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pete

13 for 6 against 1 dissenter

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29 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The path of least resistance does not involve PPG or at least not in respect of the relegation battle anyway. The FA's little interjection yesterday was not helpful or appropriate in my view. 

Sorry, my comment about the path is on the basis that they keep saying that there will be relegation.

Their problem now is how can they do that and get the least amount of kick back.

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Talking of 'paths'.....it is a great pity that so far we have not seen any proposal to allow promotion in all leagues and remove  relegation  for 1 or 2 of the following seasons to permit re-adjustment. I think this would be the least litigious and the vast majority of teams would support. The future broadcasting payments would need some kind of equalisation factored in.

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2 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Talking of 'paths'.....it is a great pity that so far we have not seen any proposal to allow promotion in all leagues and remove  relegation  for 1 or 2 of the following seasons to permit re-adjustment. I think this would be the least litigious and the vast majority of teams would support. The future broadcasting payments would need some kind of equalisation factored in.

I don't think anyone involved really actually has a clue as to what is going on.

They're demanding relegation to keep integrity but want neutral venues, shorter matches, 5 subs etc sl that argument is lost.

They want to find a system to calculate some kind of points system to justify relegation and places

They're happy for other leagues to not complete and award promotion again on a points system

They can't work out how much the financial impact is going to be, 1 week it £1bn, then its X millions, then its we need to finish the season to get the money, now its £300 odd million.

This is is far from over in any aspect and it's far from straightforward or cut & dried by any means.

It's all about positioning at the moment.

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4 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

I don't think anyone involved really actually has a clue as to what is going on.

They're demanding relegation to keep integrity but want neutral venues, shorter matches, 5 subs etc sl that argument is lost.

They want to find a system to calculate some kind of points system to justify relegation and places

They're happy for other leagues to not complete and award promotion again on a points system

They can't work out how much the financial impact is going to be, 1 week it £1bn, then its X millions, then its we need to finish the season to get the money, now its £300 odd million.

This is is far from over in any aspect and it's far from straightforward or cut & dried by any means.

It's all about positioning at the moment.

yes lots of positioning....I guess they could just pop over to the Great Pinkun Forum and check out more options to consider 🙂

...even look at strategies for tackling the virus whilst they're at it

Seriously, I've not been impressed so far with what I've heard from the footballing authorities (barring Gary Neville)

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4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

yes lots of positioning....I guess they could just pop over to the Great Pinkun Forum and check out more options to consider 🙂

...even look at strategies for tackling the virus whilst they're at it

Seriously, I've not been impressed so far with what I've heard from the footballing authorities (barring Gary Neville)

I follow a few on twitter, some of the journos should change careers that's for certain.

The reality is that there wouldn't have been any kind of clause in the contracts other than force majeure and even within that clause there are examples as a guide, no one could have predicted any kind of event like this that has such an effect so to a certain degree that's why the positioning will be taking place.

Listening/reading some of the stuff coming from EPL and EFL I'm not confident that any of them will resolve this effectively as let's not forget they are separate businesses. Other countries such as France etc is still one business just different leagues so they're in control of the whole process so therefore easier to make a decision.

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28 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Talking of 'paths'.....it is a great pity that so far we have not seen any proposal to allow promotion in all leagues and remove  relegation  for 1 or 2 of the following seasons to permit re-adjustment. I think this would be the least litigious and the vast majority of teams would support. The future broadcasting payments would need some kind of equalisation factored in.

I agree with this and find it hard to understand why the FA appears to be the one precluding this at the moment. 

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55 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

If I'm not mistaken, Bournemouth go down in both circumstances. The difference is Aston Villa (standard PPG) or West Ham (home/away PPG).

No Villa go down in both cases. West Ham replace Bournemouth if they use weighted PPG. Spurs also get a European spot at Arsenals expense if they use weighted rather than simple PPG.

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1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

I agree with this and find it hard to understand why the FA appears to be the one precluding this at the moment. 

They have to try and demonstrate that they are in control as all football is governed by the FA.

The reality is that they are about as relevant to football as Leeds are (🎣)

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1 minute ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

They have to try and demonstrate that they are in control as all football is governed by the FA.

The reality is that they are about as relevant to football as Leeds are (🎣)

Well they are in control in the sense they have to approved whatever gets agreed/resolved between the premier league clubs but surely they should be pushing for a negotiated solution that keeps as many clubs as possible happy/avoids harm to as many clubs as possible in the event the seasons cannot be completed.

Both the premier league and the EFL (in Rick Parry) have a rep on the FA Board so i'm not quite sure how that works in terms of any conflicts/disputes there might end up being over this. 

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5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Well they are in control in the sense they have to approved whatever gets agreed/resolved between the premier league clubs but surely they should be pushing for a negotiated solution that keeps as many clubs as possible happy/avoids harm to as many clubs as possible in the event the seasons cannot be completed.

Both the premier league and the EFL (in Rick Parry) have a rep on the FA Board so i'm not quite sure how that works in terms of any conflicts/disputes there might end up being over this. 

Having just googled it is seems that the only power that the FA has over the PL is based on the rules in which the game is played plus the power to stop the PL playing games that clash with internationals.

They do have the power to veto appointments within the PL but no mention about what the PL has to do. The suggestion is that the PL actually has more ability to dictate to the FA and not the other way. Interesting.

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13 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

No Villa go down in both cases. West Ham replace Bournemouth if they use weighted PPG. Spurs also get a European spot at Arsenals expense if they use weighted rather than simple PPG.

I've just googled it, and I've seen an article that backs you up. But I definitely saw one yesterday that said Villa's home form, combined with the fact they have six home games and four away left, was enough to see them leapfrog both Bournemouth and West Ham.

I have neither the time nor the patience to calculate it myself right now 🤷🏻‍♂️

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

This is what I was alluding to the other day. I'm no corporate lawyer but not hard to envisage a plausible case being put together to argue that any decision by the members of the premier league (including the FA) that arbitrarily relegates 3 of its members on the basis of an unfinished season and a PPG formula which is nowhere in the rules (thus effectively stripping them of their shares) is an act that could be considered unfairly prejudicial to those shareholders, especially if they are replaced by new shareholders who have also been promoted on PPG.

Whether the case would succeed or not I have no idea. The relegated shareholders would clearly suffer prejudice, the question would be whether its "unfair prejudice."

Well put. Got to be worth a punt, especially as the cost would be divided by the 3 interested clubs. No doubt we would get slaughtered in the media but I really don't care about that. 

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12 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Thank goodness these points are finally being made.

If anyone has any sense then in the event of curtailment they will broker the obvious "path of least resistance" deal. 

Although i'm not quite sure they've got that headline summary right because deciding both by PPG (i.e. the same mechanism) is even more unfair!

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13 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Thank goodness these points are finally being made.

If anyone has any sense then in the event of curtailment they will broker the obvious "path of least resistance" deal. 

That might upset Cyan.

It's right though, you either finish a season and therefore earn your place either up or down or you don't.

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14 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Having just googled it is seems that the only power that the FA has over the PL is based on the rules in which the game is played plus the power to stop the PL playing games that clash with internationals.

They do have the power to veto appointments within the PL but no mention about what the PL has to do. The suggestion is that the PL actually has more ability to dictate to the FA and not the other way. Interesting.

The FA holds a special share in the premier league. The rules say that as the special shareholder they have to approve any changes to the rules in so far as they relate to promotion and relegation, number of teams and various other things. 

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1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

The FA holds a special share in the premier league. The rules say that as the special shareholder they have to approve any changes to the rules in so far as they relate to promotion and relegation, number of teams and various other things. 

That would apply to seasons completed normally though right? I'm not sure how relevant that is here. It may have been if our rules were laid out as the French leagues are.

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2 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

That might upset Cyan.

It's right though, you either finish a season and therefore earn your place either up or down or you don't.

Yes but its not quite right to say that its fair if both leagues are decided by the same method. Both being decided by PPG is not fair. Really the situation is that the EFL should only be allowed to use PPG if the premier league is curtailed and relegation is taken off the table. 

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1 minute ago, Throwaway said:

That would apply to seasons completed normally though right? I'm not sure how relevant that is here. It may have been if our rules were laid out as the French leagues are.

No because if the season is curtailed the premier league will need to amend their rules (whatever solution is arrived at). if, for example, they decided that they were going to end the season, have no relegation and expand the number of teams in the top division to 22 then the FA needs to approve that resolution. 

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1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

No because if the season is curtailed the premier league will need to amend their rules (whatever solution is arrived at). if, for example, they decided that they were going to end the season, have no relegation and expand the number of teams in the top division to 22 then the FA needs to approve that resolution. 

But surely the PL still has the greater say (as you say it's their rules)

So if the FA were to say "You must relegate, we wont allow this to change"

what happens when the league turns around and says "yes but we must also finish all our games first, using PPG isn't an avenue for us unless relegation is first removed" 

likewise how does the FA justify "all our teams didn't play each other twice, but we used PPG and heres Leeds, WBA and Fulham for you, give us your 3"

What then? What would happen if there was a deadlock and the premier league simply doesn't relegate?

This is changing at a pace faster than I have any chance of keeping up with. Just within the last half hour i've heard that players might refuse to train next week anyway, then that talks with the government about clubs using their own ground are moving in the right direction, only to then here Sadiq Khan doesn't want games in London next month! 

 

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22 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The FA holds a special share in the premier league. The rules say that as the special shareholder they have to approve any changes to the rules in so far as they relate to promotion and relegation, number of teams and various other things. 

I've just read it and it's not completely clear as it says that as a shareholder they get a vote and get to ensure that the league is played based on the FA football rules.

They can veto appointments of position but reads to me like they get a vote, therefore there are 21 votes not 20 but nothing in the rules which say they have the control.

I suspect the argument will be that a short incomplete season is that, its not an rule change.

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11 minutes ago, Throwaway said:

government about clubs using their own ground are moving in the right direction, only to then here Sadiq Khan doesn't want games in London next month! 

 

Yes I agree its a right old mess. But the simple fact is that whatever solution the premier league come up with will have to be approved by the FA. That said, if the premier league comes up with a solution that has been agreed by its members then it would be a big and potentially destructive step for the FA to veto it. In practice therefore some of the current soundbites may not reflect what they actually do when put on the spot.

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1 minute ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

I've just read it and it's not completely clear as it says that as a shareholder they get a vote and get to ensure that the league is played based on the FA football rules.

They can veto appointments of position but reads to me like they get a vote, therefore there are 21 votes not 20 but nothing in the rules which say they have the control.

I suspect the argument will be that a short incomplete season is that, its not an rule change.

The Football Association

The Football Association (The FA) is the national governing body for football in England and is responsible for sanctioning competition Rule Books, including the Premier League’s, and regulating on-field matters. 

It also organises The FA Cup competition, in which our 20 Member Clubs compete.

The FA is also a special shareholder of the Premier League. It has the ability to exercise a vote on certain specific issues, but has no role in the day-to-day running of the Premier League.

Each year, the Premier League submits its rules to The FA for approval and sanction. 

For the Premier League, The FA ensures that throughout the season the Laws of the Game are applied on the field and that the rules and regulations concerned with running football in England are observed by officials, club and players off the pitch as well as on it. 

The FA also deals with all matters of on and off-field discipline.

 

Not crystal clear but this is from the PL site.

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So the fa get a veto, but as has been pointed out, they don't get to say what happens, only to say what doesn't happen. The politicians way around this is say this is our proposal, if it isn't accepted we can't finish our league until sometime next year so we can't start the next one and you (and by extension the rest of the club's in the EFL) will get no more money from the PL gravy train. A veto is only any good if the status quo is acceptable...

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1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I've just googled it, and I've seen an article that backs you up. But I definitely saw one yesterday that said Villa's home form, combined with the fact they have six home games and four away left, was enough to see them leapfrog both Bournemouth and West Ham.

I have neither the time nor the patience to calculate it myself right now 🤷🏻‍♂️

PPG calculation below -

West Ham PPG.jpg

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There is very little chance of the Championship finishing so if the Telegraph report is correct then there is no point in Project Restart as the games will be meaningless.

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6 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Fair enough. Hopefully they go with this, because the Premier League would be more likely to buckle and scrap relegation if West Ham went down instead of Bournemouth.

Absolutely. I can see West Ham putting up a BS legal argument though that PPG gives the Championship teams the "right" to two auto promotion places and four playoff positions. But as the playoffs can't happen, then only two teams should be relegated from the EPL.

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