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lake district canary

If this season is completed in the PL....

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Given the state of the Champs next season, with no crowds and massively reduced TV revenue, we have to fight tooth and nail to stay in the EPL. I can stomach playing the games and going down on merit, but all this talk of PPG is just absolute BS and should be opposed by any means.

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32 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

All good, sensible points of view but unfortunately the only thing that really matters is that 14 clubs vote in favour of something. If they do that, legal action is simply not possible, unless the vote is somehow unfair or based on incorrect information - this is Hearts's only slight possibility of legal action, as the majority voted for them to be relegated.

If we play to a finish in a manner agreed by 14 of the clubs then if we finish in the bottom 3 we will be relegated unless 14 clubs also agree to suspend relegation/promotion and that is not vetoed by the FA as they have suggested they would do.

I don't think the position is affected by how the EFL choose to finish their season, but if they ratify no relegation from League Two, the EPL will have a precedent to argue against them using their veto on the PL, if there are 14 clubs who want to cancel relegation/promotion.

My gut feeling though is that if the EPL play to a finish there won't be 14 clubs who will then be prepared to vote for cancelling relegation.

So - if we play and finish in the bottom 3, I reckon we go down. Win 6 out of our 9 remaining matches, we stay up.

I'm not sure this is quite correct, the premier league is a company and a company still has to act lawfully. It can still act unlawfully even if it is acting in accordance with its articles (although in such instances its probably harder to succeed in proceedings) if it acts in a way that is unfairly prejudicial to a shareholder or a group of its shareholders. Otherwise minority shareholders would have zero protection and companies could just do as they choose. 

That said, that's all probably more relevant to a vote to curtail and relegate on the basis of PPG. I would agree that if the EPL plays to a finish then clubs are unlikely to have any means of forcing cancellation of relegation, regardless of what the EFL do.

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2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Seems sensible.  If there is a good chance the PL cannot finish in the usual way im not sure that the club should say anything that suggests the PL and football league are anything other than two entirely distinct entities that have their own rules.

I'm  not sure why webber is giving interviews on this. If legal action were contemplated most lawyers would advise you to stfu and, especially, stay away from television interviews.

 

Webber was putting his (very calm and sensible) thoughts on the matter out there so it gets into people’s minds (other clubs and the PL themselves) and gets people on side. It was a clever move that could be solely responsible for the EFLs reaction the same day about completing the championship.

Edited by Fiery Zac

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2 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

Webber was putting his (very calm and sensible) thoughts on the matter out there so it gets into people’s minds (other clubs and the PL themselves) and gets people on side. It was a clever move that could be solely responsible for the EFLs reaction the same day about completing the championship.

Agree and not sure if just me, but how typical that Gary Neville supports Webber's stance and Jamie Carragher doesn't.

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2 hours ago, City 101 said:

Jamie Carragher said this morning on Sky that Webber’s stance on no relegation if the Premier finishes but the Championship doesn’t Is a non starter and the bottom 3 go down and the Premier league has no say on how the Championship decides to finish . 
We should just say that’s it and we are finished for the season stop the circus because whatever happens we are going to end up relegated . 

The EFL will ultimately decide but the PL doesn’t have to accept anyone into its league. Discussions and agreements need to be made, clubs need to force decisions to be made. As has been pointed out, they are separate entities. However the PL seem desperate for relegation to be completed (assumedly so there is actually a point to resuming the season) so what the bottom 6 (and all with any sort of sporting morals left) need to get an agreement on is relegation takes place as long as there are worthy replacements ready to be promoted i.e teams that have completed a full season in the championship and actually deserve to take the place of those who have completed a full season in the PL

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10 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Agree and not sure if just me, but how typical that Gary Neville supports Webber's stance and Jamie Carragher doesn't.

Carragher is clueless, Neville talks some sense so I'd rather he was the one agreeing 

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5 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

The EFL will ultimately decide but the PL doesn’t have to accept anyone into its league. Discussions and agreements need to be made, clubs need to force decisions to be made. As has been pointed out, they are separate entities. However the PL seem desperate for relegation to be completed (assumedly so there is actually a point to resuming the season) so what the bottom 6 (and all with any sort of sporting morals left) need to get an agreement on is relegation takes place as long as there are worthy replacements ready to be promoted i.e teams that have completed a full season in the championship and actually deserve to take the place of those who have completed a full season in the PL

This 🔝🔝🔝🔝🔝

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9 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

The EFL will ultimately decide but the PL doesn’t have to accept anyone into its league. Discussions and agreements need to be made, clubs need to force decisions to be made. As has been pointed out, they are separate entities. However the PL seem desperate for relegation to be completed (assumedly so there is actually a point to resuming the season) so what the bottom 6 (and all with any sort of sporting morals left) need to get an agreement on is relegation takes place as long as there are worthy replacements ready to be promoted i.e teams that have completed a full season in the championship and actually deserve to take the place of those who have completed a full season in the PL

Would any of the bottom 6 accept relegation if the PL didn't finish but the Championship did?

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30 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

Webber was putting his (very calm and sensible) thoughts on the matter out there so it gets into people’s minds (other clubs and the PL themselves) and gets people on side. It was a clever move that could be solely responsible for the EFLs reaction the same day about completing the championship.

Perhaps this was a well rehearsed and carefully considered intervention but generally I would have thought that if you dont give an interview you won't give ammunition to your opponents. I'm sure that lawyers at leeds will have looked carefully at the interview to see what he has said that might weight against us in the future.

Hopefully the interview is a masterstroke.   I dont know but I'd be surprised if our lawyers advised him to go on and just talk freely (unless our case is hopeless anyway!)

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There will be three teams relegated if there is relegation whoever it is they will have deeper pockets than City and relegation will have greater impact on them.  Expect legal action if EFL does not finish.  Surely the clubs need to have an idea how league will be decided before the league resumes and vote on it, it must be agreed.

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I can assure you 100% that if the Championship doesnt finish we will not get relegated and if we dont finish season.

This Greg Clarke/FA stance is just for show. There is no way on this earth they will relegate if Premier League doesnt finish. You cant just punish teams for something which is out of the bottom 3s control, it just wont happen. There is far too much money involved for them to do that. 

A team who has played 37 games promoted to the EPL just wont happen. You have to earn the right and no one has yet.

 

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2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

erhaps this was a well rehearsed and carefully considered intervention

That’s how I interpret it. Webber is a clever man and when he decided to start talking (The club had been silent up to then) it was always going to be something he wanted others to take note of and to cause debate.

Dont know how everyone else feels but he just makes me relaxed about how the club is running and how it will conduct itself throughout this madness

Edited by Fiery Zac

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52 minutes ago, HairyTeeth said:

I can assure you 100% that if the Championship doesnt finish we will not get relegated and if we dont finish season.

This Greg Clarke/FA stance is just for show. There is no way on this earth they will relegate if Premier League doesnt finish. You cant just punish teams for something which is out of the bottom 3s control, it just wont happen. There is far too much money involved for them to do that. 

A team who has played 37 games promoted to the EPL just wont happen. You have to earn the right and no one has yet.

 

I predict that the EFL will this week resolve to use PPG if their seasons (at all levels) are curtailed and that there should be promotion and relegation from each league. They and the FA will then put pressure on the premier league to do the same. 

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2 hours ago, DraytonBoy said:

Would any of the bottom 6 accept relegation if the PL didn't finish but the Championship did?

That’s why PL clubs must make sure there is an agreement in place before resumption (and hopefully completion) of the season. I’m sure at least 6 would vote that the championship must complete its season for there to be promotion and relegation. Once the league is complete obviously only the bottom 3 would care About relegation so the decision needs to be made now. 

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3 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

That’s how I interpret it. Webber is a clever man and when he decided to start talking (The club had been silent up to then) it was always going to be something he wanted others to take note of and to cause debate.

Dont know how everyone else feels but he just makes me relaxed about how the club is running and how it will conduct itself throughout this madness

I don't think its even our main point. Our main argument will be against relegation on PPG. But you are right it got people talking and its no coincidence in my view that within 24 hours the EFL started saying that the championship is determined to finish when we'd heard nothing about that up until then. i'm still far from convinced that the EFL intends toi finish the championship. They will pretend that they are trying and then will fall back on PPG.

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2 hours ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Carragher is clueless, Neville talks some sense so I'd rather he was the one agreeing 

And, if the virus is carried in droplets of spit, you wouldn't want to be on the other side of a debate with Mr Carragher would you?

😇

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4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I don't think its even our main point. Our main argument will be against relegation on PPG. But you are right it got people talking and its no coincidence in my view that within 24 hours the EFL started saying that the championship is determined to finish when we'd heard nothing about that up until then. i'm still far from convinced that the EFL intends toi finish the championship. They will pretend that they are trying and then will fall back on PPG.

I can see that happening in the EFL too, PPG for each league and promotion/relegation decided on that basis.

The PL is, quite literally, a different league though, and I think it might be tough for them to relegate on the same basis. 

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1 hour ago, HairyTeeth said:

I can assure you 100% that if the Championship doesnt finish we will not get relegated and if we dont finish season

 

Hull apparently starting to apply pressure for the Championship season to be voided. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/may/19/hull-city-break-ranks-and-call-for-championship-season-to-be-voided?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1589910038

In his letter Allam wrote: “I do not presently believe that the 2019-20 season can be safely completed without unnecessarily exposing Championship clubs to potential legal action in the event that one or more of its employees [or their family members] were to become infected with Covid-19.

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6 hours ago, Ian said:

Of course. But they will also have to go into a campaign having had a few weeks rest, versus teams that have had several months'. Given the injury issues we have this season, it's something that could massively affect teams next season as well as this.

I’d rather we had played in the last few months, than not at all, these teams won’t be up to speed

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Has anyone suggested top and bottom teams to decide promotion/relegation by playoffs against each other (instead of auto promotion/relegation)? It would  make sense (at least to me).   

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18 minutes ago, Budapest Canary said:

Has anyone suggested top and bottom teams to decide promotion/relegation by playoffs against each other (instead of auto promotion/relegation)? It would  make sense (at least to me).   

More sense than PPG definitely but I still say it would be unfair. We deserved and achieved our promotion by being the best team in the championship over 46 games. For a team to replace us in the ‘best league in the world’ they should achieve the same thing. If they can’t then unfortunately it’s just tough

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1 hour ago, Budapest Canary said:

Has anyone suggested top and bottom teams to decide promotion/relegation by playoffs against each other (instead of auto promotion/relegation)? It would  make sense (at least to me).   

Well that is probably the best solution every year. Take the top two from the Championship and the bottom two from the Premier League and pit those four teams against each other - essentially a replacement for the current "Championship Playoff" fiasco. 

 

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2 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

I can see that happening in the EFL too, PPG for each league and promotion/relegation decided on that basis.

The PL is, quite literally, a different league though, and I think it might be tough for them to relegate on the same basis. 

The thing is though, if the EFL resolve to promote on the basis of PPG, the EPL either has to refuse to take the promoted clubs (unlikely) or agree to expand temporarily. It’s leaves their options quite limited. Convinced this is the EFL tactic. 

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1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Having playoffs to sort promotion and relegation would be falsifying the already falsified. 

Agreed, not an idea for this year - but for future years, so the clubs could agree to those new rules before the start of the season.... 

It would be much more dramatic don't you think?  It would let the Championship winners win again the next year if they fell at this last hurdle.... and allow for a basket case EPL team to win their reprieve Same formula , two legs home / away and then Wembley. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Agreed, not an idea for this year - but for future years, so the clubs could agree to those new rules before the start of the season.... 

It would be much more dramatic don't you think?  It would let the Championship winners win again the next year if they fell at this last hurdle.... and allow for a basket case EPL team to win their reprieve Same formula , two legs home / away and then Wembley. 

 

Personally, I think the top two from the Championship have earnt the right to play in the Premier League, and it's harsh to make them play another playoff to get there. It also increases the risk of the Premier League becoming a closed shop because the bottom two in the top flight are always far more powerful economically than the top two in the Championship.

If you want add more exciting playoffs, the best way would probably be a 'playout' between 17th and 18th in the Premier League and keeping the second tier playoffs as they are.

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3 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

, I think the top two from the Championship have earnt the right to play in the Premier League

Interesting. Even with Leeds track record of throwing it away no matter how late in the season? Do we deserve to be relegated when teams in the same situation (or worse) have escaped from such a position?

Leeds and West Brom have earned nothing yet. The biggest challenge (as we found out last year) is finally getting over the line. That’s dealing with pressure and expectation, something Leeds have shown they haven’t been able to do recently.
 

For there to be promotion and relegation, the league fixtures need to be completed. Whether that’s behind closed doors, at neutral venues, whatever...the games must be played....in both leagues.

Edited by Fiery Zac
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9 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

The thing is though, if the EFL resolve to promote on the basis of PPG, the EPL either has to refuse to take the promoted clubs (unlikely) or agree to expand temporarily. It’s leaves their options quite limited. Convinced this is the EFL tactic. 

Well, I know it means a reduction in money for each individual club but I think expansion for the PL for the next 2-3 years with an extra club going down each year makes most sense for avoiding the possible lawsuits.

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I'd imagine any such challenge would have to come from within the Championship. In particular I'd expect 3rd place Fulham, who still have to play both Leeds and West Brom, would have something to say about the top 2 being promoted on PPG.

We could maybe argue it given the FA have set a precedent already in non-league by finishing the season on PPG and stating promotion and relegation cannot happen in these circumstances. Additionally, it will be interesting to see what the EFL decide to do with relegation from league 2. This is the most comparable situation and if they decide not to relegate Stevenage out of the league on PPG they cannot expect promotion to the Premier League on PPG either. 

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Mark Palios making the point that PPG is unfair last night. Obviously Tranmere are in the bottom three so he will be accused of self interest but he is someone with some clout who will be part of the EFL discussions today. 

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