If this season is completed in the PL....

[lake district canary 4,531]

.....can there be a legal precedent for the bottom three not to be relegated if the Championship doesn't play it's games to completion?   After all, why should the championship promote anyone when their games have not been completed at the expense of teams who did complete their games? 

[damn that Ralph Coates! 47]

This was Webber's point, but things like the decisive Scottish league decision on Hearts make most of us feel v pessimistic now about our chances.  Null and Void will not be happening anywhere else now either

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Hearts are now thinking they may have been duped so we haven't heard the last of it yet.

The SPL has had its share of threats and counter threats already.

[Uncle Fred 526]

It is now time for the conciliation and arbitration service ACAS to get involved in sorting out this mess 

[ricardo 7,339]

Our best chance of remaining in the Premier League is that none of the leagues are completed and the whole thing is voided as in Scotland etc. Quite apart from self interest it has always seemed to me to be the cleanest solution. I am not saying it is the fairest because whatever happens there will be someone who feels hard done by. Personaly speaking I have long ago accepted that we will be relegated so anything else would be an unexpected bonus.

With the FA also invalidating ppg in its lower leagues, they have already made the argument and are setting a precedent for no promotion or relegation. It therefore becomes difficult for them to legally insist on a different formula for the top leagues. It also becomes a real mess if different leagues attempt to operate different promotion and relegation systems. We could finish with wildly unbalanced leagues and  clubs with virtually no break before starting the next season.

I expect that the money is still the prime concern and this leads to the fanatical insistence to complete the games in both the Premier and the Championship despite health concerns. If the virus continues to decline sharply they might just about get away with it but only time will tell.

If the leagues do not complete I fully expect the relegated sides to take legal action. Why wouldn't they?

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

16 minutes ago, damn that Ralph Coates! said:

This was Webber's point, but things like the decisive Scottish league decision on Hearts make most of us feel v pessimistic now about our chances.  Null and Void will not be happening anywhere else now either

But in Scotland the Premier League didn't finish. The question here was what would happen if the PL was completed and the Championship was not.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

In my view if the premier league plays out then it will be very hard for anyone to challenge relegation, even if the EFL has not finished. Morally and in terms of sporting integrity I think that position would be wrong but I think the line would be that we have been legitimately relegated and it is then up to the EFL as to how they settle the championship. I suppose the premier league could try and refuse to admit clubs from an incomplete championship but based on the statements of the EFL and the FA so far, they would be pushing the premier league hard not to do this.

So clubs could try but i'm not convinced they would have a strong case and to be honest if we have finished our 38 games and finished in the bottom three can we really argue that its unfair unless the remaining games prove to be a farce (other teams play kids etc)?

If, however, we were relegated on PPG without completing the season then I do think we would have a case. Not necessarily a case we would be guaranteed to win but an arguable case that I would hope we would pursue and I suppose in those circumstances if the championship has also not completed and they are trying to replace us with teams from that league then its certainly not unhelpful to our case in terms of highlighting how inequitable it all is.

So whilst I think it was right for Webber to highlight this as a matter of sporting integrity, I think that there is probably only a credible legal argument we could consider pursuing if we are relegated on PPG. Just my opinion though.

 

 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

Interestingly the telegraph reporting today that Hull have written to the EFL calling for the champ season to be voided.

[DraytonBoy 142]

Before any games are played the EFL and the PL have to reach an agreement on promotion and relegation otherwise there is little point in even trying to get the season completed.

[JF 694]

The Championship are now saying they want to begin training on Monday. The problem they have though is that there is no guarantee that the Welsh teams will be allowed to return to training, let alone host matches. I’m adamant that if both leagues don’t reach a natural conclusion then promotion and relegation should be scrapped. I don’t think it will be though.

Edited May 19, 2020 by JF

[ricardo 7,339]

4 minutes ago, DraytonBoy said:

Before any games are played the EFL and the PL have to reach an agreement on promotion and relegation otherwise there is little point in even trying to get the season completed.

This is why it should have been voided. We are now in danger of three teams playing on into August and being relegated into a league that has had a long layoff. The whole thing becomes rapidly untenable.

[cornish sam 942]

Just now, ricardo said:

This is why it should have been voided. We are now in danger of three teams playing on into August and being relegated into a league that has had a long layoff. The whole thing becomes rapidly untenable.

The problem is though that neither the fa not EFL want to have a precedent set for no relegation from the prem. They are sh1t scared of the prem being a closed shop as has been mooted on occasion (e.g. with the PL2 proposals).

[Ian 1,129]

4 minutes ago, ricardo said:

This is why it should have been voided. We are now in danger of three teams playing on into August and being relegated into a league that has had a long layoff. The whole thing becomes rapidly untenable.

Yep, when the bottom three Prem teams are relegated, they stand to be punished multiple times because of the Covid pandemic, both in terms of loss of revenue this season, and future prospects next season and beyond. Could be absolutely devastating for those clubs, and they should throw the book at the EPL/FA if this use case does indeed transpire.

[ricardo 7,339]

6 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

The problem is though that neither the fa not EFL want to have a precedent set for no relegation from the prem. They are sh1t scared of the prem being a closed shop as has been mooted on occasion (e.g. with the PL2 proposals).

The only precedent set would be for a season that cannot physically complete because of outside circumstances. In fact we already have that for the season prior to WW2. Attempting to use ppg where it suits you and voiding where it doesn't is certainly going to invite legal challenge.

Edited May 19, 2020 by ricardo

[Essjayess 307]

Not really related to the topic question, but personally im not at all cared if we stay in the Prem or get relegated, but what i can see happening is City getting bad luck once again in a cup competition.

Can see the FA Cup getting scrapped, missing a great  chance to beat Man U to get within touching distance of a first FA Cup final, it was enough once in a lifetime to have the '85 Cup final win happen then being robbed of a European place.

In the Prem / Champs scenario promotion / relegation is almost commonplace for us, but cup finals are a rare thing so to get  such bad luck from two different disasters is very sad indeed.

[ricardo 7,339]

1 minute ago, Essjayess said:

Not really related to the topic question, but personally im not at all cared if we stay in the Prem or get relegated, but what i can see happening is City getting bad luck once again in a cup competition.

Can see the FA Cup getting scrapped, missing a great  chance to beat Man U to get within touching distance of a first FA Cup final, it was enough once in a lifetime to have the '85 Cup final win happen then being robbed of a European place.

In the Prem / Champs scenario promotion / relegation is almost commonplace for us, but cup finals are a rare thing so to get  such bad luck from two different disasters is very sad indeed.

It would only be hard luck if we had progressed to the final. I am not that fussed about abandonment at the quarter final stage. Finance wise an unexpected reprieve from relegation would in the longer run but much more beneficial.

[Mello Yello 2,278]

It's like a Brian Rix farce.....

[cornish sam 942]

6 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The only precedent set would be for a season that cannot physically complete because of outside circumstances. In fact we already have that for the season prior to WW2. Attempting to use ppg where it suits you and voiding where it doesn't is certainly going to invite legal challenge.

I know that, you know that, most rational people know that, but, people with vested interest behave irrationally.

[cornish sam 942]

2 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

It's like a Brian Rix farce.....

Not a Graham Rix farce? Actually it was cheeky smiles he specialises in...

[ricardo 7,339]

28 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

I know that, you know that, most rational people know that, but, people with vested interest behave irrationally.

Indeed, such is life.😉

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 526]

46 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

The problem is though that neither the fa not EFL want to have a precedent set for no relegation from the prem. They are sh1t scared of the prem being a closed shop as has been mooted on occasion (e.g. with the PL2 proposals).

The money men won't let that happen until they've got Leeds and Sunderland back into the Prem and lost minnows like Bournemouth, Watford and probably us.

[Dr Greenthumb 746]

46 minutes ago, Ian said:

Yep, when the bottom three Prem teams are relegated, they stand to be punished multiple times because of the Covid pandemic, both in terms of loss of revenue this season, and future prospects next season and beyond. Could be absolutely devastating for those clubs, and they should throw the book at the EPL/FA if this use case does indeed transpire.

But the clubs will receive parachute payments 

[dylanisabaddog 4,859]

The original post from LDC asked about the legal position if the EPL plays to a conclusion but the Championship doesn't. Like the rest of you, I think it would be morally dubious to relegate us on that basis but legally I suspect it is up to the EFL who they promote and it's none of our business. 

[Ian 1,129]

4 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

But the clubs will receive parachute payments 

Of course. But they will also have to go into a campaign having had a few weeks rest, versus teams that have had several months'. Given the injury issues we have this season, it's something that could massively affect teams next season as well as this.

[City 101 83]

Jamie Carragher said this morning on Sky that Webber’s stance on no relegation if the Premier finishes but the Championship doesn’t Is a non starter and the bottom 3 go down and the Premier league has no say on how the Championship decides to finish . 
We should just say that’s it and we are finished for the season stop the circus because whatever happens we are going to end up relegated . 

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

1 hour ago, DraytonBoy said:

Before any games are played the EFL and the PL have to reach an agreement on promotion and relegation otherwise there is little point in even trying to get the season completed.

We must not kick another ball unless it is decided and agreed how the Championship will be completed and on what basis promotion and relegation will be determined. This should also include what happens if the restart is suspended due to another outbreak.

The money grabbers and those who couldn't care less ethics may think they have won, but there is so much to be decided yet before this season completes.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

38 minutes ago, Essjayess said:

Not really related to the topic question, but personally im not at all cared if we stay in the Prem or get relegated, but what i can see happening is City getting bad luck once again in a cup competition.

Can see the FA Cup getting scrapped, missing a great  chance to beat Man U to get within touching distance of a first FA Cup final, it was enough once in a lifetime to have the '85 Cup final win happen then being robbed of a European place.

In the Prem / Champs scenario promotion / relegation is almost commonplace for us, but cup finals are a rare thing so to get  such bad luck from two different disasters is very sad indeed.

Agreed, I've said many times before how much I dislike the Prem and how I much prefer to watch Championship football so relegation isn't a disaster as far as I'm concerned, although I do still think that it should only happen if/when the season is completed properly and not as result of an artificial (which includes playing in empty stadiums) finish to the season.

But the potentially different decisions on how to finish different leagues and absolutely as far as abandoning the Cup is concerned shows what total lie the line about the integrity of the game is. Quite frankly, I think it is absolutely disgusting and really highlights what the Premiership has always been about right from the start - sheer naked greed. Football, and sport are irrelevant, money is the only concern and I think this is the end of watching professional football for me.

Shame in a way since I've loved watching it all my life, and the current city team are right up there IMO with the Bayern Munich team as the two best (exciting and entertaining) city teams I've ever seen but after listening to the total hypocrisy of the last few weeks I really have no desire whatsoever to watch football any more, in fact I think I'd feel 'dirty' watching it and actually after the initial break with the rhythym of games, which was a bit of a shock, I find I'm not actually missing it at all.

 

[king canary 7,577]

13 minutes ago, Ian said:

Of course. But they will also have to go into a campaign having had a few weeks rest, versus teams that have had several months'. Given the injury issues we have this season, it's something that could massively affect teams next season as well as this.

On the flip side you could argue we'd actually be better off initially than teams that haven't kicked a ball competitively since March. 

[Barbe bleu 812]

13 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The original post from LDC asked about the legal position if the EPL plays to a conclusion but the Championship doesn't. Like the rest of you, I think it would be morally dubious to relegate us on that basis but legally I suspect it is up to the EFL who they promote and it's none of our business. 

Seems sensible.  If there is a good chance the PL cannot finish in the usual way im not sure that the club should say anything that suggests the PL and football league are anything other than two entirely distinct entities that have their own rules.

I'm  not sure why webber is giving interviews on this. If legal action were contemplated most lawyers would advise you to stfu and, especially, stay away from television interviews.

 

[sgncfc 1,221]

All good, sensible points of view but unfortunately the only thing that really matters is that 14 clubs vote in favour of something. If they do that, legal action is simply not possible, unless the vote is somehow unfair or based on incorrect information - this is Hearts's only slight possibility of legal action, as the majority voted for them to be relegated.

If we play to a finish in a manner agreed by 14 of the clubs then if we finish in the bottom 3 we will be relegated unless 14 clubs also agree to suspend relegation/promotion and that is not vetoed by the FA as they have suggested they would do.

I don't think the position is affected by how the EFL choose to finish their season, but if they ratify no relegation from League Two, the EPL will have a precedent to argue against them using their veto on the PL, if there are 14 clubs who want to cancel relegation/promotion.

My gut feeling though is that if the EPL play to a finish there won't be 14 clubs who will then be prepared to vote for cancelling relegation.

So - if we play and finish in the bottom 3, I reckon we go down. Win 6 out of our 9 remaining matches, we stay up.