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dylanisabaddog

Relegated on points per game

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With PPG Villa would take every bit of legal action open to them. They would really add to the ‘ get to a cup final and you will be relegated ‘

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3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

We were promoted on merit and we are now bottom of the EPL on merit. It would be hard to argue against any formula that did relegate us.

However, if there was a class action by the teams relegated I am sure we would want to be a part of that. And if it came down to a pay off I am sure we would take it.

As has been said there is no fair way but there has to be a method that is acceptable. Remember, it doesn't have to be acceptable to the EFL. The EPL could say any number of things but if they said no relegation then that would be it. If we are keen on staying in the EPL they better start getting their lobbying boots on this morning.

Can't argue with that kg, but imagine if you were in Villa or Bournemouth's shoes with any formula?

 

What about this also;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52493894

 

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7 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

True and if you look at who we lost to in that league run it was Man U, Wolves, Spurs and Shef U away and Liverpool at home.

I know we have Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City away to come but the other 6 games are definitely more in the category of "could get something".

The alternative argument is in the return fixtures against those 6 teams we took 3 points from a possible 18.

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3 minutes ago, king canary said:

They are on a very marginal upward trend and I don't think you can really count cup games. We could even double the number of points picked up in those 8 games and we'd still be likely to go down.

Again, cannot disagree with that sentiment king, but the key word here is 'likely'. It cannot be used to determine anything.

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7 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

We were promoted on merit and we are now bottom of the EPL on merit. It would be hard to argue against any formula that did relegate us.

However, if there was a class action by the teams relegated I am sure we would want to be a part of that. And if it came down to a pay off I am sure we would take it.

As has been said there is no fair way but there has to be a method that is acceptable. Remember, it doesn't have to be acceptable to the EFL. The EPL could say any number of things but if they said no relegation then that would be it. If we are keen on staying in the EPL they better start getting their lobbying boots on this morning.

I agree with this. Jim is right that there is an obvious argument over fairness but we can't make much of a claim that relegation was in the balance for us.

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If I was betting on this, of the options, I would put a small amount of money on no teams being relegated from the Premier League this season. I would change my mind if it became apparent that both the PL and the Championship were going to be played to a finish.

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From a personal perspective I would accept relegation on this basis however unfair it is, but I would not be happy with the same method being used to promote teams. My understanding is that football in France is administered differently to the UK in that the two  top leagues are run by the same body, whereas the Premier League here is administered by the FA and the remaining leagues by the Football League. My understanding is that when you get promoted from the Championship to the Premier League you effectively apply to join. I think the set up in England will be the complications factor, even if you accept that Leeds and WBA get promoted who will the third team be, looking at the league you could go all the way down to QPR in 13th place and argue they have a chance of getting into the play offs. The cleanest thing to do, again in my opinion, would be to draw a line under football not only this season but next season also, until there is a vaccine and until it is as about as safe as it can be. I would also say bin the Euros until 2024, bin the World Cup until 2026 (Qatar can still host it then), bin the the Olympics until 2024 (Tokyo can still host it) etc........ 

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10 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

From a personal perspective I would accept relegation on this basis however unfair it is, but I would not be happy with the same method being used to promote teams. My understanding is that football in France is administered differently to the UK in that the two  top leagues are run by the same body, whereas the Premier League here is administered by the FA and the remaining leagues by the Football League. My understanding is that when you get promoted from the Championship to the Premier League you effectively apply to join. I think the set up in England will be the complications factor, even if you accept that Leeds and WBA get promoted who will the third team be, looking at the league you could go all the way down to QPR in 13th place and argue they have a chance of getting into the play offs. The cleanest thing to do, again in my opinion, would be to draw a line under football not only this season but next season also, until there is a vaccine and until it is as about as safe as it can be. I would also say bin the Euros until 2024, bin the World Cup until 2026 (Qatar can still host it then), bin the the Olympics until 2024 (Tokyo can still host it) etc........ 

Tokyo already Stated that if Olympics dont go ahead 2021, then they wont happen. They prepared to postpone ....once only.

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Should the season finish normally we would LIKELY have been relegated. Not certain. Equally, it's LIKELY Leeds would have been promoted. Not certain.

What is certain is last season we DEFINITELY finished the season as the best team in the championship which entitled us to 38 games in the top division. In no way do we deserve to lose our Premier League place which was fully deserved to a Championship side who hasn't got enough points to guarantee promotion.

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Posted (edited)

I have to agree with those saying 'if there is any form of relegation - we will be relegated' . Whether the season is completed or not. 

I'm betting the season gets finished (even if it is an absolute shambles, and a dangerous one too). 

However, even if we do get relegated without kicking another ball - I personally won't feel too hard done by. The table doesn't lie - we've been the worst performing team in the league up until this point. 

Edited by HertsCanary93

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2 minutes ago, HertsCanary93 said:

I have to agree with those saying 'if there is any form of relegation - we will be relegated' . Whether the season is completed or not. 

I'm betting the season gets finished (even if it is an absolute shambles, and a dangerous one too). 

However, even if we do get relegated without kicking another ball - I personally won't feel too hard done by. The table doesn't lie - we've been the worst performing team in the league up until this point. 

Surprised at the amount of fans saying this, especially considering the massive impact it will likely have on the future of the club. Let's not forget we would be hit by a double whammy of loss of revenue from the remaining quarter of the season, and the relegation itself.

In my opinion, relegating a team on anything other than a full season of games, with all teams being played both home and away and in-front of a crowd would be extremely unjust and could well have lasting repercussions on football in this Country. I would say exactly the same if it was any other team in our position.
 

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The reality part of my brain agrees, but I’ll stand by a positive frame of mind as I’m sure Farke does until the end.

If the PL is played out behind closed doors will this be of benefit to us or negative?

I think it would be a positive, just a hunch. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ian said:



In my opinion, relegating a team on anything other than a full season of games, with all teams being played both home and away and in-front of a crowd would be extremely unjust and could well have lasting repercussions on football in this Country. I would say exactly the same if it was any other team in our position.
 

True, I would say it is unfair too. The fact remains though that we are the most likely team to be relegated by whatever means. The high chance of relegation was accepted and planned for by the board before a ball was kicked this season. Its not as if we were looking odds on to steam up the table is it? 

The point raised ref that only  14 teams votes is enough to decide what happens , to me means we've already signed up to abiding by league decisions....or we wouldn't have been allowed up in the first place. Deals cut both ways.

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4 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

True, I would say it is unfair too. The fact remains though that we are the most likely team to be relegated by whatever means. The high chance of relegation was accepted and planned for by the board before a ball was kicked this season. Its not as if we were looking odds on to steam up the table is it? 

The point raised ref that only  14 teams votes is enough to decide what happens , to me means we've already signed up to abiding by league decisions....or we wouldn't have been allowed up in the first place. Deals cut both ways.

You do realise there are 3 teams in the relegation zone right?

Nobody is disputing any of the points you made there, but the bigger picture is that it would be unprecedented and totally unjust to relegate a team in any division on the basis of some sort of mathematical PPG model. Might as well forget about sport entirely and just run it in a spreadsheet. And assuming this filters down through all the levels of the pyramid, it's going to have a catastrophic impact on a lot of clubs.

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They should just ask Lawro to predict the rest of the season, we'd be certain to finish on 21 points!

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Posted (edited)

We're not going to roll over and conform to being 'Little Old Norwich' or a 'lovely' family Club. Aside from all the other Clubs who are in relegation positions etc (Bournemouth are in the relegation zone, by 1 goal difference) just because we are bottom, we are not going to stand aside without a fight, and if we (all teams) fight , then the EPL will not want any legal fight, as that will cost time (which no one has in football terms, or money).

I would be surprised if they got to a situation where the 14+ teams decide who will go down and the future impact/relations that particular decision would have  (The title is another thing) 

Edited by Crabbycanary3

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Nobody is disputing any of the points you made there, but the bigger picture is that it would be unprecedented and totally unjust to relegate a team in any division on the basis of some sort of mathematical PPG model. Might as well forget about sport entirely and just run it in a spreadsheet. And assuming this filters down through all the levels of the pyramid, it's going to have a catastrophic impact on a lot of clubs.

I don't think anyone is saying it would be fair because we do have a chance of staying up. But people  are throwing form into the mix. What form? They haven't played a game for weeks.

The opinion of some of us is that if any formula for relegation is used, bearing in mind our position in the league wasn't contrived but was caused because we were the worst performing team in the EPL based on 29 games, we couldn't really argue against any of the data used.

Remember the EPL decides not the other three leagues so it is pointless pointing out the positions of WBA, Leeds etc.

But the whole scenario surrounding this virus is so surreal, any decision will be greeted with applause or derision. But the most unfair thing is not football but those poor people who turned up for work to help sick people and became sick and died themselves.

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Ultimately I believe that the emotional side of the game is clouding what should be a pretty straightforward decision.

Will it be sad for the generation of Liverpool fans who have never seen their team lift the PL trophy? Sure. But there are 27,000 people that will never see any team lift any title again as a result of the virus.

Void the season, accept that these circumstances are extraordinary, and leave the people who get paid enough to work out how to restart on the other side.

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11 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

Ultimately I believe that the emotional side of the game is clouding what should be a pretty straightforward decision.

Will it be sad for the generation of Liverpool fans who have never seen their team lift the PL trophy? Sure. But there are 27,000 people that will never see any team lift any title again as a result of the virus.

Void the season, accept that these circumstances are extraordinary, and leave the people who get paid enough to work out how to restart on the other side.

Absolutely this. Take away fans of teams in prominent positions and the only people who want football restarted again are only doing it for monetary reasons. For me it's a non-starter. It's not important. It used to be a form of entertainment, but now is ultimately a business as we all know, but why on earth should football even be part of the conversation right now. 

LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE STILL DYING! EVERY DAY!!

I would say this whatever team I supported. Scrap it, get it off the agenda and spend more time trying to get to grips with the mess that the country is going to be in at the end of this. 

Football. Doesn't. Matter.

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21 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Nobody is disputing any of the points you made there, but the bigger picture is that it would be unprecedented and totally unjust to relegate a team in any division on the basis of some sort of mathematical PPG model. Might as well forget about sport entirely and just run it in a spreadsheet. And assuming this filters down through all the levels of the pyramid, it's going to have a catastrophic impact on a lot of clubs.

I don't think anyone is saying it would be fair because we do have a chance of staying up. But people  are throwing form into the mix. What form? They haven't played a game for weeks.

The opinion of some of us is that if any formula for relegation is used, bearing in mind our position in the league wasn't contrived but was caused because we were the worst performing team in the EPL based on 29 games, we couldn't really argue against any of the data used.

Remember the EPL decides not the other three leagues so it is pointless pointing out the positions of WBA, Leeds etc.

But the whole scenario surrounding this virus is so surreal, any decision will be greeted with applause or derision. But the most unfair thing is not football but those poor people who turned up for work to help sick people and became sick and died themselves.

I don't think anybody would disagree with what you have said, and I don't think it is particularly at odds with my point either. Obviously we are at the bottom of the pile by some margin, so any maths involved are going to find us in the same position, and I don't think many would disagree with that.

My point really was that it should really be a non-starter to use maths to determine a season for anything other than arbitrary reasons (e.g. top 6 for UEFA places or whatever) - and certainly not something which such a high impact as relegation. The French obviously see this differently so it will be very interesting to follow what happens there.

I completely agree that football pales in comparison to the tragedy that has befallen many people and families due to CoronaVirus, and other awful worldwide events that we so frequently ignore because it doesn't impact on our own lives - these are doubtless the true injustice for many. But ultimately, sport represents a release for some, a return to normality for others, and a livelihood for many lower-paid workers connected to the club - so I still think it is valid to have this discussion, to be shocked/delighted at the decisions made, and not just to roll over meekly as a club if some dangerous or ridiculous kludge is put in place.

This is not to disrespect anybody who has been affected by this unprecedented crisis, or to promote football above its natural position of entertainment and tribal release; but IMO it would still be unjust and set a very bad precedent to kick the bottom 3 out of the league on anything other than a full, standard, season.

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Guardian is now saying that the EFL contingency is to promote Leeds and WBA and then hold 3 playoff games to determine the 3rd promoted sides.

They are desperately hoping the premier league can finish so it can "resolve its relegation places" and it appears to be acknowledged that if you can't do that then its hard to find a fair way of resolving relegation.

If this is the plan being cooked up then leaving aside the health risks and integrity issues associated with finishing t=behind closed doors its clearly not in our interests nor those of any other team who could possibly go down. I really don't see why teams should benefit from being promoted from the championship on the basis of an incomplete season at our expense. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Guardian is now saying that the EFL contingency is to promote Leeds and WBA and then hold 3 playoff games to determine the 3rd promoted sides.

They are desperately hoping the premier league can finish so it can "resolve its relegation places" and it appears to be acknowledged that if you can't do that then its hard to find a fair way of resolving relegation.

If this is the plan being cooked up then leaving aside the health risks and integrity issues associated with finishing t=behind closed doors its clearly not in our interests nor those of any other team who could possibly go down. I really don't see why teams should benefit from being promoted from the championship on the basis of an incomplete season at our expense. 

Completely agree. In my opinion if one league concludes it fixtures and the other doesn’t then that contract on promotion and relegation across a completed season has been broken. I can’t see the bottom clubs accepting this. Not to mention the legal challenges that would start within the EFL if they just promote the top 2 and close the play off positions as they are 

Edited by JF

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I can't see a unanimous decision being made to relegate any clubs. 7 teams need to vote against any proposal, and we have to assume that to draw a line under the season here and now that proposal has to apply to all of the league? That means automatically (one would hope) the three teams that the proposal will relegate will vote against it. But where do the other 4 no votes come from? Those teams competing for European places. Arsenal in 9th are only 5 points off of 5th place (which is potentially a CL spot next season) they aren't going to vote for something that stops them from qualifying for any European competition! Similarly Leicester won't vote for anything that sees them drop out of a Champions League spot. The only way they will get any potential consensus is to scrap relegation, and even then I am doubtful. 

All of the proposals have at least 7 losers therefore it's a non starter. 

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1 hour ago, Ian said:

You do realise there are 3 teams in the relegation zone right?

Nobody is disputing any of the points you made there, but the bigger picture is that it would be unprecedented and totally unjust to relegate a team in any division on the basis of some sort of mathematical PPG model. Might as well forget about sport entirely and just run it in a spreadsheet. And assuming this filters down through all the levels of the pyramid, it's going to have a catastrophic impact on a lot of clubs.

I do realise that , yes.(the three clubs bit)

I am not advocating any particular method of finalising anything, just pointing out that weve signed up to EPL rules, and if the EPL members vote for ppg or whatever else method then we'll have to agree. I dont like it but thats how it is. Someone gave the analogy earlier of a Golf clubs abiding rules. You sign up, you have a vote, but votes may not go your way.

Signing up when it suits us, then squeaking when it doesnt . 

I was more pleased with winning the Championship last season than reaching the 'Promised Land'.

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2 hours ago, HertsCanary93 said:

up until this point. 

This is the point though - you don't expect to get relegated on 75% of a season with survival still a possibility, although not a likelihood.

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1 hour ago, Matt Juler said:

They should just ask Lawro to predict the rest of the season, we'd be certain to finish on 21 points!

Probably less than that! 😀

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As stated above , EFL looking at 3 match playoff....a shorter solution. They ,EPL and EFL are running out of time, but its their job to try to come up with solutions....until they have no chance of completion, then they can throw up their hands and say 'we tried and tried again'....and itll go to a vote. The result of that being us relegated or a bigger EPL next season, whenever that may be. No point getting in a lather.

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17 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Guardian is now saying that the EFL contingency is to promote Leeds and WBA and then hold 3 playoff games to determine the 3rd promoted sides.

But if I were an owner/ fan of Bristol, Millwall, Cardiff, Blackburn, Swansea I'd be very unhappy with this.

Preston have lost 4 out of the last 5; Forest and Brentford have only won 1 in their last 5! At least one, if not more of the current top six would probably have missed the playoffs if the season had continued! I'd be consulting my lawyers if I were a rich owner!

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18 minutes ago, The Walking Man said:

All of the proposals have at least 7 losers therefore it's a non starter. 

And then there is legal action...

I can't see a solution at all! But of course there has to be one - the least terrible will have it!

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