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pete

13 for 6 against 1 dissenter

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8 minutes ago, sonyc said:

The big 6 must be worried it’s on a knife edge if they are trying to exert this much pressure through briefing journalists. If it’s a 14-6 split they have nothing to worry about because that’s enough to vote it through. 

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The irony of the other clubs complaining about “briefing” by the bottom 6. All these journalists are very obviously being briefed by those in favour of re-starting.

The government won’t block it so I don’t know why they are making out that there is some sort of suspense over whether the government will allow it.

this will happen unless players pick up the virus in numbers once they return to training. 

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Just now, KiwiScot said:

Where's the FA cup fitting into this?

Final on 8th august, matches to be played after end of season I think 

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All sport in Belgium suspended until the 31st July. This is a massive call for the government now, we’re the worst hit country in Europe and if they give the go ahead and something terrible happens then all involved in pushing this through will have blood on their hands 

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54 minutes ago, sonyc said:

This is going to get messy. Seems that if this season can’t go ahead the 14 will now try and push through relegation on points per game as a way of forcing their hand. That will end up with legal battles that will stop any future season from starting

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1 minute ago, JF said:

This is going to get messy. Seems that if this season can’t go ahead the 14 will now try and push through relegation on points per game as a way of forcing their hand. That will end up with legal battles that will stop any future season from starting

I don’t think they will. Several of those 14 won’t want PPG as it will harm them and legally it will be problematic. I think they are using the threat to try and get some of the bottom clubs to agree to Project Restart. 

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Just now, Jim Smith said:

I don’t think they will. Several of those 14 won’t want PPG as it will harm them and legally it will be problematic. I think they are using the threat to try and get some of the bottom clubs to agree to Project Restart. 

Several journalists are saying that the clubs at the bottom will be told Monday that if they don’t give to go ahead to this restart they will be relegated on points per game with a majority vote. There is no way that happens without it going to the courts. Maybe they are bluffing but time will tell. I can see no way that the government can give the go ahead on purely safety measures, Belgium have banned all sport now until July 31st and we are now the worst hit country in Europe. We will see

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16 minutes ago, JF said:

Several journalists are saying that the clubs at the bottom will be told Monday that if they don’t give to go ahead to this restart they will be relegated on points per game with a majority vote. There is no way that happens without it going to the courts. Maybe they are bluffing but time will tell. I can see no way that the government can give the go ahead on purely safety measures, Belgium have banned all sport now until July 31st and we are now the worst hit country in Europe. We will see

I believe this is the tactic to try and get a couple of the bottom 6 to break ranks on Monday. But the fact they are reporting to this suggests its not just the "bottom 6" that the top clubs are worried about because if it was just 6 then they wouldn't need to resort to these sort of strong arm tactics as they already have the 14 votes. They must be worried that there is potential for them to lose the vote (i.e. that there are a couple of other unknowns/waverers).

Its not my area of expertise but I've been looking at the Companies Act and I think that if the premier league votes to relegate three teams (i.e. essentially compel three shareholders to hand their shares over to other clubs) on the basis of PPG or current placings (i.e. an incomplete season) then there is at the very least an argument that that is an act which is unfairly prejudicial to three of its shareholders (i.e. the three who get relegated) given that it was/is legitimate for clubs to expect the season to be played out over 38 games with 19 home and 19 away. Mind you, if we've voted against the re-start then maybe that won't help in such a claim so maybe that's why the focus is on the neutral grounds and safety issues! All gets very messy as you say. sure there will be other legal arguments in the mix as well.

I think the government will give the go ahead. they seem desperate to get the premier league back on (I think they see it as a good news story) and will be liaising with the premier league behind the scenes. The Bundesliga has got the go ahead and we won't want to be seen to be incapable of doing what Germany have done.

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And yet still the EFL are allowed to pop up in public demanding promotion for its clubs regardless of whether they actually finish their own season. They need to be put under some pressure on that point. 

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I cannot see Manure accepting PPG. If the season ends or PPG, they will still be fifth. And Wolves and Sheffield are not that far behind either so there may be a few more objections.

And anyway, what do they expect? The bottom six have as much right as the other 14.

And surely clubs will have the right to say, the restart must be played with the same squads that they finished with in March.

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5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

And yet still the EFL are allowed to pop up in public demanding promotion for its clubs regardless of whether they actually finish their own season. They need to be put under some pressure on that point. 

Bearing in mind that Villa ans Bournemouth just us in relegation on PPG I'd say good luck PL as Bournemouth is owned by a Russian billionaire and Villa are owned by a combination of 2 multi multi multi millionaires if not billionaires.

So that would get legal very quickly and it would be very messy for PL

Plus Rick Parry has absolutely no say over what the PL does as he's EFL so the best he can hope for is to push for promotion, not for relegation.

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4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I cannot see Manure accepting PPG. If the season ends or PPG, they will still be fifth. And Wolves and Sheffield are not that far behind either so there may be a few more objections.

And anyway, what do they expect? The bottom six have as much right as the other 14.

And surely clubs will have the right to say, the restart must be played with the same squads that they finished with in March.

They are already saying clubs can bring players back into their squad who have recovered from injury and were not named in the 25 for the second half of the season.

I agree re Man U and PPG. Nor could I see the likes of Arsenal and Spurs going for it either given that it would leave them with no European football whereas at the moment they still have a chance to make up the ground. I suppose the likes of Watford, West Ham and Brighton might change their positions and vote for PPG out of self interest (although that would be disappointing as brighton have been vocal already about how they don't think its appropriate) but there are probably more than 6 teams for whom it would be contrary to their interests to accept a finish now and PPG.

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6 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Bearing in mind that Villa ans Bournemouth just us in relegation on PPG I'd say good luck PL as Bournemouth is owned by a Russian billionaire and Villa are owned by a combination of 2 multi multi multi millionaires if not billionaires.

So that would get legal very quickly and it would be very messy for PL

Plus Rick Parry has absolutely no say over what the PL does as he's EFL so the best he can hope for is to push for promotion, not for relegation.

Yes agreed but the point is that if the EFL does not finish their season (and in my view they are making no genuine attempt to do so) then the case for making us give our premier league shares to a club from the championship who have not actually completed their season must be even weaker. 

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The least likely outcome is that the season will be voided imv.

Clubs will probably be given two options: play the rest of the games behind closed doors, or accept promotion/relegation/Europe with the table as it stands now.  

 

Edited by benchwarmer

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13 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes agreed but the point is that if the EFL does not finish their season (and in my view they are making no genuine attempt to do so) then the case for making us give our premier league shares to a club from the championship who have not actually completed their season must be even weaker. 

Agreed, which is why I don't believe that PL will relegate and if the EFL want to promote on a PPG basis then that is there choice but they can then expect a legal challenge from those teams not given the chance to gain promotion by not finishing the season.

I suspect it will come down to some kind of negotiated settlement either to the PL teams relegated if based on an incomplete season or to those in the Champs who miss out, if the PL won't accept extra teams which would actually be the least legally challenging solution.

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I agree with Rich T in that at the moment we are getting glimpses of negotiating positions. One sharp(er) edged position is to place pressure, even to the extent of barely coded threat. Yet, all we know is what is being leaked to various press outlets and I'm sure they have their own agendas and interests to push too. With the meeting and a vote just after the weekend then there will be many more leaks in the next 3/4 days.  Will the PM spell out any view in the lockdown speech on Sunday? You'd think with so many other issues high on the agenda then it's highly unlikely. I'm unsure whether Belgium or even Germany will have too much influence because the EPL are desperate anyway.

It's still a case of wait and see.

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I can see them appeasing one or both of villa and west ham by naming their stadiums as neutral venues and coincidentally they each get a couple of games there...or at least a fat cheque for the use of their facilities...

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10 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

I can see them appeasing one or both of villa and west ham by naming their stadiums as neutral venues and coincidentally they each get a couple of games there...or at least a fat cheque for the use of their facilities...

Clubs wouldn't get games at their own stadiums if the neutral venue thing goes ahead.  As in doing so the venue would no longer be neutral.

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2 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

The least likely outcome is that the season will be voided imv.

Clubs will probably be given two options: play the rest of the games behind closed doors, or accept promotion/relegation/Europe with the table as it stands now.  

 

There might not be enough support for either proposition, in that 7 or more clubs vote against each one.

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Aston Villa chief against neutral venues plan

"When you say to any club, 'we want you to agree to a bunch of rule changes that may make it more likely that you get relegated', they're not thinking about TV money, they're thinking, 'my goodness, am I going to agree to something that results in me being relegated and losing £200m?"'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52566182

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4 hours ago, KiwiScot said:

Where's the FA cup fitting into this?

Can you even begin to imagine the FA Cup final being played with no fans in the stadium ?

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What happens at the foot of the table is a very low priority for the EPL so we can forget about hoping for a fair solution. The EPL is interested to get Liverpool crowned as Champions, the European places sorted and the TV money for this season to be handed over. So any deal will be to satisfy those three conditions. 

Norwich has the leverage to vote against any proposals but they need six other allies to block anything we don't like. I doubt EPL lawyers will be too concerned about our protests if they can secure a vote in their favour. 

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We all get things wrong. I thought even if an attempt was made to complete the season it would be scuppered as soon as a player or two tested positive, which was bound to happen.

I factored in everything I could think of. I assumed as a given that a Johnson-led government, keen to curry favour with voters, would agree to a restart unless the overall situation in the country was dire. I assumed as even more of a given that financial pressures would prompt the Premier League as a body and powerful individual clubs to call for a restart, even if the situation in the country was still dire.

I assumed this restart would be projected to happen under absurd condition piled upon absurd condition piled upon absurd condition that would make a total mockery of the supposed aim of a conclusion that preserved the footballing integrity of the competition.

So we apparently will have games played on neutral grounds with no spectators, and already not properly fit players who are then locked into a hotel for two months having to wear masks on the field. So much for footballing integrity

What I had underestimated was not so much the extent to which, in the world of moneyed football, greed (portrayed not entirely inaccurately as financial necessity) would outweigh medical dangers but the extent to which its PR machine could successfully spin and rationalise away that moral dilemma.

This spin personified by the Orwellian justification for a squad having to play on even in the face of one or two positive tests that it would be regarded as if someone had just picked up an injury in the normal way. Except that there is nothing normal about the entirely predictable likelihood of getting the potentially fatal  coronavirus if you are forced to play football when it is still raging through the country.

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12 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

We all get things wrong. I thought even if an attempt was made to complete the season it would be scuppered as soon as a player or two tested positive, which was bound to happen.

I factored in everything I could think of. I assumed as a given that a Johnson-led government, keen to curry favour with voters, would agree to a restart unless the overall situation in the country was dire. I assumed as even more of a given that financial pressures would prompt the Premier League as a body and powerful individual clubs to call for a restart, even if the situation in the country was still dire.

I assumed this restart would be projected to happen under absurd condition piled upon absurd condition piled upon absurd condition that would make a total mockery of the supposed aim of a conclusion that preserved the footballing integrity of the competition.

 

So we apparently will have games played on neutral grounds with no spectators, and already not properly fit players who are then locked into a hotel for two months having to wear masks on the field. So much for footballing integrity

 

What I had underestimated was not so much the extent to which, in the world of moneyed football, greed (portrayed not entirely inaccurately as financial necessity) would outweigh medical dangers but the extent to which its PR machine could successfully spin and rationalise away that moral dilemma.

This spin personified by the Orwellian justification for a squad having to play on even in the face of one or two positive tests that it would be regarded as if someone had just picked up an injury in the normal way. Except that there is nothing normal about the entirely predictable likelihood of getting the potentially fatal  coronavirus if you are forced to play football when it is still raging through the country.

Which curry? Tikka masala is my personal favourite 🤔😀

Edited by JF

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10 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

We all get things wrong. I thought even if an attempt was made to complete the season it would be scuppered as soon as a player or two tested positive, which was bound to happen.

I factored in everything I could think of. I assumed as a given that a Johnson-led government, keen to curry favour with voters, would agree to a restart unless the overall situation in the country was dire. I assumed as even more of a given that financial pressures would prompt the Premier League as a body and powerful individual clubs to call for a restart, even if the situation in the country was still dire.

I assumed this restart would be projected to happen under absurd condition piled upon absurd condition piled upon absurd condition that would make a total mockery of the supposed aim of a conclusion that preserved the footballing integrity of the competition.

 

So we apparently will have games played on neutral grounds with no spectators, and already not properly fit players who are then locked into a hotel for two months having to wear masks on the field. So much for footballing integrity

 

What I had underestimated was not so much the extent to which, in the world of moneyed football, greed (portrayed not entirely inaccurately as financial necessity) would outweigh medical dangers but the extent to which its PR machine could successfully spin and rationalise away that moral dilemma.

This spin personified by the Orwellian justification for a squad having to play on even in the face of one or two positive tests that it would be regarded as if someone had just picked up an injury in the normal way. Except that there is nothing normal about the entirely predictable likelihood of getting the potentially fatal  coronavirus if you are forced to play football when it is still raging through the country.

Time will tell who is or was wrong Purple. I still firmly believe that even if this gets the go ahead if there are more than a few positive tests or if any player or relative of a player contracts Covid 19 as a result and is hospitalised then it will bring the whole thing crashing down.

The Germans seem to have a real grip on their media and players. The positive tests there seem to have been downplayed/brushed over but I can only assume that none of them so far are serious cases. 

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Worth pointing out that the EFL’s internal plan that was leaked last week show that they intend to promote but not relegate. So if the EFL promote 3 into the PL and the PL relegate 3 with no relegation going into league 1 the championship next season will have 27 teams. 

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2 minutes ago, JF said:

Worth pointing out that the EFL’s internal plan that was leaked last week show that they intend to promote but not relegate. So if the EFL promote 3 into the PL and the PL relegate 3 with no relegation going into league 1 the championship next season will have 27 teams. 

Could this work in the favour of the bottom 3 or 6  therefore, that if this is true, matches are played out but likewise there is no relegation but a temporarily enlarged PL next year? I.e. the bottom 6 agree to the neutral venue idea in order to unlock the TV revenues and determine European places etc. Yet the one rule of no relegation is in place like the EFL. I know......I am clutching at straws.

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