the Premiership riches out of the equation, the FA themselves considered null and void the solution with greater integrity when they justified their decision to cancel the lower leagues, so it will be very curious to see how they justify a different point-of-view for the top tiers.

In terms of long-term precedents, any sort of artificial early end to the season effectively destroys the principles on which the football league season is defined, but I do understand what it must be like to be crave promotion to the top flight so much that you don't really consider the long-term future of the game. As Norwich fans have grown used to the poisoned chalice of several promotions and relegations from the top flight over the last decade, I suspect some of us are able to see things from a more balanced perspective, without the desperation and novelty to be promoted at all costs.

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I think Nutty should start a book, with the money going to the CSF, on how many games it will take next season, after the umpteenth scandalous VAR decision has gone against them, for Leeds fans to return here and demand that our two clubs immediately swap divisions...

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7 hours ago, Cyan said:

As would completely null and voiding a season that is 80% done. 

Finish the season, it’s the only way

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18 hours ago, Cyan said:

As would completely null and voiding a season that is 80% done. 

Once again, you confuse unlucky with unfair. Null and void results in unfortunate outcomes for some sides but it is u questionably “fair.”

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Once again, you confuse unlucky with unfair. Null and void results in unfortunate outcomes for some sides but it is u questionably “fair.”

Norwich are bottom, 6 points off safety. Won less than everybody else, lost more, scored less, worst GD. Bookies favourites for the drop 

So of course you think null and void is unquestionably fair. 

However I fear you may be confusing 'unquestionably' with ' not even remotely'. 

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To paraphrase Mrs Merton: 

What is it that makes rooted to the bottom with least wins, most defeats, worst GD, least goals scored Norwich City think that null and void is unquestionably fair.

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28 minutes ago, Cyan said:

To paraphrase Mrs Merton: 

What is it that makes rooted to the bottom with least wins, most defeats, worst GD, least goals scored Norwich City think that null and void is unquestionably fair.

Equally, what is it that makes the team currently top of the Championship, who have a tremendous past record of bottling and collapsing towards the end of a season, who have a manager who's entire history is littered with his teams running out of energy towards the end of a season, think that PPG is unquestionably fair?

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Lets be honest- there is no 'fair' outcome possible. Even if every league played out their season there would still be a big caveat next to any results that season.

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Regardless of whether the season is settled on PPG with promotion and relegation, PPG without, null and void or if indeed one or both of the Premier League and Championship are played to a finish behind closed doors, the teams who end up with their undesired outcome will claim it isn't fair and those who get what they wanted will indeed be viewed by fans of other clubs as 'lucky'. 

Ultimately, with all outcomes having some teams claim that it's unfair on them, the decision will probably end up being based on what decisions will be easier to justify in court. Obviously if seasons are all played to a finish then that will be that, and no team has a case, but if one or both isn't completed then what will be the easiest? I'm not a legal expert, but surely no promotion/relegation would have a stronger case in court? Basing results on PPG would involve far greater amendments to existing rules and relegating a club that wasn't confirmed relegated is surely more questionable than denying a club promotion that wasn't confirmed promoted. 

Edited by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man
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Cyan, what do you think of play-off EPL winners plus top 2 vs bottom 3 in the PL in a mini league to determine promotion/relegation?

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What a pointless argument . Leeds/lLiverpool fans find merit in whatever course of action sees them promoted or win the league . Conversely teams at the bottom see similar merit in actions that have the outcome of their teams staying up. 
 

Very few are properly debating the actual question . Should football restart or not. What are the facts ? 
 

During a time of unprecedented global illness the starting point should be - don’t start . It has to be . Unless life and macro economies depend on it (for one read the other) then it makes no sense to run any kind of risk at all. 
 

it is absolutely bonkers to even consider it - and if it wasn’t for the money it would be scrapped and eyes would be turned to a safe restart next season . 
 

it is of course all about money and this includes the promotion relegation argument . And when decisions are taken purely on financial factors they usually tend to be wrong . 

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What is the point of Leeds getting promoted anyway? They will be ridiculed by every football supporter in the land if they get a lucky promotion that wasn’t earned, and all for a completely forgettable season where people lose total interest with it being played behind closed doors. 
 

Btw -this  no shaking hands before the game, it’s the most pointless new rule ever, and doesn’t make sense at all.

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Y'know....at this moment in time I don't really give a damn about any form of football......Whatever happens it's going to be one big ferkin sheetstorm.....

 

I'm now going for a nice stroll in this beautiful weather whilst maintaining social separation....as unlike many poor souls I'm very fortunate and privileged to be allowed to do so.....

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31 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

What a pointless argument . 

 

31 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

During a time of unprecedented global illness the starting point should be - don’t start .

But if the season doesn't restart, this argument becomes essential.

Who plays in which division when football finally does restart?

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53 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

What a pointless argument . Leeds/lLiverpool fans find merit in whatever course of action sees them promoted or win the league . Conversely teams at the bottom see similar merit in actions that have the outcome of their teams staying up. 
 

Very few are properly debating the actual question . Should football restart or not. What are the facts ? 
 

During a time of unprecedented global illness the starting point should be - don’t start . It has to be . Unless life and macro economies depend on it (for one read the other) then it makes no sense to run any kind of risk at all. 
 

it is absolutely bonkers to even consider it - and if it wasn’t for the money it would be scrapped and eyes would be turned to a safe restart next season . 
 

it is of course all about money and this includes the promotion relegation argument . And when decisions are taken purely on financial factors they usually tend to be wrong . 

I guess the question then is- are you prepared to risk a large number of clubs going bust? Because that is what will happen.

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30 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

What is the point of Leeds getting promoted anyway? They will be ridiculed by every football supporter in the land if they get a lucky promotion that wasn’t earned, and all for a completely forgettable season where people lose total interest with it being played behind closed doors. 
 

Btw -this  no shaking hands before the game, it’s the most pointless new rule ever, and doesn’t make sense at all.

Leeds will make a better fist of staying up than we have done so far if they get up. I would actually say what is the point of us getting promoted other than of course to fund the club for the next two or three seasons. 

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1 hour ago, Mello Yello said:

Y'know....at this moment in time I don't really give a damn about any form of football......Whatever happens it's going to be one big ferkin sheetstorm.....

 

I'm now going for a nice stroll in this beautiful weather whilst maintaining social separation....as unlike many poor souls I'm very fortunate and privileged to be allowed to do so.....

How DARE you!! YOU MUST SUFFER!!. Else the misery pie isn't being shared out equally ...

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I can honestly say hand on heart that if Covid 19 had happened a year ago and the season was ruled null and void with us top and seemingly on course for promotion I would have accepted it....of course I’d have been gutted, had a good whinge about it and felt hard done by but deep down I’d have recognised that null and void while being far from ideal is the next best thing to fulfilling the fixtures. To my mind if a campaign can’t be finished then you pretend it never happened, guessing the results of the last few games with different sides having different opponents is completely wrong. 

I sincerely hope the games get played in the top two divisions, it’s the fairest way. 

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