13 for 6 against 1 dissenter

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,780]

18 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Absolutely. I can see West Ham putting up a BS legal argument though that PPG gives the Championship teams the "right" to two auto promotion places and four playoff positions. But as the playoffs can't happen, then only two teams should be relegated from the EPL.

It isn't beyond the realms of possibility, but my instinct says that West Ham would have more chance of success if they team up with Norwich and Bournemouth to scrap relegation entirely rather than go alone and try to push for a 'two-up, two-down' scenario.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[Capt. Pants 4,198]

If Villa, Bournemouth and West Ham all present separate legal actions based on how PPG is calculated using a methodology that suits each of them then it will get very messy indeed. Our case can only be that as the season has not finished there is no fair way of determining PPG for all clubs, as any calculation will see us relegated.

I'm not overly confident to be honest.

[Ian 1,129]

2 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

If Villa, Bournemouth and West Ham all present separate legal actions based on how PPG is calculated using a methodology that suits each of them then it will get very messy indeed. Our case can only be that as the season has not finished there is no fair way of determining PPG for all clubs, as any calculation will see us relegated.

I'm not overly confident to be honest.

I wonder if there is grounds for teams to refuse to pay their part of the reported rebate due to broadcasters in these circumstances?

[sgncfc 1,221]

7 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

This is what I was alluding to the other day. I'm no corporate lawyer but not hard to envisage a plausible case being put together to argue that any decision by the members of the premier league (including the FA) that arbitrarily relegates 3 of its members on the basis of an unfinished season and a PPG formula which is nowhere in the rules (thus effectively stripping them of their shares) is an act that could be considered unfairly prejudicial to those shareholders, especially if they are replaced by new shareholders who have also been promoted on PPG.

Whether the case would succeed or not I have no idea. The relegated shareholders would clearly suffer prejudice, the question would be whether its "unfair prejudice."

I don't think other shareholders holding a vote for something which you, as another shareholder, don't agree with constitutes prejudice - that's just the way companies are run.

[JF 694]

Anyone still think PL clubs won’t take legal action if relegated on ppg? 
 

 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

14 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

If Villa, Bournemouth and West Ham all present separate legal actions based on how PPG is calculated using a methodology that suits each of them then it will get very messy indeed. Our case can only be that as the season has not finished there is no fair way of determining PPG for all clubs, as any calculation will see us relegated.

I'm not overly confident to be honest.

I think our case would be that any decision to curtail the season and determine relegation by PPG is unfairly prejudicial. It doesn't matter to us which form of PPG is used as we go down under any of them. It has to be the principle of using PPG to determine relegation on the basis of an incomplete season when that is not in the rules of the competition. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

28 minutes ago, JF said:

Anyone still think PL clubs won’t take legal action if relegated on ppg? 
 

 

It would be interesting to understand if the structure of Ligue 1 is the same as the premier league (i.e. is it a corporate structure). The law that applies won;t be quite the same but there may be some instructive European law principles that comes out of any action amiens take. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

10 hours ago, sgncfc said:

I don't think other shareholders holding a vote for something which you, as another shareholder, don't agree with constitutes prejudice - that's just the way companies are run.

Is getting relegated without having the opportunity to finish your games and losing your share in the premier league not prejudice?. We will have been harmed by the decision. The bigger unknown in my view is whether a court would regard it as unfair in the circumstances. 

[ricardo 7,347]

So Webber won't  accept relegation if Championship not played to finish.

 

[JF 694]

15 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

It would be interesting to understand if the structure of Ligue 1 is the same as the premier league (i.e. is it a corporate structure). The law that applies won;t be quite the same but there may be some instructive European law principles that comes out of any action amiens take. 

Leagues 1 and 2 in France are ran by the same authority and I don’t know if it’s true but I’ve read that ppg in such circumstances is within the rules there 

[JF 694]

Just now, ricardo said:

So Webber won't  accept relegation if Championship not played to finish.

 

And rightly so as many of us have been saying on here for weeks 

[sonyc 5,492]

He has outlined our football position and I assume our legal position

[sgncfc 1,221]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Is getting relegated without having the opportunity to finish your games and losing your share in the premier league not prejudice?. We will have been harmed by the decision. The bigger unknown in my view is whether a court would regard it as unfair in the circumstances. 

Webber's view is unsurprising but actually changes nothing. I am still of the opinion that if 14 of the 20 vote for something it is legally binding on the 20. No comeback. I don't think any legal action would get past the first court.

That's why all the lobbying is happening. If there are not 14 who can agree on anything and the FA or EPL make a decision - that's when legal action could be considered.

But what makes anyone think that we would win? Legal action is always risky and expensive, and the obvious defence is that we are in an unprecedented situation where a decision of some kind had to be made.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

22 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

Webber's view is unsurprising but actually changes nothing. I am still of the opinion that if 14 of the 20 vote for something it is legally binding on the 20. No comeback. I don't think any legal action would get past the first court.

That's why all the lobbying is happening. If there are not 14 who can agree on anything and the FA or EPL make a decision - that's when legal action could be considered.

But what makes anyone think that we would win? Legal action is always risky and expensive, and the obvious defence is that we are in an unprecedented situation where a decision of some kind had to be made.

I don't necessarily think we would win but I think there is a credible argument there and if they try to relegate us on PPG then we should exhaust all avenues to avoid it, including legal action if necessary. Relegation at this particular time would be pretty catastrophic. If we've brought it on ourselves after 38 games then so be it. 

[ricardo 7,347]

Any kind of contrived finish will be inherently unfair. If playing out is impossible then the season can only be nul and void.

 

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

37 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I don't necessarily think we would win but I think there is a credible argument there and if they try to relegate us on PPG then we should exhaust all avenues to avoid it, including legal action if necessary. Relegation at this particular time would be pretty catastrophic. If we've brought it on ourselves after 38 games then so be it. 

I suspect there is more than a subtle hint in what he said.

Looking back on previous statements others have been careful to say about completing seasons, Rick Parry certainly did in his speech about the season.

I suspect that there is a real chance chance that the loophole to all of this is that a complete season in both leagues needs to happen.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,780]

For those wishing for null and void, the Premier League, the FA and all involved have been very clear and totally adamant in their stance that null and void is not an option under any circumstances.

The nearest thing to null and void that we can hope for is PPG with no relegation or promotion.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

For those wishing for null and void, the Premier League, the FA and all involved have been very clear and totally adamant in their stance that null and void is not an option under any circumstances.

The nearest thing to null and void that we can hope for is PPG with no relegation or promotion.

Don't disagree but there is definitely a difference between a complete and incomplete season.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,780]

1 minute ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Don't disagree but there is definitely a difference between a complete and incomplete season.

Of course. Both null and void and PPG would be incomplete seasons.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Of course. Both null and void and PPG would be incomplete seasons.

And that's clearly the stance that we are taking as a club and I suspect others who would/could lose out; and I don't just mean those in relegation threat.

[sonyc 5,492]

The bottom 6 for sure will be supporting what Webber has said. And he was at pains to say it wasn't just the bottom 6 who were hanging out together. If there is at least one more club which believes the same then any vote in the matter will fail.

[ricardo 7,347]

29 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Of course. Both null and void and PPG would be incomplete seasons.

And thus issues of promotion and relegation cannot justly be based upon them.

Edited May 13, 2020 by ricardo

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,780]

Just now, ricardo said:

And thus issues of promotion and relegation cannot justly be placed upon them.

Many stakeholders will try to push for it, I fear. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

13 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Many stakeholders will try to push for it, I fear. 

Would they though? I get that out of self interest some might but would there be one single PPG formula solution that would get 14 points?

And if there was would 14 clubs vote to relegate 3 clubs on PPG knowing that it may lead to a potential law suit against the premier league or would you get 14 prepared to vote for an expanded premier league for a season knowing it reduces that likelihood.

I have no idea what the answer is to the above but there are all sorts of possible permutations. What I don't understand is why the FA have deemed fit to try and force the clubs down the PPG route and thus almost make an impasse inevitable.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,780]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Would they though? I get that out of self interest some might but would there be one single PPG formula solution that would get 14 points?

And if there was would 14 clubs vote to relegate 3 clubs on PPG knowing that it may lead to a potential law suit against the premier league or would you get 14 prepared to vote for an expanded premier league for a season knowing it reduces that likelihood.

I have no idea what the answer is to the above but there are all sorts of possible permutations. What I don't understand is why the FA have deemed fit to try and force the clubs down the PPG route and thus almost make an impasse inevitable.

You make very good points, but it seems some are already pushing for it, including the FA and obviously the EFL. Even the Premier League seem to be in favour, but their view could change if they realise that the most hassle-free solution is to scrap relegation.

[sonyc 5,492]

2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Would they though? I get that out of self interest some might but would there be one single PPG formula solution that would get 14 points?

And if there was would 14 clubs vote to relegate 3 clubs on PPG knowing that it may lead to a potential law suit against the premier league or would you get 14 prepared to vote for an expanded premier league for a season knowing it reduces that likelihood.

I have no idea what the answer is to the above but there are all sorts of possible permutations. What I don't understand is why the FA have deemed fit to try and force the clubs down the PPG route and thus almost make an impasse inevitable.

On your last point Jim I believe that the FA have been bombarded for a long while and pressured by the bigger clubs in the Championship to accept PPG. Hence their blunt and myopic stance. They haven't considered other options.

The good thing about this is that it's often not great to be in first with a plan. Another plan later in the day often will find traction*

 

*Negotiation Rule #14 in  "Negotiation - Good Practice for Negotiators Manual 😉

Edited May 13, 2020 by sonyc

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

53 minutes ago, sonyc said:

On your last point Jim I believe that the FA have been bombarded for a long while and pressured by the bigger clubs in the Championship to accept PPG. Hence their blunt and myopic stance. They haven't considered other options.

The good thing about this is that it's often not great to be in first with a plan. Another plan later in the day often will find traction*

 

*Negotiation Rule #14 in  "Negotiation - Good Practice for Negotiators Manual 😉

I follow a few journos on twitter and the tone of what the FA say with regards to relegation has changed somewhat.

During the last week or so it's been comments like the FA have told the PL that is has to happen and they will force the issue etc etc, now its been toned down to comments like the FA want relegation.

Interesting.....