If this season is completed in the PL....

[Ian 1,129]

9 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Personally, I think the top two from the Championship have earnt the right to play in the Premier League, and it's harsh to make them play another playoff to get there. 

I have no idea how you have come to the conclusion that the top two have earned the right to play in the EPL, when their season is only 80% complete. I can understand the argument that if you are desperate to promote the top two and have no other option, the top two would be the most likely choices to gift promotion to given the current 7 point gap, but I just cannot reconcile this with them deserving it.

Would you suggest that Norwich and Leeds deserved promotion at this point last season over Sheff Utd?


 

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

3 minutes ago, Ian said:

I have no idea how you have come to the conclusion that the top two have earned the right to play in the EPL, when their season is only 80% complete. I can understand the argument that if you are desperate to promote the top two and have no other option, the top two would be the most likely choices to gift promotion to given the current 7 point gap, but I just cannot reconcile this with them deserving it.

Would you suggest that Norwich and Leeds deserved promotion at this point last season over Sheff Utd?


 

Agree.

No team in any league deserves anything until it's a mathematical certainty that they cannot be caught. 

As in previous years, a lot can happen in the remaining fixtures both at the top and bottom of leagues.

Is it fair that Charlton will get relegated having slipped in the relegation zone on the last weekend of played matches knowing that winning the next one probably means they come out again, of course it's not therefore they dont 'deserve' to get relegated but will be.

[Ian 1,129]

1 minute ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Agree.

No team in any league deserves anything until it's a mathematical certainty that they cannot be caught. 

As in previous years, a lot can happen in the remaining fixtures both at the top and bottom of leagues.

Is it fair that Charlton will get relegated having slipped in the relegation zone on the last weekend of played matches knowing that winning the next one probably means they come out again, of course it's not therefore they dont 'deserve' to get relegated but will be.

Let's be honest, nobody is immune from vested interests - but the only people who think PPG is a good/fair way of settling a football season are people who stand to benefit from it.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, Ian said:

Let's be honest, nobody is immune from vested interests - but the only people who think PPG is a good/fair way of settling a football season are people who stand to benefit from it.

100% agree, which makes a mockery of the whole thing.

Football is played with fine margins and how many years have we seen some kind of great escape or some team nicking a result that wins then the title or a place in the play-offs.

How many times do the teams in 3rd place not go up through the play offs, lots.

[pearsos 56]

If the top 2 in the Championship are promoted without the season being fully completed (which I feel would be wrong anyway) how are they going to decide the third team that goes up?

If the season isn’t fully completed how can the play-offs go ahead??

Are they going to promote the team who “artificially” finishes in 3rd place (when we know from past years they don’t always win the playoffs) or force  the 4 teams from 3rd to 6th to play off when the league positions have been decided on a reduced number of games or ppg.

Whilst these 4 clubs will probably jump at the chance to get to the ‘promised land’ of the Premiership what about the safety of the players from these clubs? Not just in terms of Covid19 but potential long term or career threatening injuries due to lack of match fitness and what would happen if Cardiff or Swansea were one of these clubs?

Surely there can’t be one rule for the top 2 clubs and another for the next 4 (whoever they are).

It has been said that the playoffs are a lottery, at the moment the whole situation seems a total lottery to me.

Whilst money rules football at the moment surely in today’s climate common sense must prevail.

 

[Ian 1,129]

3 minutes ago, pearsos said:

If the top 2 in the Championship are promoted without the season being fully completed (which I feel would be wrong anyway) how are they going to decide the third team that goes up?

If the season isn’t fully completed how can the play-offs go ahead??

Are they going to promote the team who “artificially” finishes in 3rd place (when we know from past years they don’t always win the playoffs) or force  the 4 teams from 3rd to 6th to play off when the league positions have been decided on a reduced number of games or ppg.

Whilst these 4 clubs will probably jump at the chance to get to the ‘promised land’ of the Premiership what about the safety of the players from these clubs? Not just in terms of Covid19 but potential long term or career threatening injuries due to lack of match fitness and what would happen if Cardiff or Swansea were one of these clubs?

Surely there can’t be one rule for the top 2 clubs and another for the next 4 (whoever they are).

It has been said that the playoffs are a lottery, at the moment the whole situation seems a total lottery to me.

Whilst money rules football at the moment surely in today’s climate common sense must prevail.

 

Good post. The more thought that is given to this, the more scenarios appear that make it seem such a ludicrous idea.

As for common sense prevailing, I think you have more faith in the quality of EPL/EFL/FA leadership than I...

[king canary 7,562]

We think it's common sense.

Leeds fans probably think it is common sense to promote them and relegate us- after all they are clear at the top of the Championship and we're clear at the bottom.

It is funny how most on here agree the 'common sense' plan is usually one that involves us not being relegated 😁

[Jim Smith 2,314]

38 minutes ago, Ian said:

I have no idea how you have come to the conclusion that the top two have earned the right to play in the EPL, when their season is only 80% complete. I can understand the argument that if you are desperate to promote the top two and have no other option, the top two would be the most likely choices to gift promotion to given the current 7 point gap, but I just cannot reconcile this with them deserving it.

Would you suggest that Norwich and Leeds deserved promotion at this point last season over Sheff Utd?


 

Without wishing to put words in Wacky's mouth I think he was referring to the suggestion that in future playoffs would be a good way of settling things (i.e. he wasn;t saying leeds and WBA deserve to go up now, he was saying that if a team finishes 1st or 2nd in the champ over a full season he thinks they deserve promotion.

But then he's quite capable of speaking for himself so apologies Wacky if I have misrepresented what you said!

[Jim Smith 2,314]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

We think it's common sense.

Leeds fans probably think it is common sense to promote them and relegate us- after all they are clear at the top of the Championship and we're clear at the bottom.

It is funny how most on here agree the 'common sense' plan is usually one that involves us not being relegated 😁

I don't think its common sense I think its a point of principle. A competition has rules. Under the rules of these leagues a complete season is required. If that's not going to happen then surely the season is abandoned failing a compromise agreed by all of the participants (e.g. allow some promotions if clubs think thats fair but don;t punish any teams).

Leeds/WBA think PPG is the "next fairest thing" and are absolutely convinced on that. i think that anything other than playing the games or voiding is unfair on some parties.

The narrative that PPG represents "sporting merit" has been allowed to go unquestioned for too long. UEFA have banded this term about without any thought or specifics of what it actually means and since the decision in France everyone has taken PPG to be synonymous with sporting merit when it really is not.

[Ian 1,129]

3 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Without wishing to put words in Wacky's mouth I think he was referring to the suggestion that in future playoffs would be a good way of settling things (i.e. he wasn;t saying leeds and WBA deserve to go up now, he was saying that if a team finishes 1st or 2nd in the champ over a full season he thinks they deserve promotion.

But then he's quite capable of speaking for himself so apologies Wacky if I have misrepresented what you said!

Ah okay Jim, re-reading his post that make sense actually - and fully agree it is ridiculous to make the top two over the course of a season then play an additional playoff. Apologies to @Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[Ian 1,129]

6 minutes ago, king canary said:

We think it's common sense.

Leeds fans probably think it is common sense to promote them and relegate us- after all they are clear at the top of the Championship and we're clear at the bottom.

It is funny how most on here agree the 'common sense' plan is usually one that involves us not being relegated 😁

It's common sense to realise that any artificial end to the season is going to unfairly prejudice some teams; there have been enough examples of great escapes and/or great implosions to demonstrate this.

The more you think about it, logically, the only "fair" conclusion is to wait until it is safe and reasonable to play out the remainder of the season in exactly the same conditions it has been played in to date. Anything else (other than null and void) sets a dangerous precedent, and I think PPG is probably the worst option of the bunch.

[king canary 7,562]

1 minute ago, Ian said:

It's common sense to realise that any artificial end to the season is going to unfairly prejudice some teams; there have been enough examples of great escapes and/or great implosions to demonstrate this.

The more you think about it, logically, the only "fair" conclusion is to wait until it is safe and reasonable to play out the remainder of the season in exactly the same conditions it has been played in to date. Anything else (other than null and void) sets a dangerous precedent, and I think PPG is probably the worst option of the bunch.

In part I agree.

But this is where 'common sense' isn't actually that sensible because of the huge amount of knock on effects and financial difficulties that just pausing until we can resume as before would cause. So you've got to come up with something else really.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

In part I agree.

But this is where 'common sense' isn't actually that sensible because of the huge amount of knock on effects and financial difficulties that just pausing until we can resume as before would cause. So you've got to come up with something else really.

The compromise Tranmere have suggested (i.e. have promotions but no relegations and adjust the size of the leagues for a season or two) is probably the fairest "something else" other than voiding as it minimises the teams that suffer/are punished yet still rewards those who have had good seasons to date. Its not completely fair and there would still be one or two aggrieved parties but it minimises the numbers of teams negatively affected. However, if it is to apply consistently at all levels then it really relies on the EPL clubs being prepared to accept it for the greater good as well and the EFL and the FA perhaps allowing some adjustments to their cup formats.

[Ian 1,129]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

In part I agree.

But this is where 'common sense' isn't actually that sensible because of the huge amount of knock on effects and financial difficulties that just pausing until we can resume as before would cause. So you've got to come up with something else really.

Quite, and that is my point. Ultimately the EPL and EFL are going to go for the solution that is in the majority interest of their members, and as you say, most likely from a financial perspective, with player/fan safety and the integrity of the sport a distant second.

I just wish the sporting authorities would have the guts to admit that this is the true face of modern elite football in this country, instead of suggesting this is about sporting integrity and fairness. People aren't stupid.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

33 minutes ago, king canary said:

We think it's common sense.

Leeds fans probably think it is common sense to promote them and relegate us- after all they are clear at the top of the Championship and we're clear at the bottom.

It is funny how most on here agree the 'common sense' plan is usually one that involves us not being relegated 😁

Personally I couldn't care less if we get relegated or not, cant think of a season I've enjoyed less or indeed not bothered to go this season.

It's clear that money is driving some really bad decisions here and that's what bothers me, people will effectively be forced in to making decisions that could affect their whole lives from this point onwards and that's not right.

Can't see why they just cant wait a bit longer until there is better control or the numbers have reduced further because at the moment there are to many cases of people dying.

When you have children dying, young fit people and healthcare workers who are protecting themselves, the alarm bells should be ringing loud and clear and good on people like Deeney for standing up to it.

[hogesar 9,611]

Do we deserve to go down more than Leeds deserve to go up? Or do they deserve to go up more than we deserve to go down?

The entire thing is subjective and therefore Bullsh*t.

The only thing we know for sure is neither team have YET done enough to guarantee their fate one way or another according to the rules within the respective leagues.

How many times have Leeds bottled it? How likely is it they would do it again?

How many times have teams at the bottom gone on a run?

Do Leeds deserve it because they play good football? Can't the same be levelled at us?

[JF 694]

A quick glance at the table posted above shows how much **** ppg is. Leeds would have gone up instead of Sheffield United and the team that knocked Leeds out of the play offs ( Derby ) and the eventual play off winners ( Villa ) wouldn’t have even made those play offs. Anyway I think it’s all irrelevant as this season will likely conclude now 

[sonyc 5,482]

3 minutes ago, JF said:

A quick glance at the table posted above shows how much **** ppg is. Leeds would have gone up instead of Sheffield United and the team that knocked Leeds out of the play offs ( Derby ) and the eventual play off winners ( Villa ) wouldn’t have even made those play offs. Anyway I think it’s all irrelevant as this season will likely conclude now 

I believe the season will conclude (EPL) but less sure the Championship will.

[Ian 1,129]

7 minutes ago, JF said:

A quick glance at the table posted above shows how much **** ppg is. Leeds would have gone up instead of Sheffield United and the team that knocked Leeds out of the play offs ( Derby ) and the eventual play off winners ( Villa ) wouldn’t have even made those play offs. Anyway I think it’s all irrelevant as this season will likely conclude now 

Indeed, the only thing we could say with any certainty after 39 games is that those down the road were going down 😂

[Indy 3,283]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

We think it's common sense.

Leeds fans probably think it is common sense to promote them and relegate us- after all they are clear at the top of the Championship and we're clear at the bottom.

It is funny how most on here agree the 'common sense' plan is usually one that involves us not being relegated 😁

It’s noticeable that the media and ex pro darlings in Leeds are always being touted as a premiership club.....I bet if the tables were turned and it was us on top of the champions and Leeds bottom of the EPL there would be moves made to stop them being relegated! It’s all about money, nothing else.

[Mason 47 1,373]

The cleanest solution would have been the people in charge saying 'there's no sensible, legitimate way to end the season. Really sorry everyone, the situation is unprecedented, we're calling the whole thing off'

Wouldn't have been totally fair, certain groups would have been apoplectic for sure, but that would have run its course and everyone would eventually just get on with it. Lack of strong leadership has given rise to the pandemonium of all these different groups finding and backing solutions that suit them and waving 'legal action' at anyone who disagrees.

I believe that now they've gone too far to turn back on forcing this Frankensteinian season through, so our best chance is somehow staying up by winning the games. The damage otherwise has most definitely been done.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

13 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

The cleanest solution would have been the people in charge saying 'there's no sensible, legitimate way to end the season. Really sorry everyone, the situation is unprecedented, we're calling the whole thing off'

Wouldn't have been totally fair, certain groups would have been apoplectic for sure, but that would have run its course and everyone would eventually just get on with it. Lack of strong leadership has given rise to the pandemonium of all these different groups finding and backing solutions that suit them and waving 'legal action' at anyone who disagrees.

I believe that now they've gone too far to turn back on forcing this Frankensteinian season through, so our best chance is somehow staying up by winning the games. The damage otherwise has most definitely been done.

Agree, they clearly had to give it some time to make that call but it actually is the 'fairest' on all involved, however, because of the money that teams like Leeds have invested to get to the promised land, without it they will be up the creek without the paddle.

I suspect most normal people with nothing to gain or lose would agree but those with stuff to gain or lose and I include the PL business in that are determined to get their pot of gold.

I think for a lot of people this has soured football and shown it to be what it is, a business that cares about no one other than themselves.

[hogesar 9,611]

43 minutes ago, Indy said:

It’s noticeable that the media and ex pro darlings in Leeds are always being touted as a premiership club.....I bet if the tables were turned and it was us on top of the champions and Leeds bottom of the EPL there would be moves made to stop them being relegated! It’s all about money, nothing else.

I hate that thought process because it feels so much Little-Norwich-Like.

However, the amount of f*cking times i've heard "every football fan wants Leeds in the premier league".

Do they? I couldn't give two flying f*cks what league Leeds are in.

[sgncfc 1,221]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

We think it's common sense.

Leeds fans probably think it is common sense to promote them and relegate us- after all they are clear at the top of the Championship and we're clear at the bottom.

It is funny how most on here agree the 'common sense' plan is usually one that involves us not being relegated 😁

I think everyone must accept that any decision made on the positions without playing the games is going to go against us.

I'm also not sure that any opinion we hold as Norwich fans about who replaces us is valid, whether that is Leeds or anyone else. If it was Forest leading the Championship (or indeed anyone but Leeds) I suspect everyone would be a little less annoyed about it.

Personally I have no issue with us being relegated if we can't play on as we have clearly been the worst team over 29 games. Similarly, Leeds and West Brom are clearly the two best teams in the Champs over 37 games. How they relegate two others and promote the third team is their real problem.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

14 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I hate that thought process because it feels so much Little-Norwich-Like.

However, the amount of f*cking times i've heard "every football fan wants Leeds in the premier league".

Do they? I couldn't give two flying f*cks what league Leeds are in.

Even Webber said it which really irked me. He’s a fan and (more importantly) it was a clever thing to say to slightly even out the fact he’d just said Leeds shouldn’t be promoted without the championship completing but still.....would people stop declaring Leeds should be in the PL because they’re a ‘big club’. Only Leeds fans and idiots want that

[HairyTeeth 16]

13 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Personally, I think the top two from the Championship have earnt the right to play in the Premier League

You are on a wind up right? Cant you count, the league is over 46 games not 37. No one has earnt anything in that league yet. 

We had to play 46 games to get promotion to fulfil our membership of 19 home and 19 away games in the EPL. Now there is a chance we dont fulfil our membership and get kicked out of the League playing 14 home games and 15 away games and we swap with someone who hasnt fulfilled their right to enter the EPL.

Still 27 points to play for in both leagues so no one has earnt promotion and no one has been relgated. Not hard to work out is it.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

17 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

I think everyone must accept that any decision made on the positions without playing the games is going to go against us.

I'm also not sure that any opinion we hold as Norwich fans about who replaces us is valid, whether that is Leeds or anyone else. If it was Forest leading the Championship (or indeed anyone but Leeds) I suspect everyone would be a little less annoyed about it.

Personally I have no issue with us being relegated if we can't play on as we have clearly been the worst team over 29 games. Similarly, Leeds and West Brom are clearly the two best teams in the Champs over 37 games. How they relegate two others and promote the third team is their real problem.

But you can;t treat us differently to Villa or Bournemouth because we happen to be 6 points behind them. This "oh well Norwich are going down so just relegate them" attitude is pretty prevalent on twitter (Leeds fans in particular) but its wrong. I have a massive issue with us being relegated if we can;t play on and i would hope that the club would too.

As it happens the momentum appears to have shifted significantly towards it all re-starting but if they are going to have to decide what happens if its curtailed before it starts then this debate will still have to be had. We mustn't let them sneak it through as a "fallback."

[Ian 1,129]

34 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

Personally I have no issue with us being relegated if we can't play on as we have clearly been the worst team over 29 games. Similarly, Leeds and West Brom are clearly the two best teams in the Champs over 37 games. How they relegate two others and promote the third team is their real problem.

I genuinely don't get this train of thought. We signed up to a 38 game season to be judged over the course of that accordingly, and the future of the club will be massively affected when/if we are relegated.

I appreciate it's easy to be apathetic in the current global climate, but being accepting of artificial relegation based on a season curtailed through absolutely no fault of our own would set an incredibly dangerous precedent, and it's certainly surprising to find there are quite a few fans who wouldn't be bothered.

[Mason 47 1,373]

1 hour ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

 because of the money that teams like Leeds have invested to get to the promised land, without it they will be up the creek without the paddle

Which is unfortunate but in the same way they're proposing it's fair that any player that has corona is 'just out with an normal injury' you could say Leeds (more than anyone) have to understand they spent that money and may not have gone up anyway.

Whatever the solution is, it's going to be a mess. This is poor parenting by the footballing officials letting the kids challenge authority; even just making a decision that it's PpG and we're down etc would be better than the chronic limp wrist syndrome currently prevailing.  

[Midlands Yellow 3,920]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

I hate that thought process because it feels so much Little-Norwich-Like.

However, the amount of f*cking times i've heard "every football fan wants Leeds in the premier league".

Do they? I couldn't give two flying f*cks what league Leeds are in.

Yes, a lot of other clubs fans would want Leeds in the Premiership. They may not like them but would love to play them. 

Let’s try not to be the victims regarding this. Teams like Bournemouth, Burnley and Watford are higher on relegation wish lists.