Whose mad idea is Points per Game?

[Jezzard 16]

Using points per game to decide incomplete leagues is on the whole accepted within journalism, ex-players and seemingly administrators. But it is flawed. The mean average is a statistic – it informs what has happened but isn’t predictive as to what will happen. And we have so much evidence (West Brom ‘05, Portsmouth ‘06, Fulham ’08, Wigan ’12, Leicester ’14, Sunderland each time we go down to name a few off the top of my head) that using it as a predictor is flawed. It would be quite easy to show that often the average points after 38 matches is significantly different from after 29. A bugbear is that while pundits like to appear sophisticated by talking about “complex” statistical concepts such as a mean, in a league 90% of teams have played the same number of matches, it’s identical to freezing the table at an arbitrary date. What if the suspension had happened after 9 or 19 matches? We could have still worked out average points (or frozen the table then). The logic seems “well after 29 matches we’ve played most of the games, and this gives positions which would probably not change that much”? So poitns per game is nonsense, but this isn’t the point. The point is using this would represent about the biggest regulation change imaginable mid-season, and one that teams can’t respond to. Presumably there is nothing in the Premier League regulations on incomplete seasons, or we wouldn’t be discussing how to decide final positions. It’s amazing given the turnover and staff at the Premier League, that no one ever thought to write a regulation to cover this. How is it allowed to change the regulation mid-season? Whose mad idea was it? Is the one regulation that matters that if 14 clubs vote for a law change mid-season, anything can happen? Can they vote that Brighton to go down as their chief exec is annoying some other clubs?

 

Which gets me on to the championship…..why is it widely accepted that Leeds and West Brom should go up? A 7 point gap in the championship can disappear in a week, and usually does in Leads’ case, but again, this isn’t the point. All the Premier League teams earned the right last May to compete for 38 matches (19) home and away to finish as high as they can and the top 17 remain in the division; the championship teams earned the right to play 46 matches (23) home and away to finish (yes finish) in the top 2 (or win the play offs) to go up. If either (not neither) cannot be completed, then no one has earned/ forfeited the right to swap divisions. Null and void is the only means to solve this. Yes, there will be winners and losers who will be lucky and unlucky, but you accept luck and bad luck in sport. Average points/ freezing the table contravenes the existing sporting laws and regulations, which isn’t acceptable and surely be crushed legally.  

[DraytonBoy 142]

So if Liverpool had already won the PL and Norwich had already been relegated null and void would still have been the only right and fair way to resolve this?

[Jezzard 16]

In an unlikely event of an incomplete season where all title and relegation issues have been decided, then you could luckily avoid null and voiding the season as consensus would probably be reached that the season is effectively finished. In the past some postponed dead rubbers have not been played. Otherwise in the absense of regulation, then yes, null and void is the only option and far superior imposing a rule change mid- season. I’m not saying it’s fair and it’s not about Norwich. It’s just ridiculous the leagues don’t have regulation to cover this.

[Ian 1,129]

3 hours ago, DraytonBoy said:

So if Liverpool had already won the PL and Norwich had already been relegated null and void would still have been the only right and fair way to resolve this?

If Liverpool had already won the league, and the European/relegation places sorted - do you think the Premier League would even be considering risking a restart?

[City fan 78]

The premiership has proved again and again over recent weeks it's all about the money. Football is secondary. And who the fxck do the supposed big six think they are shouting the odds threatening clubs with relagation if they, the perceived small clubs, don't play ball. 

[Cyan 3]

Null and void is the 'only option'.

PPG totally unfair. 

Hmmm

Checks to see where Norwich sit in the league. 

 

Ah of course 😊

 

 

[Ian 1,129]

7 minutes ago, City fan said:

The premiership has proved again and again over recent weeks it's all about the money. Football is secondary. And who the fxck do the supposed big six think they are shouting the odds threatening clubs with relagation if they, the perceived small clubs, don't play ball. 

Correct.

All the talk about the "integrity of the game" is a thinly-veiled smokescreen to cover the panic of the EPL and the big clubs worrying that they may not be able to meet their obligations and have financial difficulties because of it. I don't recall anybody worrying about the integrity of the "game of the people" when suggesting they decide league standings on fag-packet maths, or some ridiculous closed-door scenario without fans.

Ultimately, it's either safe to restart and finish the season as every other season in EPL history has concluded, or it isn't. The EPL members will all act in their own self-interest, but to pretend it's about the integrity of the game is insulting to the fans that make the sport what it is.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

Didn't we have our fair share of things going against us in 1985 and 89 when we were banned (as a result of Liverpool fans at Heysel Stadium) we missed out on two qualifications for Europe.    They should remember that!    

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Null and void is the 'only option'.

PPG totally unfair. 

Hmmm

Checks to see where Norwich sit in the league. 

 

Ah of course

The colour is in the name

[JF 694]

Anyone that thinks that relegation on ppg won’t result in months of legal action from the bottom 3 that would result in next season not starting anywhere near on time are quite deluded 

[Cyan 3]

Bottom 6 crying about integrity. 

Can't play with this virus around they say. 

Unless relegation is taken off the table then it's ok

 Integrity. Yes indeed folks. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

47 minutes ago, Cyan said:

Null and void is the 'only option'.

PPG totally unfair. 

Hmmm

Checks to see where Norwich sit in the league. 

 

Ah of course 😊

 

 

Where we sit in the league is irrelevant. If you take a step back from this and look at it objectively then finishing the full season (in both divisions) or voiding it are really the only two fair options. Anything in between involves producing a false outcome to the season. 

Why is it that if a game has to be abandoned (even after 80 minutes) it gets replayed in full? That for me is the nearest analogeous rule to this situation.

[Disco Dales Jockstrap 1,891]

45 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Didn't we have our fair share of things going against us in 1985 and 89 when we were banned (as a result of Liverpool fans at Heysel Stadium) we missed out on two qualifications for Europe.    They should remember that!    

And 87. 

OTBC

[Jim Smith 2,314]

28 minutes ago, Cyan said:

Bottom 6 crying about integrity. 

Can't play with this virus around they say. 

Unless relegation is taken off the table then it's ok

 Integrity. Yes indeed folks. 

Bottom 6 aren't saying that. Only suckers who have fallen for the "Big 6" media/bullying campaign think that they are.

[JF 694]

Just now, Jim Smith said:

Bottom 6 aren't saying that. Only suckers who have fallen for the "Big 6" media/bullying campaign think that they are.

Probably best ignored, signed up the other day and these are their first two posts. I’ll go out on a limb and guess it’s a Leeds fan 

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

11 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Bottom 6 aren't saying that. Only suckers who have fallen for the "Big 6" media/bullying campaign think that they are.

Yep and people that believe everything that they read in Twitter 🤦‍♂️

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

9 minutes ago, JF said:

Probably best ignored, signed up the other day and these are their first two posts. I’ll go out on a limb and guess it’s a Leeds fan 

Not enough spelling mistakes for that lot down the road.

[Ian 1,129]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Null and void is the 'only option'.

PPG totally unfair. 

Hmmm

Checks to see where Norwich sit in the league. 

 

Ah of course

The colour is in the name

Wrong.

[Cyan 3]

'Where we sit in the league is irrelevant'

Yeah, course it is 🤣🤣

[Pugin 601]

47 minutes ago, Cyan said:

Bottom 6 crying about integrity. 

Can't play with this virus around they say. 

Unless relegation is taken off the table then it's ok

 Integrity. Yes indeed folks. 

OK, I'll bite. I know I shouldn't do, and that you are not here for the long haul, but despite all that I will still bite.

• There is benefit to the country's economy to resume Premier games quickly. Therefore 'return to work' is not the issue.
• There is a real and tangible risk of exposing professional athletes to potential infection. If say 5 or 10 players do become infected during the Resume process, it will put proper resumption back months if not years.
• Who in their right mind would risk the death (we are talking about potential death) if not essential.
• Can you imaging the effect of only one player at your club becoming infected, and dying? Can you?
• There is evidence growing that the fitter the individual, the more potential damage the virus will cause.
• We do not have any concept of the long term effect of the virus.
• Do you understand how mentality traumatic the experience will be for all those players and non-players involved, and their loved ones? Think about it.
• We don't yet understand why BAME people appear more susceptible to the virus.
• There will be players who find a way of avoiding playing. Who can blame them. They deserve support.
• We don't know if you can be tested 'Negative' on Day One but be 'Positive' the next day (game day). 
• A return to playing behind closed doors will be artificial in every sense. It will prove little.
• The country will be teetering around the +1 'R' rate in a month's time. We are playing with fire to have unnecessary mass gatherings such as games of football.
• Think of the message it would send to the population. Relax folks, you will be OK.

 

So no, we can't play while this virus is around. At least, not until it is fully understood and we are able to mitigate the risks. If we don't understand the risks, how do we know that any mitigation is adequate?

Someone needs to knock this on the head very soon. The Government and EPL will not, the PFA should but won't as frankly they are not intellectually capable or inclined, the clubs could but it remains to be seen if they will. 

Please respond.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, Pugin said:

OK, I'll bite. I know I shouldn't do, and that you are not here for the long haul, but despite all that I will still bite.

• There is benefit to the country's economy to resume Premier games quickly. Therefore 'return to work' is not the issue.
• There is a real and tangible risk of exposing professional athletes to potential infection. If say 5 or 10 players do become infected during the Resume process, it will put proper resumption back months if not years.
• Who in their right mind would risk the death (we are talking about potential death) if not essential.
• Can you imaging the effect of only one player at your club becoming infected, and dying? Can you?
• There is evidence growing that the fitter the individual, the more potential damage the virus will cause.
• We do not have any concept of the long term effect of the virus.
• Do you understand how mentality traumatic the experience will be for all those players and non-players involved, and their loved ones? Think about it.
• We don't yet understand why BAME people appear more susceptible to the virus.
• There will be players who find a way of avoiding playing. Who can blame them. They deserve support.
• We don't know if you can be tested 'Negative' on Day One but be 'Positive' the next day (game day). 
• A return to playing behind closed doors will be artificial in every sense. It will prove little.
• The country will be teetering around the +1 'R' rate in a month's time. We are playing with fire to have unnecessary mass gatherings such as games of football.
• Think of the message it would send to the population. Relax folks, you will be OK.

 

So no, we can't play while this virus is around. At least, not until it is fully understood and we are able to mitigate the risks. If we don't understand the risks, how do we know that any mitigation is adequate?

Someone needs to knock this on the head very soon. The Government and EPL will not, the PFA should but won't as frankly they are not intellectually capable or inclined, the clubs could but it remains to be seen if they will. 

Please respond.

Don't be all logical and factual with him 😂

As I've said on here many times about our resident know-it-all; you can't reason with an idiot as they're an idiot for a reason 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,777]

12 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Don't be all logical and factual with him 😂

As I've said on here many times about our resident know-it-all; you can't reason with an idiot as they're an idiot for a reason 

Which one?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,735]

Keep hearing from fans of other clubs (primarily the inedifying and classless Liverpool) trot out lines of 'if you're down there after 29 games you deserve to go down" ....for some clubs , still being in touching distance and still having a chance to avoid relegation with 9 games left is considered a success at this stage of the season...with 27 points still to play for

[nutty nigel 7,509]

If the season is made nul and void is it still 4,041 days since we lost to the binners...

[Borman 0]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Null and void is the 'only option'.

PPG totally unfair. 

Hmmm

Checks to see where Norwich sit in the league. 

 

Ah of course

The colour is in the name

But Drayton boys Leeds are top of the league. Likewise Liverpool and all those others who want the league to finish. So do we need to silence their solutions too? Surely we too would be willing to take selfish risks if we stand to be the beneficiaries.

So who do we listen to? I'm sure Norwich fans 12 months ago would be of the exact same opinion Leeds fans are in right now... But does it make us right then or now?

Why do you think PPG is fair? Is it right to promote a team that hadn't yet earnt promotion while relegating 3 that didn't yet get relegated ?

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

34 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Which one?

Oh deary dearie me, I can't possibly say

But even if he does comment, I don't get to see it anyway 😂

[Jim Smith 2,314]

5 minutes ago, Borman said:

But Drayton boys Leeds are top of the league. Likewise Liverpool and all those others who want the league to finish. So do we need to silence their solutions too? Surely we too would be willing to take selfish risks if we stand to be the beneficiaries.

So who do we listen to? I'm sure Norwich fans 12 months ago would be of the exact same opinion Leeds fans are in right now... But does it make us right then or now?

Why do you think PPG is fair? Is it right to promote a team that hadn't yet earnt promotion while relegating 3 that didn't yet get relegated ?

PPG is manifestly unfair and will result in multiple clubs taking legal action (and probably succeeding in my view).

Playing out the season as normal once it is safe to resume is fair. provided both the premier league and the championship complete then nobody can have any complaints. To the extent that Leeds or Liverpool want to complete the season when it is safe to do so then I don't think many disagree.

If, however, we can't wait long enough to do that (i.e. the football authorities insist the season has to be completed by a date which is not feasible) and the season has to be curtailed then any solution that sees clubs relegated without the full season having been completed is unfair and arguably the same applies to any solution that sees clubs promoted. It may be in such a scenario that a suitable fudge can be negotiated which sees no relegation and some promotion which would be less unfair than PPG but its still not likely to be a solution that is fair to all involved. Null and void is at least fair in the sense that it does not produced a contrived/made up outcome and everyone is just restored to the position they were in at day 1 of the season. 

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

3 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

PPG is manifestly unfair and will result in multiple clubs taking legal action (and probably succeeding in my view).

Playing out the season as normal once it is safe to resume is fair. provided both the premier league and the championship complete then nobody can have any complaints. To the extent that Leeds or Liverpool want to complete the season when it is safe to do so then I don't think many disagree.

If, however, we can't wait long enough to do that (i.e. the football authorities insist the season has to be completed by a date which is not feasible) and the season has to be curtailed then any solution that sees clubs relegated without the full season having been completed is unfair and arguably the same applies to any solution that sees clubs promoted. It may be in such a scenario that a suitable fudge can be negotiated which sees no relegation and some promotion which would be less unfair than PPG but its still not likely to be a solution that is fair to all involved. Null and void is at least fair in the sense that it does not produced a contrived/made up outcome and everyone is just restored to the position they were in at day 1 of the season. 

Leeds fans are panicking. 

If you read what Parry has said/commented on it's always been with the view that their season will be complete. Never once has he said (I don't believe) that he is expecting any teams to be promoted based on PPG or any other kind of system.

All of his statements/comments have been about finishing the Championship season.

I suspect he's being quite clever in that and that would suggest that things aren't quite so cast iron if the season cannot be finished in the normal fashion, ie completing all the fixtures.

I've said it before, the final situation will be dictated by lawyers and negotiations not through completing games in both the EPL and Championship.

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

39 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

If the season is made nul and void is it still 4,041 days since we lost to the binners...

Indeed. And Leeds were in clutching distance and it's all been ripped away.

Every cloud....

[DraytonBoy 142]

Leeds fans are panicking because if they don't go up this season they're ****ed, the coaching staff and the better players will be gone and they'll be right back to where they were before Bielsa became coach.