Solicitor on Radio 5 this morning

[Ian 1,129]

11 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

So would you argue that Fulham should be rewarded with Villa or Bournemouth's place in the Premier League? How on earth is that 'fair'?

As for your second point, well that's just wrong and you're trying to reinvent the rules to suit you, again. The FA rules state that a match that gets abandoned before 90 minutes are played is replayed unless the competition has specific rules in place that state otherwise, and to the best of my knowledge, neither the Premier League nor the EFL have anything like that in their rulebooks. If you can prove me wrong, feel free.

And with this, our articulate and intelligent friend will no doubt disappear into the ether...

[Jim Smith 2,314]

This "reward failure" not "success" argument is tiresome. the whole point is that NOBODY has failed or succeeded YET because a season is over 38 or 46 games depending on which division you are in.

What this PPG system does is reward teams who may have had a good start to the season but who have not actually achieved anything yet.

I think it is clearly more unfair to reward teams who have not actually achieved anything yet with a massive cash windfall than it is to reprieve teams who have actually earnt that case windfall over 46 games but have not had a chance to defend their position over 38 games in the premier league. 

[JF 694]

Sums up the ludicrous nature of PPG

From Martin Samuel - Wycombe take Peterborough’s place in L1 play offs because they get awarded 1.73 points for their game in hand away to leaders Coventry.  Yet Coventry get 1.97 points from the same fixture - making a total of 3.7 points awarded in one match !!!!!!  Eh ?

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

2 minutes ago, JF said:

Sums up the ludicrous nature of PPG

From Martin Samuel - Wycombe take Peterborough’s place in L1 play offs because they get awarded 1.73 points for their game in hand away to leaders Coventry.  Yet Coventry get 1.97 points from the same fixture - making a total of 3.7 points awarded in one match !!!!!!  Eh ?

Yep, there are many that will come out of this looking stupid and Rick Parry and the EFL will be high up the list. 

Its actually logic like this that will support any legal case as the basis that they are making (sorry forcing) decisions is massively floored.

[Ian 1,129]

5 minutes ago, JF said:

Sums up the ludicrous nature of PPG

From Martin Samuel - Wycombe take Peterborough’s place in L1 play offs because they get awarded 1.73 points for their game in hand away to leaders Coventry.  Yet Coventry get 1.97 points from the same fixture - making a total of 3.7 points awarded in one match !!!!!!  Eh ?

It's a pathetic system. It doesn't take into account quality of opposition, home/away, form, or any of a multitude of variables that would have a determination on the odds going into a match, let alone the result coming into it.

Taking any fan biases out of the equation, the only people who think PPG is a good way of settling a season either haven't thought about it much, or stand to benefit from it substantially. Shame on the EFL for trying to push through a system that has effectively been contrived to benefit the top two teams in each division.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Ian
EPL/EFL

[Jim Smith 2,314]

The problem is UEFA came out with this "sporting merit" line about how leagues need to decide by reference to sporting merit which teams qualify for their competitions. And it was only said in relation to qualification for those competititions. They didn't actually say what they meant by it either.

And yet suddenly PPG has been seized upon (in most cases unquestioningly) by all and sundry as representing "sporting merit" even though the FA, when they expunged the results at non-league level expressly cited the fact that PPG meant teams cannot play themselves out of relegation meant they were deprived the opportunity to save themselves on "sporting merit."

So you have the FA saying expressly in an FA Council ratified decision that PPG is NOT "sporting merit" but then pushing the EPL and the EFL (not that Parry needs pushing as he's obsessed with pushing to ensure there is relegation from t he premier league) to ensure there is both promotion and relegation even if the season is curtailed. 

 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

19 minutes ago, Ian said:

It's a pathetic system. It doesn't take into account quality of opposition, home/away, form, or any of a multitude of variables that would have a determination on the odds going into a match, let alone the result coming into it.

Taking any fan biases out of the equation, the only people who think PPG is a good way of settling a season either haven't thought about it much, or stand to benefit from it substantially. Shame on the EFL for trying to push through a system that has effectively been contrived to benefit the top two teams in each division.

The more you analyse it the more unfair it is. You gift certain teams promotion on the basis its "unfair" to deny them the chance to go up after having played x games (or in the case of the 6th placed teams you gift them a chance to continue playing for promotion) but at the same time you deny teams at the other end of the table the chance to save themsleves despite the fact they had 10 games to do so. Only an imbecile or someone with a massively pointed agenda cannot see the inherent unfairness in that.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The more you analyse it the more unfair it is. You gift certain teams promotion on the basis its "unfair" to deny them the chance to go up after having played x games (or in the case of the 6th placed teams you gift them a chance to continue playing for promotion) but at the same time you deny teams at the other end of the table the chance to save themsleves despite the fact they had 10 games to do so. Only an imbecile or someone with a massively pointed agenda cannot see the inherent unfairness in that.

It's this. Yes there are imbeciles, but generally people with an agenda are in the majority who cannot see the unfairness, and they decide (like the Leeds fans have done) to use the morally 'superior' (*sigh*) argument of greedy, money hungry Bottom 6 teams/pandemic etc as their cover up for their own reasons.

I've seen Liverpool and Leeds fans call for a null and void and I have seen Norwich fans call for the games to be played out. 

[Ian 1,129]

8 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The more you analyse it the more unfair it is. You gift certain teams promotion on the basis its "unfair" to deny them the chance to go up after having played x games (or in the case of the 6th placed teams you gift them a chance to continue playing for promotion) but at the same time you deny teams at the other end of the table the chance to save themsleves despite the fact they had 10 games to do so. Only an imbecile or someone with a massively pointed agenda cannot see the inherent unfairness in that.

Genuinely, I think it would be more mathematically sound to use one of these "supercomputer predicts" algorithms to determine the season than it is to use a naive PPG model, which can actually result in an impossible allocation of points depending on permutations remaining within the season.
 

[Crabbycanary3 994]

1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

So would you argue that Fulham should be rewarded with Villa or Bournemouth's place in the Premier League? How on earth is that 'fair'?

As for your second point, well that's just wrong and you're trying to reinvent the rules to suit you, again. The FA rules state that a match that gets abandoned before 90 minutes are played is replayed unless the competition has specific rules in place that state otherwise, and to the best of my knowledge, neither the Premier League nor the EFL have anything like that in their rulebooks. If you can prove me wrong, feel free.

No, no no NO. Lowfields consulted his mates in the Echo Chamber (is that a Pub in Leeds?) and they said it to him, so it IS true that games that are abandoned, means the result stands.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Crabbycanary3

[Ian 1,129]

Just now, Ian said:

Genuinely, I think it would be more mathematically sound to use one of these "supercomputer predicts" algorithms to determine the season than it is to use a naive PPG model, which can actually result in an impossible allocation of points depending on permutations remaining within the season.
 

Although on the plus side, I do think all these obvious criticisms leave the door widely open for successful compensation claims if it is used to determine promotion/relegation. Factor in the FA's own decision and justification to void lower leagues and I think Parry will be made to look pretty stupid before the year is out...

[Crabbycanary3 994]

Let''s not panic, Lowfields may be back. He may have been walking his dog, researching the truth , ringing his mates to tell him of his stint on here, or he may be on the other Clubs fan's forums that I talked about earlier. Ultimately he has , in print, shown that he certainly does have the DNA of a typical Leeds fan.

[Disco Dales Jockstrap 1,891]

2 hours ago, Lowfields1919 said:

If I was a Notwich fan, and I am being genuine here - I would much rather be relegated fairly, than play another season in the Premier league because the season got "cancelled".

If I was a Leed's fan, and I am being genuine here - I would much rather be promoted fairly, than play a season in the Premier league because the season got "cancelled".     

It works both ways my friend...

You seem to be complaining an awful lot, on another club's forum no less, about us wanting to void the season (evidence?) which, if it happened, would mean your club wouldn't be promoted. So your complaint is simply an ego-centric reaction to this potentially negative outcome for your club - the very same thing you appear to be accusing us of....

Apart from actually finishing all the games on the pitch, any other option is going to be unfair in someway - to pretend otherwise is to ignore reality. 

As for us getting relegated, I can't say I'm that bothered from a simply football perspective - there are bigger picture things to worry about at the mo.

However, it would be quite amusing if the season was voided and you weren't promoted; they'll be able to hear your collective outrage to Pluto and back!

OTBC

[Jim Smith 2,314]

2 minutes ago, Ian said:

Although on the plus side, I do think all these obvious criticisms leave the door widely open for successful compensation claims if it is used to determine promotion/relegation. Factor in the FA's own decision and justification to void lower leagues and I think Parry will be made to look pretty stupid before the year is out...

They may well just have done the maths and decided to take the path that sees the least compensation claims. If the prem plays out then any big money compensation claims fall away because its the relegated clubs who would have the biggest claims (in value terms not talking about merit). Financially there is obviously a hit for clubs like Tranmere going from league 1 to league 2 but its probably not enormous. Same for clubs going from the champ to League 1.

[Ian 1,129]

1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

They may well just have done the maths and decided to take the path that sees the least compensation claims. If the prem plays out then any big money compensation claims fall away because its the relegated clubs who would have the biggest claims (in value terms not talking about merit). Financially there is obviously a hit for clubs like Tranmere going from league 1 to league 2 but its probably not enormous. Same for clubs going from the champ to League 1.

True. Given his background I expect Parry has rolled some figures around with his chums.

Also, the cyncial side of me suggests the EFL know that clubs have to take the risk of expensive legal action paying off, and that some may not be able to afford that risk.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

1 minute ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

If I was a Leed's fan, and I am being genuine here - I would much rather be promoted fairly, than play a season in the Premier league because the season got "cancelled".     

It works both ways my friend...

You seem to be complaining an awful lot, on another club's forum no less, about us wanting to void the season (evidence?) which, if it happened, would mean your club wouldn't be promoted. So your complaint is simply an ego-centric reaction to this potentially negative outcome for your club - the very same thing you appear to be accusing us of....

Apart from actually finishing all the games on the pitch, any other option is going to be unfair in someway - to pretend otherwise is to ignore reality. 

As for us getting relegated, I can't say I'm that bothered from a simply football perspective - there are bigger picture things to worry about at the mo.

However, it would be quite amusing if the season was voided and you weren't promoted; they'll be able to hear your collective outrage to Pluto and back!

OTBC

This is me also.

 

It also highlights how (mainly) Leeds fans want to claim the moral high ground with their accusations of us wanting the money, Premier League 'kudos' , yet no one I have seen connected with our Club have said anything to back that up, so they can say they told us so (Sorry).

They are panicking because games haven't been played yet, and may not be for weeks (which would impact on the start of next season along with the precious finances). No Norwich fan wants another death to occur, and we also want the World to get back to normality. If that means relegation, then, for me, I couldn't give a monkeys. Leeds fans can't get that, but that is their small mindedness nothing else. They are blinded by the Promised Land, as they have been looking in, from the outside for years, and they have this conception of what it is. They are going to be disappointed.

[hogesar 9,618]

Haven't read through all this yet, but how funny is it that "mighty Leeds" fans are so triggered by NCFC that they have to come onto our forum and spout drivel over pages and pages of posts?

Is it because we embarrassed them in League One?

Is it because we went and got promoted again straight after that embarrassment?

Is it because, to rub salt into their wounds, we then took their only decent players?

Or maybe it's the simple fact that, in the words of a Leeds fan online - no matter what they do in football at the moment, Norwich just seem to do it better?

Or perhaps it's the god knows how many years of being totally irrelevant to everyone outside of Leeds? I suppose it's nice they get a few more fans than the previous years now that they stand a chance of getting promoted.

To be honest, I think it's just a natural reaction to watching your entire club bottle every single opportunity that comes their way.

Absolutely love it 😂😀😂

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, Ian said:

True. Given his background I expect Parry has rolled some figures around with his chums.

Also, the cyncial side of me suggests the EFL know that clubs have to take the risk of expensive legal action paying off, and that some may not be able to afford that risk.

That may be the case, although I was having a chat with a mate who trained in the legal world and it only takes one to do it and then submit evidence to support it, that evidence can be based on others being impacted also.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Haven't read through all this yet, but how funny is it that "mighty Leeds" fans are so triggered by NCFC that they have to come onto our forum and spout drivel over pages and pages of posts?

Is it because we embarrassed them in League One?

Is it because we went and got promoted again straight after that embarrassment?

Is it because, to rub salt into their wounds, we then took their only decent players?

Or maybe it's the simple fact that, in the words of a Leeds fan online - no matter what they do in football at the moment, Norwich just seem to do it better?

Or perhaps it's the god knows how many years of being totally irrelevant to everyone outside of Leeds? I suppose it's nice they get a few more fans than the previous years now that they stand a chance of getting promoted.

To be honest, I think it's just a natural reaction to watching your entire club bottle every single opportunity that comes their way.

Absolutely love it 😂😀😂

He seems to have disappeared now so he's either had his account deleted or it was time for his afternoon nap 🤷‍♂️

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

21 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

If I was a Leed's fan, and I am being genuine here - I would much rather be promoted fairly, than play a season in the Premier league because the season got "cancelled".     

It works both ways my friend...

You seem to be complaining an awful lot, on another club's forum no less, about us wanting to void the season (evidence?) which, if it happened, would mean your club wouldn't be promoted. So your complaint is simply an ego-centric reaction to this potentially negative outcome for your club - the very same thing you appear to be accusing us of....

Apart from actually finishing all the games on the pitch, any other option is going to be unfair in someway - to pretend otherwise is to ignore reality. 

As for us getting relegated, I can't say I'm that bothered from a simply football perspective - there are bigger picture things to worry about at the mo.

However, it would be quite amusing if the season was voided and you weren't promoted; they'll be able to hear your collective outrage to Pluto and back!

OTBC

Oh that is cruel! Deliberately chosing Pluto, which used to be thought big enough to be proper planet but which has been downgraded to dwarf status...

[Crabbycanary3 994]

Only the Pluto supporters thought they were the biggest , and most popular Planet in Space, though. Everyone else knew the truth

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

So we now know that Leeds are so confident, because its Bielsa, that they won't blow it, unlike last season with the same manager.

They are that confident that their players will not get the virus. Despite the number of cases in their region slowing at a slower rate than others.

That the EPL will relegate teams if the season is curtailed.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Only the Pluto supporters thought they were the biggest , and most popular Planet in Space, though. Everyone else knew the truth

He could be talking from Uranus

[Jim Smith 2,314]

A good thread from some bloke on twitter:

 

1/11) On 19 March 2020

@SkyBetLeagueOne

was suspended with each team having played 34-36 matches out of 44 in total (variable by team) @TranmereRovers
had ten games of the season left to play.

2:21 pm · 22 May 2020·Twitter Web App

 

(2/11) A year earlier, an equivalent point in the season was reached on 10 March 2019; 20 out of 24 teams in

@SkyBetLeagueOne had ten games of the 18/19 season remaining.

 

(3/11)@Only1Argyle ,WFCOfficial, and @SUFCOfficial were placed 15th, 16th, 18th in @SkyBetLeagueOne respectively. All three clubs struggled during the final ten games and ended the season in the relegation zone.

(4/11) If a points per game (PPG) calculation had been applied to the 18/19 @SkyBetLeagueOne season on 10 March 2019, @Only1Argyle, @WFCOfficial, ,& @SUFCOfficial would have stayed up. @OUFCOfficial, @officiallydale &@AFCWimbledon would have been relegated instead.

 

(5/11) PPG would have resulted in an average forecasting error of 3.87pts per team when compared to the actual 18/19 @SkyBetLeagueOne final standings. For context, five clubs (17th-21st place) were separate by just 3pts in the final table.

(6/11) Half of all  @SkyBetLeagueOne teams would have experienced a variation of 5% or more against their actual final points totals if PPG had been applied on 10 March 2019.

(7/11) The greatest variation would have affected @OUFCOfficial. PPG would have resulted in a 17% under-estimation of Oxford's final 18/19 points total and they would have been relegated. PPG forecast: 49.83pts. Actual: 60pts.

(8/11) Currently the @EFL rules do not allow PPG to be used to conclude a @SkyBetLeagueOne season prematurely. However, the EFL Board have recommended the rule's introduction and retrospective application to resolve the 19/20 season.

(9/11) @FA recommended that tiers 3-7 of @TheVanaramaNL should be voided, rather than decided by PPG, in order to protect the integrity of the competition.

(10/11) When the 19/20 season was suspended, @TranmereRovers were three points behind @AFCWimbledon with a game in hand. The two clubs still had to play each other.

(11/11) The @EFL proposes that PPG should be applied to @SkyBetLeagueOne and that, in effect, @TranmereRovers

should be relegated with ten games unplayed. They suggest this will maintain the integrity of the football league!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Disco Dales Jockstrap 1,891]

10 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Oh that is cruel! Deliberately chosing Pluto, which used to be thought big enough to be proper planet but which has been downgraded to dwarf status...

...and the thing is Purple, Pluto was never really as big as it thought it was in the first place even before it was downgraded. The parallels are quite uncanny!

I wonder if plutonians also infest martian's forums and complain about their lot - I'm sure they must have deep and ingrained insecurities about their place in the solar system family? Nah - I'm sure they've got more class than that.

OTBC

[sonyc 5,491]

I'm unsure if Pluto is a good description....a Plutonian personality is represented by a person, it must be said, considered to be provocative, and yet he/she is also aware of things many others are not, to see things that others can not see......

oh wait a minute, perhaps it is a good term

Edited May 22, 2020 by sonyc

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

WACCOS....We Are Champions Champions Of Space!

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

Just now, sonyc said:

I'm unsure if Pluto is a good description....a Plutonian personality is, it must be said, whilst considered to be provocative, he/she is also aware of things many others are not, to see things that others can not see......

oh wait a minute, perhaps it is a good term

You mean like Lakeyo seeing the 'True Message' in DFs post match  interviews. ( see Todders thread)

[sonyc 5,491]

I've lived in the wider Leeds area for 40 plus years - some fans are okay but a good or significant percentage have a big chip on their shoulders. Met a chap last year just before the Leeds home game against us and he was typically cocksure. I just smiled as he told me how good they were. Imagine my enjoyment after that match, a match by the way where Leeds fans met the team as they entered the ground screaming and mouthing off at them. They gave our team the team talk they needed as we played like lions.

There is a certain inferiority complex and I'm sure underneath they admire Norwich (but wished they didn't).

[kick it off 1,948]

4 hours ago, Lowfields1919 said:

Leeds - Bielsa.

Villa - Dean Smith.

Ill leave that there.

Dean Smith has a promotion on his CV and Bielsa has a spectacular failure. They beat you in the playoffs too didn't they? Quite why you're so far up Bielsa's **** and denigrating of Smith who has done a better job at Villa than Bielsa has with you lot, is beyond me.

Also beyond me why you think Bielsa spunking all the TV cash would do you any good. 

BTW - I'm hoping we go down so you can direct your ire for that elsewhere, I'm in a presumably very small minority who don't want to stay up - in fact, I'm annoyed that the pandemic might stop our relegation - The Prem is utterly ****e and boring. Championship is far more fun to be involved with as a supporter. If you're not in the big 6 then you're just hoping to scrape a midtable finish year after year..... dull as dishwater. 

Hope you do finally stop bottling it and go back up, just so we can all have a good laugh at your bubble bursting after the decades of you lot jizzing your pants at the prospect of Prem football back at Elland Road......  when Leeds start falling apart again in the top flight.