Bleak

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

BBC now saying the protective gear we got from Turkey for the NHS is a pile of **** and is next to useless. Boris has other things mind at the moment and if he hasn't he should.

As for restarting it is for the club to decide; Delia to kick up a stink or Webber likewise, but either way it's not down to the fans or Pinkun opinion. NCFC either wants the money or it doesn't,  prepared to scrap it out in the courts, or turn up all nicey nicey Norwich City and accept a downright injustice. 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,782]

3 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

BBC now saying the protective gear we got from Turkey for the NHS is a pile of **** and is next to useless. Boris has other things mind at the moment and if he hasn't he should.

As for restarting it is for the club to decide; Delia to kick up a stink or Webber likewise, but either way it's not down to the fans or Pinkun opinion. NCFC either wants the money or it doesn't,  prepared to scrap it out in the courts, or turn up all nicey nicey Norwich City and accept a downright injustice. 

 

Agree

Playing at neutral grounds makes ALL the previous non neutral games null and void . It's simply a different competition. 

[sonyc 5,517]

3 hours ago, Van wink said:

Wasnt expecting to see R go up even before we started to relax lockdown, long long way to go

I am still a little perplexed about the government's 5 tests and whether we have met them to actual release the lockdown? 

That R stat surprised me greatly and that new scientist Ian Diamond (to the press briefing)  was very straightforward in his statements generally today.

I'm reading R could be close to 1 and hospitals as well as care homes are the main vectors. Lots of talk online too on a second wave and how, should it come, deaths could top a further 40,000 because it's already in the country and not being imported. Obviously, no-one knows. Yet Boris Johnson will be desperate that it doesn't because I feel quite honestly, it might effectively be the end of his premiership if there is one. Foreign press articles today are so scathing (easy to do from a long way away).

Caution must continue I think. I remain unconvinced we have a testing infrastructure ...a satisfactory one. But it's my sense of it only from what I read and hear from people working in the field. 

Re. Football... Purple has posted a long and detailed article about athletes and potential lung damage....I'm amazed that the EPL hasn't been advised by the government quite strongly about all of this.

It feels unwholesome to me that there is such a clamour for football ....feels so at odds with the public health messaging. It's is so incongruous in fact. It's like the EPL represents some kind of teenager or worse, like a child having a tantrum ("I want, I want"). And I'm wanting the government to act like a responsible parent.

Edited May 7, 2020 by sonyc

[Van wink 2,994]

It’s a novel virus and nobody knows the long term effects of infection. We do know multiple organs can be compromised, blood clots are common which could cause stroke heart attacks and DVT, there may well be more such as the lung tissue damage you mention. This cavalier approach to resuming sport is dangerous and completely irresponsible.

I agree about the testing infrastructure, also  track trace isn’t anywhere near ready and to be effective new levels of infection need to be way down on where they are atm. 
The messaging on this has been appalling today, it needed a strong line but now many people are left not knowing what the advice is. Shocking!

Edited May 7, 2020 by Van wink

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Raab caught on his heels when Beth Rigby used a bit of sarcasm about sunbathing. After he answered, she plunged in the dagger by saying that it made no sense to if he is to think of lifting the lockdown on Sunday night when he could have done it today and people could have taken advantage over the Bank Holiday.

[sgncfc 1,227]

New cases are not actually going down very quickly and the North West has still got real problems in hospitals; plus the virus hasn't yet peaked in care homes. I think there will be recognition on Sunday that more and more people are breaking the rules anyway and the plod can't enforce the "no picnics" or "no sitting on benches" anymore. I don't think it will be any more than that.

This concentration on the R rate is again a very confused policy; all of a sudden it's the only criteria. If you test more people using the strict criteria they are using (that you have to have symptoms no more than 3 days old) you are going to get a higher proportion of positives. We don't even yet know how the virus transmits, or how long it takes, or remotely how many people overall have been infected so calculating an accurate R rate is impossible, yet that sole measure is apparently now guiding our policy. This is just scientific guessing. If it wasn't so dangerous it would be funny.

The only appropriate measure is excess deaths and they are still much higher than they need to be to reduce any conditions - if indeed lockdown has proven to be a useful policy (debatable, but again, we don't know that yet).

It's gratifying to see some media asking our government questions  now, at last.

[Bill 1,788]

3 hours ago, Van wink said:

Having lost control of the epidemic in the care sector, footy should not be a priority for government.Our test capacity is low and getting lower figures would suggest, with a rising rate of infection, only Billy would be in favour of even thinking about starting football.

 

oh dear, poor handcrank ever the liar... day after day

as my thought posted on here regularly is that I am not bothered

however what I have done from the very beginning is highlight the stupidity of those who bleated out that the season could simply be voided - with no consequence, and therefore it would be

and pointing out the fallacy of deaths from the virus ending because they want it them end does not mean I want them to continue

 

but then it is hand crank so I should not expect him to stop lying just because I would like him to

[Bill 1,788]

2 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

BBC now saying the protective gear we got from Turkey for the NHS is a pile of **** and is next to useless. Boris has other things mind at the moment and if he hasn't he should.

As for restarting it is for the club to decide; Delia to kick up a stink or Webber likewise, but either way it's not down to the fans or Pinkun opinion. NCFC either wants the money or it doesn't,  prepared to scrap it out in the courts, or turn up all nicey nicey Norwich City and accept a downright injustice.

or accept the democratic right of 19 other shareholders to decide

if our club disagreed with that right then why has it not voiced it's opinion before ?

[sonyc 5,517]

I agree with the above sgncfc. I wanted to comment on your last point particularly. It will gradually become the case that figures start to speak for themselves (whether absolute numbers, per capita, excess deaths etc etc). Maybe it has already got to that point. The government will find no hiding place. Yet, I'm sure any government would struggle to hit all the right notes all of the time. And there is a lot to be learnt in real time. Not easy.

An inquiry the like of Chilcot (or Chilcot Plus Plus) will probably follow. And because (I believe) of this, ministers often mind their own backs. That isn't helping the quality of messaging or decision making. They cannot keep saying they are guided by the 'science' can they?

 

 

 

[Rock The Boat 1,331]

4 hours ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

Agree sonyc. There seem some aholes who , just because they are bored/entitled/arrogant/selfish think they can/should go about their business pretty much as they did 2 months ago. Unfortunately some people are in financial hardship, and some businesses will not survive this period, BUT the alternative is potential  death. But doesn't mean that people cannot wait another couple of weeks or so, for a fookin Costa or a KFC.

The lockdown is still on. Who the **** do people think they are in going about these movements now, and yet a fortnight ago, when we were still on lockdown, they didn't? Everyone's an expert all of a sudden. Ffs, the rules are there, and people are that bloody thick,  that they pass the buck of responsibility to others, and cannot think for themselves

I assume that you are retired, on a pension and without a family to support. Most people are not in such a privileged position. 

[Rock The Boat 1,331]

1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

New cases are not actually going down very quickly and the North West has still got real problems in hospitals; plus the virus hasn't yet peaked in care homes. I think there will be recognition on Sunday that more and more people are breaking the rules anyway and the plod can't enforce the "no picnics" or "no sitting on benches" anymore. I don't think it will be any more than that.

This concentration on the R rate is again a very confused policy; all of a sudden it's the only criteria. If you test more people using the strict criteria they are using (that you have to have symptoms no more than 3 days old) you are going to get a higher proportion of positives. We don't even yet know how the virus transmits, or how long it takes, or remotely how many people overall have been infected so calculating an accurate R rate is impossible, yet that sole measure is apparently now guiding our policy. This is just scientific guessing. If it wasn't so dangerous it would be funny.

The only appropriate measure is excess deaths and they are still much higher than they need to be to reduce any conditions - if indeed lockdown has proven to be a useful policy (debatable, but again, we don't know that yet).

It's gratifying to see some media asking our government questions  now, at last.

Why are you confused about the R rate policy? I remember a couple of weeks back when Angela Merkel was on the TV discussing the Importance of the R rate everybody was saying oh how professional and scientific she was and why couldn't we be like that. Now when we do it, it suddenly becomes too hard to understand and its all scientific guessing. 

I wonder whether frau Merkel is subjected to questions about sunbathing or whether the German journalists are a little more grown up.

[Surfer 1,547]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

I wonder whether frau Merkel is subjected to questions about sunbathing or whether the German journalists are a little more grown up.

Quite probably. 

The message today was the R factor outside hospitals and nursing homes was about 0.5, which is at minimum good / heading in the right direction; while in hospitals and nursing homes it was more like 1. That shouldn't come as a surprise... it also suggests we can immediately start to release the general population from total lockdown and retain specific focus on hospitals and nursing homes. 

[Bill 1,788]

1 hour ago, Surfer said:

Quite probably. 

The message today was the R factor outside hospitals and nursing homes was about 0.5, which is at minimum good / heading in the right direction; while in hospitals and nursing homes it was more like 1. That shouldn't come as a surprise... it also suggests we can immediately start to release the general population from total lockdown and retain specific focus on hospitals and nursing homes. 

the bottom ;line is that it seems as with the plague and the 1981 flu some will die - and some won't

the Derbyshire village that locked itself down during the plague saw only a quarter of it's population die - millions of the armed forces in close contact with those infected on 1981 did not die and in most cases did not contract it either

so it is not about tea leave gazing astral predictions or similar it is about accepting there will be a risk while balancing that against economic (and social) need - not callous or indifferent to those whose risk is far greater due to current health conditions, but at some time we have to face up to this

people will die, they die of flu in huge numbers

but without a provable vaccine we have little else choice - the lockdown has merely been about ensuring numbers of infected have been kept to manageable levels - and as that pressure eases then so will the need to expose more so as to process folk ie

• infected
• infected/ill
• infected dead

and no algebra, soothsaying or tea leaf gazing will alter that brutal fact

[City fan 78]

The premiership is just there to serve the supposed big clubs. I've never enjoyed watching city in the premiership and current events just reinforce that. 

[Yellow and Green 334]

If the PL does restart, it will be interesting to see what happens if a top manager gets COVID 19 - or a top player due to the Premier League's actions. Especially considering that there have been a lot of concerns raised by players, club doctors and unions etc. It seems they are determined to finish the season - going against the advice of experts.

 

More to the point, what will happen if that player/manager passes it on to a loved one and the worst happens? Will the PL be liable?

[Crabbycanary3 994]

5 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

I assume that you are retired, on a pension and without a family to support. Most people are not in such a privileged position. 

None of the above RTB. I have my own business, I have employees, I have a family. My business will suffer financially because of this, but people are still dying on a large scale. We are not talking isolated and manageable situations. I appreciate that some people are in a financial mess, and I make reference to that, but supporting your family with a Costa or KFC isn't my definition of 'support' especially when the alternative is as catastrophic as it can get. There are Govt measures to support businesses and (self) employed people (not every single person, again I appreciate, but the majority). I have a friend's Dad , who if he survives Covid (which he has got), will be one of those 'miracle' stories. I have a Sister In Law who works on the front line, in the Norfolk & Norwich hospital. People need to respect the situation. Suddenly the numbers who are not doing that is shooting up.

In terms of lockdown, what is the difference between this week and a fortnight ago? Nothing, except people's personal opinions/entitlement/obstinance/selfishness/frustrations. People's mental health is very important, but if their, or people they come into contact with, physical health deteriorates to the point of death, then.....? It's not scaremongering with the numbers as they currently are. You can't bully this virus.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Crabbycanary3

[DraytonBoy 150]

42 minutes ago, Yellow and Green said:

If the PL does restart, it will be interesting to see what happens if a top manager gets COVID 19 - or a top player due to the Premier League's actions. Especially considering that there have been a lot of concerns raised by players, club doctors and unions etc. It seems they are determined to finish the season - going against the advice of experts.

 

More to the point, what will happen if that player/manager passes it on to a loved one and the worst happens? Will the PL be liable?

If football starts next month or next year the risk is still there until everyone has been given a vaccine, should any employer be liable when people go back to work?

[Crabbycanary3 994]

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-05-01/second-virus-wave-may-be-more-severe-than-first-whitty-warns/?fbclid=IwAR3LytCEaWdSWlbYlWaMbDChNW0K1cWzHG0k7PXBFXvn7V7r9oPnoypXE2I

He's someone whose opinion I'd rather listen to, than anyone in the Costa queue.

[Van wink 2,994]

9 hours ago, Bill said:

oh dear, poor handcrank ever the liar... day after day

as my thought posted on here regularly is that I am not bothered

however what I have done from the very beginning is highlight the stupidity of those who bleated out that the season could simply be voided - with no consequence, and therefore it would be

and pointing out the fallacy of deaths from the virus ending because they want it them end does not mean I want them to continue

 

but then it is hand crank so I should not expect him to stop lying just because I would like him to

Nobody has said there would be no consequences from ending the season, but most have said it would be sick to be playing football at this time, you however don’t think it would look sick, as you stated previously. You can’t rewrite history, your unpleasant views are splattered all over this message board!

Edited May 8, 2020 by Van wink

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

Nobody has said there would be no consequences from ending the season, but most have said it would be sick to be playing football at this time, you however don’t think it would look sick, as you stated previously. You can’t rewrite history, your unpleasant views are splattered all over this message board!

There is not one way to end this season that has so far been proposed, from voiding to playing all the fixtures behind closed doors, and every suggestion in between, that will not have either financial or medical or legal consequences or some combination of  the three, or even all three.

[Aggy 755]

9 hours ago, sgncfc said:

New cases are not actually going down very quickly and the North West has still got real problems in hospitals;

Has it? What‘a the evidence for that?

[Van wink 2,994]

8 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

There is not one way to end this season that has so far been proposed, from voiding to playing all the fixtures behind closed doors, and every suggestion in between, that will not have either financial or medical or legal consequences or some combination of  the three, or even all three.

Indeed, this alleged “no consequence” argument is yet another figment of Bills colourful imagination, to be kind to him, whereas the reality of course is he is constructing yet another straw man argument. Sad.

[Pugin 601]

10 hours ago, sgncfc said:

 

This concentration on the R rate is again a very confused policy; all of a sudden it's the only criteria. If you test more people using the strict criteria they are using (that you have to have symptoms no more than 3 days old) you are going to get a higher proportion of positives. We don't even yet know how the virus transmits, or how long it takes, or remotely how many people overall have been infected so calculating an accurate R rate is impossible, yet that sole measure is apparently now guiding our policy. This is just scientific guessing. If it wasn't so dangerous it would be funny.

The only appropriate measure is excess deaths and they are still much higher than they need to be to reduce any conditions - if indeed lockdown has proven to be a useful policy (debatable, but again, we don't know that yet).

It's gratifying to see some media asking our government questions  now, at last.

Very well put, sgncfc. 'The science' is just an illusory empty cliche which has lost its credibility. In time, we will have the answers, but decisions have to be made almost daily. 

And therein lies the problem for Johnson and his team. Who to look after? The proletariat, who are extremely vulnerable and could die in swathes if controls are relaxed. Or the financial institutions, who are the Conservatives' natural allies and backers and who need the economy to start ticking over again or else they will lose multiple £billions. If the financiers keel over, the proletariat will feel the sharpest pain.

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Raab yesterday just made a statement that the R rate was between 0.5 and 0.9. Quite a big gap and when confronted he mumbled on about not knowing exactly. At times, it is very difficult for a thicko like myself to grasp exactly. I would rather they spent more time answering questions than telling us how brilliant they are to have devised 5 points.

[sgncfc 1,227]

3 hours ago, Aggy said:

Has it? What‘a the evidence for that?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/03/north-west-overtakes-london-for-number-of-covid-19-hospital-cases-coronavirus

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749]

So Brighton and West Ham (currently out of the bottom 3) can force a vote to relegate the current bottom 3 , thus saving themselves?

As far as I've seen we havent made our stance publically known other than Farke stating that he hopes we are given the chance to finish the season.

All of this against a backdrop of the Championship not declaring whether they intend to complete their season but their top teams expecting to be handed a promotion in a league thats only 75% complete.

If we're railroaded out of the league in this fashion , whats the appetite to try to be promoted back into it?

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

15 hours ago, sonyc said:

Re. Football... Purple has posted a long and detailed article about athletes and potential lung damage....I'm amazed that the EPL hasn't been advised by the government quite strongly about all of this.

 

It's on the Germany Returning thread. And I would hope the Players' Union would be aware of it.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749]

Approvals now being made for 5 subs per game.....anyone now in a position to take points off one of the bigger clubs with stronger squads with 20 mins to go now know that they'll be overpowered by the strength of their bench.

...imagine looking ovet at Man Citys bench and seeing them bringing 5 on to swing it their way ...i.e Jesus,Mahrez,Sane,Silva,Bernado

....it stinks

[Pugin 601]

13 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Approvals now being made for 5 subs per game.....anyone now in a position to take points off one of the bigger clubs with stronger squads with 20 mins to go now know that they'll be overpowered by the strength of their bench.

...imagine looking ovet at Man Citys bench and seeing them bringing 5 on to swing it their way ...i.e Jesus,Mahrez,Sane,Silva,Bernado

....it stinks

It does stink, but my God I would like to see our side full of strong characters and fearless youngsters having a crack at some of the aristocrats in a battle to prevent relegation. All is not lost, not by a long chalk.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749]

.....oh ..and now VAR can now apparantly be scrapped mid way though this season too

Not sure whether to laugh or cry