Todders .

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

34 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

FFS it's a football forum where people express views.  I'm not griping at a player either, I'm simply saying what I have seen and what I have picked up from what the manager says - and if you listen to Daniel carefully, he gives very clear messages about players and what they need to do - and it is often clear who he is talking about....but I'm sorry if I've offended any delicate Norwich fans who may have been traumatised to see criticism of one of our players.

As for Snodgrass, he was likewise a player who some people could not bear to see criticised, but like it or not any player can look good on the face of it - but at the same time have an effect on a team that is not necessarily positive.  Young players can make costly mistakes because they are young - and they have to learn, older players, such as Snoddy, ought to know better and if they haven't learned by the time they are 26 or 27, there isn't much chance of them changing.  Todd needs to develop and improve and he would presumably agree with that, he has everything going for him in that way, as long as he keeps his feet on the ground.  

For someone always preaching positivity you sure are focusing on Toddwell’s negatives here. Maybe you should get behind our player 👍🏻

[Pugin 601]

The whole discussion is absolutely bizarre. We could all go over-the-top with effusive praise of any player, or alternatively pick holes in any player in the world (with the possible exception of Messi, who is possibly so good that he defies criticism.)

But to focus on the hackneyed old chestnuts such as Todd's use of the ball or care in possession is....well, it's strange and I don't understand how anyone an watch our games and not just be thankful. If Todd steers clear of injury he will have to go at some stage. It's definitely a question of you never know what you've got till it's gone (which I was about to attribute to Mr Dylan whereas it is of course a Joni Mitchell line). 

Be that all as it may...I think we are wasting our time trying to persuade LDC 🙂 

[First Wazzock 902]

It's the fist time I've looked at this thread

Every time I've looked at it before i haven't had my glasses on and thought it said todgers...

[lake district canary 4,531]

15 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

For someone always preaching positivity you sure are focusing on Toddwell’s negatives here. Maybe you should get behind our player 👍🏻

Why are you so afraid of people giving both sides of a player? I am behind every player we have, including Todd and have praised his attributes, his potential and pretty much everything about him, but I also appreciate he is not as good as he could be yet.  That will come with time and development, but at the moment he is still on a steep learning curve.  The signs are good because he is getting better and the last few games before the stoppage he started looking more assertive and that penalty was composure personified - so he is growing as a player almost weekly - and for that you have to credit Daniel Farke for facilitating that as well as the player himself.  It's all good news - and criticism can be a positive if taken correctly.  It's all about balance.

[hogesar 9,618]

Lakey, just to make clear, I have no issue with you criticising Todd. I dont think HHH or King does either.

Not speaking for them, but my issue is the things you're criticising him for aren't actually true; or more pertinently aren't a Todd issue and are actually down to the way we are setup to play.

Edited May 21, 2020 by hogesar

[lake district canary 4,531]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Lakey, just to make clear, I have no issue with you criticising Todd. I dont think HHH or King does either.

Not speaking for them, but my issue is the things you're criticising him for aren't actually true; or more pertinently aren't a Todd issue and are actually down to the way we are setup to play.

Well I disagree with that premise too.  There are times when players have to take on a defender or at least threaten to, but even if the idea is to pass and move or whatever you want to call it, then a creative player has to look to create rather than just lay off an easy pass without even showing any inclination to make a telling pass. I watched him closely at the last game I went to and he made two creative passes in the whole match, the rest of the time just moving the ball on to the closest player to him, often not even looking up to see what else might be on.  That by any accounts is not enough and is a question of getting the balance right - he has the ability to do anything he wants on a pitch, but if he is not acting assertively or is not confident enough to take responsibility to make a telling pass or at least trying to, then that will affect his performances.  I'll not repeat stuff I've said on here again, suffice to say I've have lavished praise on him and have seen him improve in lots of ways, including the last few games where he responded to Farke's call for players to take more responsibility on the pitch, but he is not imo yet in the Maddison class who for me is the benchmark for a player who may leave Norwich and go on to better things.  I think Todd needs another year with us.

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

19 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Well I disagree with that premise too.  There are times when players have to take on a defender or at least threaten to, but even if the idea is to pass and move or whatever you want to call it, then a creative player has to look to create rather than just lay off an easy pass without even showing any inclination to make a telling pass. I watched him closely at the last game I went to and he made two creative passes in the whole match, the rest of the time just moving the ball on to the closest player to him, often not even looking up to see what else might be on.  That by any accounts is not enough and is a question of getting the balance right - he has the ability to do anything he wants on a pitch, but if he is not acting assertively or is not confident enough to take responsibility to make a telling pass or at least trying to, then that will affect his performances.  I'll not repeat stuff I've said on here again, suffice to say I've have lavished praise on him and have seen him improve in lots of ways, including the last few games where he responded to Farke's call for players to take more responsibility on the pitch, but he is not imo yet in the Maddison class who for me is the benchmark for a player who may leave Norwich and go on to better things.  I think Todd needs another year with us.

If one sentence summed up LDC’s activity on this forum 🤭🤣

[rock bus 850]

I’ve got a lot of time for Todd and think his development this year has been exceptional. Sure he’s not ‘the finished article’ -how many players at his age are? But the way he has gone from bit part championship players to at least one of our best premier league players has to be admired.

I also like his positive approach and desire to be the best (which does come with a bit of needed cockiness).

My son plays a lot of football and has similar playing style to Todd in that he is a clever little player capable of some brilliant stuff but is a ‘bit lightweight’ and is reliant on his confidence being high for him to play his best. I often use Todd as a reference to him as someone who has really worked hard to improve and is striving to get better.

I hope Todd does stay with us for another season as I think that would be best for us and his development but if he does go to a ‘bigger’ club I’ll be pleased that a local lad is making the best of his life and achieving his dreams.

[hogesar 9,618]

9 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Well I disagree with that premise too.  There are times when players have to take on a defender or at least threaten to, but even if the idea is to pass and move or whatever you want to call it, then a creative player has to look to create rather than just lay off an easy pass without even showing any inclination to make a telling pass. I watched him closely at the last game I went to and he made two creative passes in the whole match, the rest of the time just moving the ball on to the closest player to him, often not even looking up to see what else might be on.  That by any accounts is not enough and is a question of getting the balance right - he has the ability to do anything he wants on a pitch, but if he is not acting assertively or is not confident enough to take responsibility to make a telling pass or at least trying to, then that will affect his performances.  I'll not repeat stuff I've said on here again, suffice to say I've have lavished praise on him and have seen him improve in lots of ways, including the last few games where he responded to Farke's call for players to take more responsibility on the pitch, but he is not imo yet in the Maddison class who for me is the benchmark for a player who may leave Norwich and go on to better things.  I think Todd needs another year with us.

But Maddison was excelling for us at Championship level.

Todd is excelling for us at Premier League level.

They're also quite different players.

You can't just benchmark Maddison for every other player. It doesn't make sense.

[dylanisabaddog 4,877]

First time I've read this thread and I'm a bit surprised by some of the criticism. When Todd scored his first couple of goals in the Premier League I thought he just happened to be lucky. But it has carried on happening and he gets into goalscoring positions consistently. OK, he's not got the skill of Emi but neither did Lampard. In fact Lampard's main ability was arriving in the penalty box at the right time and scoring. I don't really care if Todd moves the ball sideways as long as the player receiving the ball is a better passer. 

My only criticism is Todd's tendency to give the ball away in silly positions but he's a kid and that's an easy thing to learn with experience. And I suppose that he's a bit short on pace but so was Lampard. 

Overall, to score that many goals from midfield in the Premier League for a team which is bottom is quite an achievement. Those goals won't be easy to replace. 

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

10 hours ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

For someone always preaching positivity you sure are focusing on Toddwell’s negatives here. Maybe you should get behind our player 👍🏻

And to say it in the way that you have LDC makes it come across as you are right no matter what other people think.

Todd is an interesting one, like LDC I end up player watching, never used to but once I became a qualified coach it became the norm to focus on a specific player for a time to see where they need developing etc.

You cannot liken Todd to Maddison, as others have pointed out they were playing in different leagues against different quality of players, you also have to take into consideration (as others have said) the way in which the team is set up and asked to play.

Todd is clearly not fully developed and is still young and learning, granted some younger are further ahead but this is his first proper full season playing as last season he wasnt a guaranteed starter, I believe he is now one of the first names on the team sheet when we play our normal system.

He's a very intelligent footballer, the job of a midfield player is to find pockets of space and to move the ball on and look for the next space, he's excellent at this, maybe he should be more confident at taking people on but as the vid showed he is exceptionally comfortable with the ball at his feet but not every pass that he's going to play is going to be that killer pass.

It's clearly easy to pick out negatives in every player, I'm sure if I did a study on Messi I could find areas he needs to develop or do better, no one is perfect......remember that.

[lake district canary 4,531]

The comparison with Maddison was not about the way he plays - they are obviously different in style of play - but more to do with the overall maturity and completeness of his game which is what enabled Maddison to step up straight away into a very good PL side competing at the top of the game.  The premise of this OP was to highlight why Liverpool might want him as a player and I have merely highlighted what I see as his good points and where he can improve and why I think he might do better waiting a year when he might have a better chance of stepping straight into a top team like Maddison has done.  That is not negative, I think I have been fair in my criticism, as I said, he has responded to Farke's demands for  being more assertive in front of goal after several games where he kept missing the target and later in the season where the calls were to step up and be a bit more assertive in the top half of the field, so it is all good.  

 

[king canary 7,580]

11 hours ago, hogesar said:

Lakey, just to make clear, I have no issue with you criticising Todd. I dont think HHH or King does either.

Not speaking for them, but my issue is the things you're criticising him for aren't actually true; or more pertinently aren't a Todd issue and are actually down to the way we are setup to play.

Exactly this. No issue with criticism but it needs to make some sense.

 

11 hours ago, lake district canary said:

There are times when players have to take on a defender or at least threaten to, but even if the idea is to pass and move or whatever you want to call it, then a creative player has to look to create rather than just lay off an easy pass without even showing any inclination to make a telling pass.

This is all true but fundamentally it doesn't apply to Cantwell. 

According to WhoScored Cantwell has had 31 key passes (ie passes that lead to a chance) this season. That is more than the following players....

Son Heung Min

Nathan Redmond

Wilf Zaha

Jordan Henderson

Marcus Rashford

Daniel James

Diego Jota

Dele Alli

In comparison to the rest of our team, he's way behind Buendia (4th highest in the whole league) but higher than anyone else. 

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

46 minutes ago, king canary said:

Exactly this. No issue with criticism but it needs to make some sense.

 

This is all true but fundamentally it doesn't apply to Cantwell. 

According to WhoScored Cantwell has had 31 key passes (ie passes that lead to a chance) this season. That is more than the following players....

Son Heung Min

Nathan Redmond

Wilf Zaha

Jordan Henderson

Marcus Rashford

Daniel James

Diego Jota

Dele Alli

In comparison to the rest of our team, he's way behind Buendia (4th highest in the whole league) but higher than anyone else. 

Love a stat and that's an interesting.

Not that I'm a cynic about stats as unless it's clear how it's calculated they can mean many things, however on the basis that everyone is being judged the same he's certainly outperforming some that you wouldn't expect.

The lad has a massive future, if we can keep hold of him for another season it would be great but I suspect not as he's a great age now to move on to the next step.

I tend to compare him to a Grealish and I'll put it out there that I think that Todd will become a better player so would fully expect one of the big 6 to come knocking.

[Pugin 601]

2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

That is not negative, I think I have been fair in my criticism, as I said, he has responded to Farke's demands for  being more assertive in front of goal after several games where he kept missing the target and later in the season where the calls were to step up and be a bit more assertive in the top half of the field, so it is all good.  

 

What???? You are just making up Todd quotes and attributing them to Daniel. Madness.

Yes, we have players who need to be more assertive at the top end of the pitch. Like every midfield player apart from Todd!  

[lake district canary 4,531]

24 minutes ago, Pugin said:

3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

That is not negative, I think I have been fair in my criticism, as I said, he has responded to Farke's demands for  being more assertive in front of goal after several games where he kept missing the target and later in the season where the calls were to step up and be a bit more assertive in the top half of the field, so it is all good.  

 

What???? You are just making up Todd quotes and attributing them to Daniel. Madness.

Yes, we have players who need to be more assertive at the top end of the pitch. Like every midfield player apart from Todd!  

No I am not. When Daniel speaks it is very clear, even without naming names, who he is talking about - and I haven't heard any "Todd quotes". 

[sonyc 5,492]

I've been really pleased with his improvement this season. It was unexpected for me. He was good last season but more incisive in the present. Clearly Farke likes him as he has had lots of starts. He would be in my team ahead of Stiepermann any day. He frustrates at times in overplaying and trying audacious things. Yet, I can forgive that.

I don't think he will be with us next season.

[Ian 1,129]

17 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

No I am not. When Daniel speaks it is very clear, even without naming names, who he is talking about - and I haven't heard any "Todd quotes". 

Out of interest, what quotes are they? If they are purely about assertiveness in front of goal, I would suggest they would be levelled at many other players in the squad rather than one of our top scorers.

For me he's been an absolute surprise this season, and been one of our top overall performers - as his stats suggest. Delighted a local lad who has come through the academy has achieved so much at this level.

[lake district canary 4,531]

25 minutes ago, Ian said:

Out of interest, what quotes are they? If they are purely about assertiveness in front of goal, I would suggest they would be levelled at many other players in the squad rather than one of our top scorers.
 

If you listen to Daniel Farke closely, he quite often has clear messages in his after match comments which can be attributed to single player or to multiple players.   On occasion he will name a player, but often he doesn't but it will be clear who he is talking about.  The goal comments came after a run of three or four games early in the season in which Todd had clearcut long range shooting chances which he wasted - and if you listened to exactly what DF said, it didn't take a genius to interpret DF's comments as being about Todd.

The being more assertive comments were just a few weeks before the stoppage and again it was about players being more effective as they moved forwards - and again - if you listened carefully to his words, it was clearly aimed at his prize young midfielders - in this case I remember thinking those comments were aimed particularly at Todd and Emi.

Both times Todd improved - both in his shooting and later on in the season his outfield effectiveness - and I commented after one match how impressed I was that he had responded to DF's words.  

If I had time I would look back and try and find the comments. I love DF and his way with words and how he speaks - he rarely says anything that isn't well thought out and his analysis of situations and of people is usually spot on.  Todd is intelligent and will listen to his manager - and I hope ignore the idiots who denegrate him - but the development of Todd is closely linked to the way Daniel is progressing him as a player - and I have certainly heard and seen that in his progress this season.

[Surfer 1,547]

Different angle for a moment. Todd v Wes... who is the more creative player of the two? Who is better defensively out of those two? 

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

32 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Different angle for a moment. Todd v Wes... who is the more creative player of the two? Who is better defensively out of those two? 

Good question.

Always been a Wes fan (well apart from the Villa moment) but all round Wes is better at both at the moment.....he never got much praise for his defensive work.

[Duncan Edwards 2,223]

2 hours ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Good question.

Always been a Wes fan (well apart from the Villa moment) but all round Wes is better at both at the moment.....he never got much praise for his defensive work.

You might be right; what I would say is that I think Cantwell will spend the majority of his career playing in the Premier League.

 

Now, I love Wes and I'm not picking favourites or saying one is better than the other but...

[king canary 7,580]

3 hours ago, Duncan Edwards said:

You might be right; what I would say is that I think Cantwell will spend the majority of his career playing in the Premier League.

 

Now, I love Wes and I'm not picking favourites or saying one is better than the other but...

I think Wes would have been a longer term Premier League player if he came through now.

I think quite a few managers didn't know how to use a player like him- he was considered a left winger when he joined us, a position he clearly didn't suit.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

8 hours ago, king canary said:

- he was considered a left winger when he joined us, a position he clearly didn't suit.

Unlike Dorrans, who was a natural on the left.