German football in May?

[T 190]

33 minutes ago, City 2nd said:

Germany is not a couple of months ahead of the UK. Their figures are lower simply because their population is much lower than that of the UK! Social distancing is the only major way for ANY country to control the epidemic. If you do not have social distancing then the R factor will rise, and the infection figures for that country will start to rise. It’s not rocket science. Lift restrictions like social distancing for football alone as a moral booster is a huge mistake, because if it’s deemed good enough for footballers, the populace will follow suit, and ignore policy. 

Sorry but every part of that is factually incorrect  

 

Population. No Germany has over 80 m people.
 

Couple months ahead on testing   Yes Germany has always had the level of testing UK has now got but also has always had the tracing U.K. hasn’t got get. and is expanding further 

 

No social distancing is not the only way of controlling a disease. The best way is track trace isolate eg S Korea as best example, healthcare with Germany having over 5 times more iCU capacity in Germany and going forward treatment and vaccination. 
 

No football in Germany is not being released in isolation. It only potentially part of releasing restrictions for the whole population 

People are looking at this through U.K. eyes. iTje situation in Germany is very different because of test trace and isolate from the beginning  And a more effective political healthcare and education system. It’s like winning major football competitions. It doesn’t just happen. They plan for it. Meanwhile U.K. has been messing around for three years obsessed with nationalism. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

And because Germany don’t test for Covid 19 in post mortems thus under reporting Covid 19 deaths. 

[pete 318]

We all agree that the PL's plans are nuts especially if one player gets infected we play on.  Now they have stated this categorically this will put pressure on the government to stop this madness.  Still losing 600 people a day and that is with widespread isolating.  Relaxation of some sort will be agreed next week whilst the virus goes on unchecked infections will increase that is a given.  Encouraging the PL to put players etc. in danger by the government will backfire spectacularly.  I expect the opposition to use this argument to ridicule this plan, and point out the PM is happily putting the population in dire straits.  I really don't see Boris taking the flak and will abandon this folly at the earliest opportunity.

[Van wink 2,994]

30 minutes ago, T said:

You are getting desperate now. 

Really! 

So you think its better to be using testing capacity for footballers rather than helping third world nations.  Clearly your priorities are different to most.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Van wink

[T 190]

No I’m saying the testing is so wide in Germany that it is available to all workers. Footballers are just another workers so no need for special treatment. 
 

Germany fully believes in international cooperation and is supporting the EU and is and will no doubt support other countries. Germany believes in international cooperation as they fully recognise you can only beat this and recover if you work internationally that is why Germany fully supports the EU. 
 

But hey great this is comical because you may have finally just grasped why perusing reduced international cooperation is complete and utter nonsense and immoral so it is a bit rich for some one who is against international cooperation to preach to someone and a country that is all for international cooperation  Germans get it because they are better educated  it is the UK where the majority haven’t grasped the benefits of international cooperation  

 

 

[Mello Yello 2,273]

Anyway.....Up yours 'T'.....I'm now watching 'Battle Of Britain' on ITV4 and the German Luftwaffe are getting their Ar$es kicked....."TALLY HO!"......

....."GET SOME!"...... 🇬🇧😎

[T 190]

How is being so xenophobic that UK focused the last three years on nationalism rather than taking expert advice and planning for a pandemic working out for the UK. How is the view that immigrant essential workers are not important working out. ?  Covid 19 has exposed the nonsense but clearly some people will never learn. The xenophobics won the vote but lost the argument and lives. 
 

i think you will find that Italy and Greece will gladly take the German Eiros at the end of the day and Italy was happy to use German healthcare. 
 

But I’m bored of all that xenophobic nonsense that people still spout. CV 19 doesn’t respect the little England mentality and neither doesn’t any decent person. 

[Mello Yello 2,273]

4 minutes ago, T said:

How is being so xenophobic that UK focused the last three years on nationalism rather than taking expert advice and planning for a pandemic working out for the UK. How is the view that immigrant essential workers are not important working out. ?  Covid 19 has exposed the nonsense but clearly some people will never learn. The xenophobics won the vote but lost the argument and lives. 
 

i think you will find that Italy and Greece will gladly take the German Eiros at the end of the day and Italy was happy to use German healthcare. 
 

But I’m bored of all that xenophobic nonsense that people still spout. CV 19 doesn’t respect the little England mentality and neither doesn’t any decent person. 

[Van wink 2,994]

44 minutes ago, T said:

No I’m saying the testing is so wide in Germany that it is available to all workers. Footballers are just another workers so no need for special treatment. 
 

So why waste a resources on footballers that could be helping to save lives in the third world. It’s grotesque during a pandemic.

[T 190]

Why waste resources on footballers at all. You could argue that at any time. I didn’t have you down as a complete utter headbanger  but you seem to be determined to bang your head against this particularly wall. Footballers are workers so they entitled to testing just like other workers. Just because the UK is struggling to get its act together doesn’t mean Germany is. . You need wide spread testing everywhere as UK also acknowledges. Germany fully supports international development unlike the UK hard right xenophobes. 

[Van wink 2,994]

32 minutes ago, T said:

Why waste resources on footballers at all. You could argue that at any time.

Yeh but we happen to be in a Pandemic, footballers and related staff will need a massive number of tests, they are needed elsewhere at the moment. If you think thats being a head banger then I'm afraid that reflects more on you than me. Its not justifieable in the current situation where underdeveloped countries are desperate for help.

[T 190]

But Germany has a massive number of tests! Planned 4.5 m a week so football isn’t going to make any difference whatsoever. It is just some of the massive number of tests. Germany just isn’t in the same situation at all. You are still looking at this from a UK experience perspective. Germany has a functional political, healthcare, education and infrastructure system unlike the UK where  the main priority of the majority has been nationalism.as the UK has ignored its real problems which have been exposed by CB19. Germany is a massive machine. Football just isn’t going to make any impact whatsoever on this massive machine. If you say that opening football in football in the UK is wrong I would completely agree with you at the moment because the UK is a mess but Germany isn’t. 

[Van wink 2,994]

Its a world pandemic, in that context German football is irrelevant. If they have spare capacity they should be helping others where thousands of people are dying.

[T 190]

Well we have seen how few aspects of society are really essential. Football is just another form of sport and entertainment. People needs distractions and entertainment. People die around the world all the time. If we take your Argument Logic  then we should ban football for ever. This epidemic could well be endemic so no football ever then.
 

Germany supports the EU as well as international programs. You are against international cooperation not me and not Germany.  I’m not the one that thinks nationalism is more important than people so if you are saying your misguided parochial  nationalism views are wrong then I completely agree with. Welcome to the enlightened who recognise the world is round and people are connected. I’ve been arguing that point for a long time and it is great you are finally getting it. 

[Van wink 2,994]

Most of what you allege above about me is unfounded and offensive rubbish. That you need to resort to that is a matter for you.

You seem oblivious to the fact that this is a global emergency and not normal times, if Germany has the massive testing resources as you claim then their moral duty is to help save lives rather  than waste them on footballers. There is plenty of time for football to resume but it isn’t now, when people are dying all over the world and crying out for help, now is not the time to waste resource on frivolous activity but to help them. 

[Rivvo 257]

2 hours ago, T said:

How is being so xenophobic that UK focused the last three years on nationalism rather than taking expert advice and planning for a pandemic working out for the UK. How is the view that immigrant essential workers are not important working out. ?  Covid 19 has exposed the nonsense but clearly some people will never learn. The xenophobics won the vote but lost the argument and lives. 
 

i think you will find that Italy and Greece will gladly take the German Eiros at the end of the day and Italy was happy to use German healthcare. 
 

But I’m bored of all that xenophobic nonsense that people still spout. CV 19 doesn’t respect the little England mentality and neither doesn’t any decent person. 

It’s not xenophobic for the government to concentrate on executing the will of the people as expressed in a democratic vote, it’s not necessarily xenophobic for people to have voted to leave the EU either, you should direct your vitriol at the government who has overseen 10 years of ‘austerity’ cuts to public services and the government that made it ‘necessary’ for them to have to do it in the first place. That is what has made the UK lag behind in terms of dealing with this. I didn’t vote to leave but a majority did and that’s the way it goes, presumably there’s the £350 million per week going into the NHS though. I cannot have any faith in any politician no matter what party they represent, they all represent their or their cronies own best interests, no real point voting now it would seem?

[T 190]

Getting rid of those pesky immigrants who saves lives and provide essential things like  food supplies was tithe key rallying cry from the brexiteers. That has been brutally exposed as xenophobic nonsense. The amount to the NHS was a lie and the EU it still being paid. That making the U.K. worse off imakes the NHS better off is complete nonsense that only the ignorant and stupid believe. The U.K. focused on nationalism. rather than more important things like healthcare. Germany conzributed to the EU and it has performed s lot better than the nationalistic obsessed U.K.  A lesson there they’re that has cost 45k lives and yet the nationalists and xenophobes srtill think their misguided believes are more important than healthcare. You could not make it up. 

[Rivvo 257]

Hence my sarcastic reference of the £350 million, mind you I did well only to get a 🥴 rather than being called a nationalistic, xenophobic racist. 

[T 190]

I fully appreciate the Brexit angle is tedious and  it’s supporters are defensive about it. Im also sick of it. Anyone who knows and understands basic economics knows Brexit is nonsense but the public was misled and they voted for it so I’ve always said it should be implemented on democratic grounds. Sometimes the majority can be fooled but they have to learn the hard way. 
 

But the brexit vote which was marginal with a range of positions was hijacked by the hard right into something extreme which was never sold to the public at the time. Consequently Brexit was the primary focus of the government for over 3 years to the extent expert pandemic warnings were ignored in accordance with the Brexit what do experts know Mantra nonsense and it was decided to use emergency planning resources for Brexit rather than pandemic planning. Emergency planning is crucial. This did not come from me but a professor in emergency planning. The government had the wrong priorities and it has cost thousands of premature lives. I understand that people are biologically programmed to be xenophobic but Covid 19 has brutally exposed that they are more important priorities than nationalism.
 

I always argued that Brexit would have negative effects but wasn’t the end of the world but that there was more important priorities for the time and resources like healthcare. I’ve been proven right but I admit more right than I realised. There are a lot more important things than the Brexit nonsense and I think Boris would agree me on that at least privately. 

[Pugin 601]

43 minutes ago, T said:

I understand that people are biologically programmed to be xenophobic but Covid 19 has brutally exposed that they are more important priorities than nationalism.
 

Whoah! You may wish to re-think that assertion. No one is born a racist any more than they are born hating the family next door. It is taught / indoctrinated.

[Van wink 2,994]

31 minutes ago, Pugin said:

Whoah! You may wish to re-think that assertion. No one is born a racist any more than they are born hating the family next door. It is taught / indoctrinated.

I’m afraid he has some very odd, binary, views about people, possibly due to some bad experience in the past, so I do have some sympathy, but it limits any discussion. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Van wink

[T 190]

The old nature versus nurture. Elements of both I suspect.
 

My understanding is that we are biologically programmed to be xenophobic in that we are programmed to see people from another „tribe“ as a potentially threat to our survival instinct. We are naturally drawn to people like ourselves as eg when we interview people which is why HR will advise independent testing and looking for evidence. Psychological tests always show biases to people most like ourselves even among those who like to think they are not biased I understand. 
 

That we are biologically programmed to fit to  social norms to be part of the group herd for survival and acceptance is also a strong instinct I understand and therefore I fully agree that nurture has a strong influence as you suggest is also very true. . So yes we are influenced by people around us who think xenophobia is acceptable or not. 
 

So when I say that I think xenophobia was a strong influence in Brexit it is because the biological ltiggers were being pressed in the messages but yes also because people were being socially influenced by the views of people around them. Social media Is used to spread and confirm the idea that there are other people with xenophobic views to spread its acceptance. They know how to use social media to spread their ideas. 
 

Cummings is a smart educated guy and knows all this and manipulated people very skilfully as he knew these fundamental instincts are far more powerful than some abstract logic and reason. For him I think it was almost a social experiment. I do have a begrudging admiration for the bogeymans manipulation skills as much as I deplore his views. 

[essex canary 490]

Perhaps a big issue in Brexit was that the Americans decided to build up Germany again after the war and to a large extent made us Brits pay for it.  Our people quite rightly resent that.

That said it appears that modern day Germany is a far more egalitarian society than ours. It relies much more on industrial efficiency rather than oxbridge elites and spivs that siphon off money all over the place including to odious regimes such as Saudi Arabia. That is the modern lesson we need to learn to be seen to be more in keeping with modern northern Europe.  

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Perhaps a big issue in Brexit was that the Americans decided to build up Germany again after the war and to a large extent made us Brits pay for it.  Our people quite rightly resent that.

That said it appears that modern day Germany is a far more egalitarian society than ours. It relies much more on industrial efficiency rather than oxbridge elites and spivs that siphon off money all over the place including to odious regimes such as Saudi Arabia. That is the modern lesson we need to learn to be seen to be more in keeping with modern northern Europe.  

Germany is the luckiest nation in the world. Once they were party to the war in Europe as an effort to assert there dominance. And another time they unleashed the cruellest regime to have existed. A year after the second war they became an ally. Their nation was rebuilt and flourished just because it was a buffer against the Soviet Union and also to parade the wealth and value of consumerism of the western world in front of the eastern bloc.

It took us a long time to reach that standard after the war. So for all those who believe that Germany is so marvellous then yes they have a talent for organisation and innovation but so much of it has been achieved at the expense of others.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

33 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Perhaps a big issue in Brexit was that the Americans decided to build up Germany again after the war and to a large extent made us Brits pay for it.  Our people quite rightly resent that.

That said it appears that modern day Germany is a far more egalitarian society than ours. It relies much more on industrial efficiency rather than oxbridge elites and spivs that siphon off money all over the place including to odious regimes such as Saudi Arabia. That is the modern lesson we need to learn to be seen to be more in keeping with modern northern Europe.  

Those two paragraphs sound as though they were written by two totally different people:

The first paragraph is total rubbish; two quick points - the Americans decided to build up the whole of Europe (though Russia and some of the other European states it controlled refused the offer) and indeed parts of Asia, there was no focus on Germany - over a dozen European countries received aid. The UK received more than double the aid that Germany did and when you say we were made to pay for it I assume you are just talking about the National Debt which had grown enormously as a result of fighting two world wars and a depression in the previous 35 years but nothing to do with post war reconstruction.

Second paragraph; spot on, couldn't agree more especially the reference to northern Europe because what you say applies to a number of other countries as well not just Germany (although they do seem to have the efficiency bit absolutely nailed!)   😃

[Monty13 2,229]

3 hours ago, T said:

I fully appreciate the Brexit angle is tedious and  it’s supporters are defensive about it. Im also sick of it. Anyone who knows and understands basic economics knows Brexit is nonsense but the public was misled and they voted for it so I’ve always said it should be implemented on democratic grounds. Sometimes the majority can be fooled but they have to learn the hard way. 
 

But the brexit vote which was marginal with a range of positions was hijacked by the hard right into something extreme which was never sold to the public at the time. Consequently Brexit was the primary focus of the government for over 3 years to the extent expert pandemic warnings were ignored in accordance with the Brexit what do experts know Mantra nonsense and it was decided to use emergency planning resources for Brexit rather than pandemic planning. Emergency planning is crucial. This did not come from me but a professor in emergency planning. The government had the wrong priorities and it has cost thousands of premature lives. I understand that people are biologically programmed to be xenophobic but Covid 19 has brutally exposed that they are more important priorities than nationalism.
 

I always argued that Brexit would have negative effects but wasn’t the end of the world but that there was more important priorities for the time and resources like healthcare. I’ve been proven right but I admit more right than I realised. There are a lot more important things than the Brexit nonsense and I think Boris would agree me on that at least privately. 

While I’m loathe to get involved in a Brexit argument, especially as someone without strong feelings either way (yes we do exist, in quite large, quiet, numbers). I do find it amusing that the deadlock of the last three years is blamed by you on the government when given a decent majority they did exactly what they said they would and we left the EU within a few months to the point people like myself barely noticed it had happened if the news hadn’t reported it.

Yes there’s still miles to go in sorting out the details in trade and cooperation, but when I think about the complete political waste and paralysis of the last 3+ years it’s an interesting argument to blame that on the government.

[essex canary 490]

Creative Midfielder, surely the whole point is even if we received twice as much Marshall aid money as Germany, in the two world wars we were in the right and they were in the wrong so (perhaps leaving aside their squabbles with the French) they didn't deserve theirs did they? And as you have said we virtually bankrupted ourselves fighting their evil. We might also reflect though that one excuse they point to in relation to their evil was slavery in the United States and the cruelty of other western European empires including our own.

Nevertheless what really matters now is how we deal with the 21st. century. Biological and Climate Change challenges need international co-ordination.        

[sgncfc 1,221]

50 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

we left the EU within a few months to the point people like myself barely noticed it had happened

That might be because we haven't actually left yet....

On the BAME NHS staff issue, there was an inept article in the media this week that BAME employees should be withdrawn from the front line as they appeared to be more susceptible to Covid 19. The problem being that about 70% of frontline NHS staff are BAME in London particularly, but also elsewhere. So that would be no nurses at all then....

[Monty13 2,229]

9 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

That might be because we haven't actually left yet....

On the BAME NHS staff issue, there was an inept article in the media this week that BAME employees should be withdrawn from the front line as they appeared to be more susceptible to Covid 19. The problem being that about 70% of frontline NHS staff are BAME in London particularly, but also elsewhere. So that would be no nurses at all then....

Hate to break it too you but we have. We’ve left the political entity, which is the first stage and the thing parliament spent 3 years arguing about what the withdrawal agreement looked like. We are no longer a member of the EU.

 

[T 190]

1 hour ago, essex canary said:

Creative Midfielder, surely the whole point is even if we received twice as much Marshall aid money as Germany, in the two world wars we were in the right and they were in the wrong so (perhaps leaving aside their squabbles with the French) they didn't deserve theirs did they? And as you have said we virtually bankrupted ourselves fighting their evil. We might also reflect though that one excuse they point to in relation to their evil was slavery in the United States and the cruelty of other western European empires including our own.

Nevertheless what really matters now is how we deal with the 21st. century. Biological and Climate Change challenges need international co-ordination.        

It’s tedious old ground. If the Govt had gone for the advertised soft Brexit it would have gone quickly. Yes also if the i don’t like but accept a soft brexit had capitulated at the start then yes it would have been over a lot quicker   Either way a hard brexit means years and years of negotiation   Regardless  I’ve always thought there were lots more important priorities like healthcare education and infrastructure. You known those things we horrible Germans have so are better ableto cope with a crisis. Even the German hard right think that Brexit is a stupid idea because the general education system is good enough that everyone knows it’s economic madness not to be part of the EU however much the nationalists dislike it.