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9th June d Day for PL

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7 hours ago, JF said:

Premier league get their telly money and no promotion or relegation from the championship I would presume 

 

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This should focus some minds within the PL 

 

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35 minutes ago, Essjayess said:

I agree Indy. yr replied with an apology, which  was not really needed, but i gave yr a thumbs up and thought it was a nice reply as it contained much football related  stuff from his view of things  Difficult times, and even though so, there are plenty  i appreciate, that  regard  such things as promtion, relegation etc as important, even if my  humble self regard them as not.

From a fooball perspective, the thing im missing most right now, is seeing DF walk to the fans and preparing to raise his arms  in acknowledgement of another great City performance. Lets hope such moments are not to far off into the distance.

Indeed Essjayess, it’ll be a great day when we can all walk side by side to the ground after a few beers. Hopefully not to far away. 👍

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48 minutes ago, Bill said:

or more accurately football will not survive unless the TV income (or replacement) is not handed over

It is quite staggering to see how many fail to grasp even the basics of finance in this regard

 

clubs cannot simply go into suspended animation and re-appear a few months hence, they either get the money or go bust

and before any squeaks sound off, I am not endorsing playing these games, merely pointing out the stark facts

More importantly, the industry needs to understand that for the time being at least the unlimited flow of money has stopped and it has to cut its cloth accordingly, just as every other person and business is doing.

The PFA need to agree a cut in players wages that allows clubs to survive otherwise the players might well find they have no jobs at all come August..

Football is not immune to basic economics.

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1 minute ago, duke63 said:

More importantly, the industry needs to understand that for the time being at least the unlimited flow of money has stopped and it has to cut its cloth accordingly, just as every other person and business is doing.

The PFA need to agree a cut in players wages that allows clubs to survive otherwise the players might well find they have no jobs at all come August..

Football is not immune to basic economics.

That is the very point - either find the money to meet existing commitments for this season, or go bust

Do that and it then takes football to it;s natural break It is then that it will have to cut it's cloth..... ,not before as some imagine

it would be useful if there were to be some kind of 'clearing house for what clubs owe each other ie whatever Leicester etc still owe us is credited to us, just as what we owe is the credited to others. That way debt is levelled down and lower league clubs would in the majority be net beneficiaries.

The PFA and other trade bodies would have to agree on massive wage deferments that might well turn to wage cuts. Get this season sorted so that £800m or so is paid over, and then re-set the game back to a more sane financial level. One that has those numpties coughing up £60 a month in TV subs grasping how much their part has been in this lunacy.

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Posted (edited)

Emi on his way back to Colney

 

D33A52D8-5F66-436B-809F-BD273F34832D.png

Edited by Van wink
Oops..

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4 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Are you assuming its Emi because of how tall he is 😂

It was the length of the legs😀

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12 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

None of the solutions is fair and only one of the solutions looks reasonably safe from succesful legal action. Namely if the government copied France and ordered, force majeure, that football could not restart until the late summer or autumn.

The likelihood of that increased today but I still think this government will try very hard to find reasons to agree to a restart. Another major league cancelling, and Uefa realising its plans are shot to pieces, might do the trick.

A while back (it seems like an age but probably only four weeks) I did outline a possible scenario. That the major leagues would ignore Uefa and agree to cancel, with the aim of starting the 2020-21 season early in September. So the transfer window could be synchronised continent-wide to run from July 1 to August 31.

The EFL clubs, many on the verge of collapse, could then quickly go into a kind of financial hibernation and the various English football bodies, the TV companies and the government could work on a rescue plan so there was a pyramid left to start again.

As to whether there would be promotion and relegation, as above there isn't a fair and legally-proof solution. I am sure any attempt to relegate teams, no matter what the attempt to justify that, would be hit with massive legal actions.

So I think there may be renewed interest in the Chilean solution, of promoting those from the automatic slots but not relegating. It is not ideal, or legally-proofed. Nothing is. But has the advantages of meaning this season will not have been a complete waste. And the TV companies would be happy with four extra rounds of EPL matches.

Didn't realise that was happening in Chile- I know it was floated in Germany. 

In some ways it makes a lot of sense and the extra games could potentially convince TV companies to not ask for their money back if those left this season never get played.

My gut feeling is the Premier League will find a way to play out their remaining games behind closed doors but what the Football League do will probably have to drive the promotion/relegation conversation.

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Latest from the press 

Health fears & complaints about the Premier League’s sporting integrity

Project Restart is being attacked on two main fronts.

The first centres on the health concerns of restarting the Premier League and exposing players to Covid-19.

On Talksport on Tuesday, Simon Jordan suggested that football columnists may soon have to delve into the world of corporate manslaughter if Project Restart goes ahead.

Those fears are also borne out in the Times on Wednesday, as it’s becoming apparent that some Premier League footballers don’t want to return to action. Readers are told:

Clubs have been told by players that they are scared about rushing back before it is safe to do so and contracting the virus and passing it to their families. 

As one club insider said yesterday it would prove difficult to convince players to engage in a contact sport when everyone else is being ordered to stay two metres apart.

It’s also worth noting that scientists, writing in The Lancet, have warned professional footballers and elite athletes that the risks posed by contracting Covid-19 may be greatly increased by returning to sport.

On a separate track, some Premier League clubs could rebel against Project Restart amid claims that it lacks sporting integrity.

The central issue here is the use of neutral venues to stage certain Premier League fixtures.

Put another way, there’s a growing likelihood that if the 2019-20 Premier League season does resume, not all clubs will be allowed to play at their home grounds.

The Times today suggest that Wembley Stadium, St George’s Park and Twickenham could all be used as neutral venues.

However, this issue is causing angst and anger amongst some Premier League clubs. The Times report:

The Times has learnt that several top-flight teams will argue that it is wrong to play at all while the country is in the grip of the coronavirus crisis, and that the sporting integrity of the competition could be undermined by teams losing home advantage.

The Premier League has made it clear that only approved stadiums can be used, but some say that would be “unacceptable” as it would damage the integrity of the competition with some clubs gaining an advantage.

 

Testing & concerns around closed doors games

There are two other arguments presented in the press on Wednesday for why Project Restart should be scrapped.

As previously mentioned, some in the media – mainly the tabloids – are flagging up the optics problem of Premier League footballers receiving regular Covid-19 tests while many front-line workers can’t access these same tests.

Secondly, as puffed up in the Mirror, there’s a concern that football fans could congregate outside grounds if matches are played behind closed doors.

Premier League timetable for Project Restart

So what’s going to happen?

This Friday, May 1, all 20 Premier League clubs will discuss the plans for Project Restart, which aims to resume football on June 8.

 

Ending 2019-20 Premier League season could see 4 clubs go bust

On Tuesday, the French Prime Minister confirmed that there will be no top flight football in the country until September.

That’s effectively ended the 2019-20 Ligue 1 season.

Accordingly, France have joined Belgium and Holland in having had their domestic seasons ended by government decisions.

So should the Premier League follow suit?

Possibly, but the economic implications of ending the 2019-20 Premier League season cannot simply be swept under the rug.

Let’s be clear: if the 2019-20 Premier League doesn’t finish, the financial consequences for some will be truly devastating.

In the Guardian, readers are told:

Discussions over what to do next will be shaped by the knowledge that Premier League clubs stand to lose up to £1.137bn collectively if the season does not finish and they have to pay back broadcasting money. 

One executive said clubs could each lose up to £40m if there are no games on television and around £10m if games take place without supporters.

The Independent expand those fears, suggesting Premier League clubs could go bust if the season ends:

Much of that has obviously been influenced by broadcasting contracts, but there is more to it. There is also a fear that up to four Premier League clubs could go into administration if the postponement goes on longer than the summer.

There are admittedly elements of this crisis that are a genuine existential threat to the game.

Could one of those teams be Burnley?

At the start of the month, Burnley indicated that they stand to lose £50m if the Premier League doesn’t restart.

 

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Thanks JF

Still not seen anywhere what would happen if a team gets it and cannot continue to fulfil their matches, do we.go lockdown/postponement again.

In every business at the moment there is suffering and there will be companies that go out of business, it's not great but reality.

The only safe way to bring football back is to give it time and continue with the social distancing across every person/industry/sector and see where we are at after the summer.

Time is the key to beating this virus, not forcing people in to rushing back.

I read a lot on twitter about people asking what football cant return when manufacturing and fishing etc is; it's simple, those sectors are needed to feed the people, football isn't a need, it's a nice to have.

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16 minutes ago, JF said:

Much of that has obviously been influenced by broadcasting contracts, but there is more to it. There is also a fear that up to four Premier League clubs could go into administration if the postponement goes on longer than the summer.

There are admittedly elements of this crisis that are a genuine existential threat to the game.

Could one of those teams be Burnley?

At the start of the month, Burnley indicated that they stand to lose £50m if the Premier League doesn’t restart.

Unfortunately I'd imagine the more 'self-funding' clubs such as Burnley and us are the ones that may be in danger.

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26 minutes ago, king canary said:

Didn't realise that was happening in Chile- I know it was floated in Germany. 

In some ways it makes a lot of sense and the extra games could potentially convince TV companies to not ask for their money back if those left this season never get played.

My gut feeling is the Premier League will find a way to play out their remaining games behind closed doors but what the Football League do will probably have to drive the promotion/relegation conversation.

I should have been clearer. This happened in the 2018-19 season in Chile because of anti-government riots. Like Liverpool, the top side were well clear, with six matches to go, and were awarded the title, and places for the continental cup competitions were awarded. No-one was relegated and the top two from the second tier (I think from the one automatic place and the best of those in the play-off zone) were promoted. So for the next season the top division was increased from 16 clubs to 18.

While acknowledging that it has its drawbacks as well as advantages it would work either if the season gets cancelled for the whole of the pyramid or if the Premier League is played to a finish but the rest of the pyramid does not. I cannot see Leagues One and Two being completed and there must be a serious doubt over the Championship.

More than that, unless there is a decision pretty soon (and judging by the way the EPL has kept on kicking the can down the road there won't be) there will not be a pyramid left to complete, because clubs below the Premier League are not going to be able to hold out financially, with money going out and none coming in.

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4 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I should have been clearer. This happened in the 2018-19 season in Chile because of anti-government riots. Like Liverpool, the top side were well clear, with six matches to go, and were awarded the title, and places for the continental cup competitions were awarded. No-one was relegated and the top two from the second tier (I think from the one automatic place and the best of those in the play-off zone) were promoted. So for the next season the top division was increased from 16 clubs to 18.

While acknowledging that it has its drawbacks as well as advantages it would work either if the season gets cancelled for the whole of the pyramid or if the Premier League is played to a finish but the rest of the pyramid does not. I cannot see Leagues One and Two being completed and there must be a serious doubt over the Championship.

More than that, unless there is a decision pretty soon (and judging by the way the EPL has kept on kicking the can down the road there won't be) there will not be a pyramid left to complete, because clubs below the Premier League are not going to be able to hold out financially, with money going out and none coming in.

It is quite interesting in some ways- I've long thought football needed some form of financial apocalypse to help it get back to reality. I always thought it would come with a European Super League rather than something like this though. It isn't a popular opinion but I've believed for a while that England has more professional clubs that it can sustain realistically and it may actually be good for some of them to go bust and start again at semi-pro level.

You'd like to think in an ideal world it would convince clubs that sensible financial caps and restrictions are in the best interest of the sport. However I'm getting increasingly convinced that all we'll see is those with the billionaire backers seeing this crisis through well and those without falling by the wayside.

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If our government ( and the EPL ) are going by science how can they ignore FIFAS medical comments and now this ?

Sports should return from the "bottom-up not the top-down" when the coronavirus lockdown lifts, according to a public health adviser to the World Health Organization.

Dr Brian McCloskey, former public health director for London 2012, said community sport could be the first type of sport to return.

That comes after:

  • The chief doctor at football's world governing body Fifa warned against restartingthe interrupted 2019-20 campaign
  • France's top two football divisions were ended when Prime Minister Edouard Philippe banned all sporting events until September
  • Tokyo 2020 President Yoshiro Mori said the Games would be "scrapped" if they could not go ahead in their new dates starting in July 2021

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

I should have been clearer. This happened in the 2018-19 season in Chile because of anti-government riots. Like Liverpool, the top side were well clear, with six matches to go, and were awarded the title, and places for the continental cup competitions were awarded. No-one was relegated and the top two from the second tier (I think from the one automatic place and the best of those in the play-off zone) were promoted. So for the next season the top division was increased from 16 clubs to 18.

While acknowledging that it has its drawbacks as well as advantages it would work either if the season gets cancelled for the whole of the pyramid or if the Premier League is played to a finish but the rest of the pyramid does not. I cannot see Leagues One and Two being completed and there must be a serious doubt over the Championship.

More than that, unless there is a decision pretty soon (and judging by the way the EPL has kept on kicking the can down the road there won't be) there will not be a pyramid left to complete, because clubs below the Premier League are not going to be able to hold out financially, with money going out and none coming in.

This on the face of it would appear to be the least contentious option other than how do you decide on the two from the Championship. Its still not really fair in my view (why should WBA and Leeds go up when Fulham can catch them) but I suppose it will limit the number of genuinely aggrieved clubs and potentially offer sky a few extra matches next season in return for the lost games this season.

Apparently the ultimate decision here on promotion and relegation comes down to the FA Council. It appears that the leagues can make decisions amongst themselves but it all needs to be ratified by the FA Council and a very informative post on another board suggests that any decision to not have relegation needs to come from the FA Council not the clubs.

The French proposal is a potentially worrying precedent but then Holland has voided (so also a precedent) and I would speculate that the financial consequences of relegation from the French top division are maybe not quite as severe and potentially future changing as relegation from the premier league is for an English club like us. 

On the salaries and the finances I entirely agree with above posts. I hope this is the sort of reality check that gets football back into a saner place. A decision need to be made so appropriate adjustments can be negotiated.

 

 

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PS having seen the latest suggestions that venues in London, St Georges Park or Manchester would be used for these "behind closed doors" games how is that fair?

Every single game becomes an away game for us. Players no doubt in a hotel for a month. Whereas London or Manchester based players presumably in their own homes, using their own training grounds etc.

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

I should have been clearer. This happened in the 2018-19 season in Chile because of anti-government riots. Like Liverpool, the top side were well clear, with six matches to go, and were awarded the title, and places for the continental cup competitions were awarded. No-one was relegated and the top two from the second tier (I think from the one automatic place and the best of those in the play-off zone) were promoted. So for the next season the top division was increased from 16 clubs to 18.

While acknowledging that it has its drawbacks as well as advantages it would work either if the season gets cancelled for the whole of the pyramid or if the Premier League is played to a finish but the rest of the pyramid does not. I cannot see Leagues One and Two being completed and there must be a serious doubt over the Championship.

More than that, unless there is a decision pretty soon (and judging by the way the EPL has kept on kicking the can down the road there won't be) there will not be a pyramid left to complete, because clubs below the Premier League are not going to be able to hold out financially, with money going out and none coming in.

Just to emphasise this point, it is not just whether the TV money filters down to these clubs but whether even if it does it will happen in time. Relevant quotes from Robbie Cowling, the Colchester owner (the man Bowkett and McNally mistakenly thought they could browbeat!) on why they are releasing players now whose contracts run out on June 30:

‘Just about every club will need to be following suit,’ Cowling said ‘There are other clubs in a worse state than us. We're just the first to make this sort of announcement. The probability that we're going to be playing in mid-June is unlikely and we had a duty to those players to let them know. It's unfair to ask those players to play if the season does resume. What if they then get injured and it jeopardises their chance of getting a job elsewhere. Why should they put their livelihoods on the line? To be fair, they took it really well. They understand. They made it easier for me.’

Cowling also believes that many of the hundreds of players out of contract in the summer will struggle to find new employment for the 2020-21 campaign. He told the BBC: ‘The estimate is that there are going to be 800 players out of contract in June and I can't see many getting them renewed at this level.

‘There won't be the money around to bring players in. And all the other clubs I've talked to are keen to do that. There has to be a more realistic attitude to budgets and finances. A lot now depends on how long this goes on. If we do resume, it would be behind closed doors and it now looks like that might carry on next season too.

‘We've now got nothing coming into the club, apart from any payments we might get from the EFL. That's all driven by TV money and now it's not 100% certain we'll get that money.’

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Bad news for league one and two clubs.

It is slowly creeping up the pyramid and I would hazzard a guess that many Championship Owners are now getting very nervous. Their clubs are getting nothing and their businesses that support their ownership are severely constrained by the lockdown. It is all coming to a head and one domino will collapse the lot very quickly.

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I agree about your domino analogy. Maybe we are only a couple of weeks away from more stories like this.

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2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Bad news for league one and two clubs.

It is slowly creeping up the pyramid and I would hazzard a guess that many Championship Owners are now getting very nervous. Their clubs are getting nothing and their businesses that support their ownership are severely constrained by the lockdown. It is all coming to a head and one domino will collapse the lot very quickly.

The Championship is probably the most at danger league in some ways. The amount of clubs running with wages over 100% of turnover is mad.

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

It is quite interesting in some ways- I've long thought football needed some form of financial apocalypse to help it get back to reality. I always thought it would come with a European Super League rather than something like this though. It isn't a popular opinion but I've believed for a while that England has more professional clubs that it can sustain realistically and it may actually be good for some of them to go bust and start again at semi-pro level.

I remember one of my old university lecturers, a highly intelligent sociologist and academic that specialises in sport, giving an interview on Sky Sports News where he said very much the same thing about the number of professional clubs. He said there's a market for around 30, although that does seem on the low side considering that all Premier League clubs and some Championship clubs sell out every week with few problems. 

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3 minutes ago, king canary said:

The Championship is probably the most at danger league in some ways. The amount of clubs running with wages over 100% of turnover is mad.

That's why the dirty Leeds lot are desperate to get in to the Premier League.

Overspending to reach the pot of gold and if they don't make it, the wheels come off as many clubs have found over the years.

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3 minutes ago, king canary said:

The Championship is probably the most at danger league in some ways. The amount of clubs running with wages over 100% of turnover is mad.

42% of Sheffield Wednesdays income is match day revenue. I see no way the Championship can start next season behind closed doors. One possible solution would be if there were no relegation from the PL then next seasons parachute money could be distributed down the leagues. It won’t solve the problem but every little helps 

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On the point of too many professional clubs I personally don't think there are too many right now (or if there are it's only a few too many but then how do you stop clubs turning fully professional? The vast majority of the national league is now fully professional for example) but what I actually think is the problem is the outdated system of governance that is in place. 

What I think needs to happen is that each league should be responsible for it's own commercial and TV deals, that way there will be more competition for the rights all the way down the pyramid which means more money for each club. Secondly clubs have to learn to diversify their income streams, no club's existence should be solely reliant on income on one day every two weeks. That is a terrible and outdated business model. Finally financial fair play needs to be a whole lot more stringent, but this again comes down to governance, due to the gulf in finances what affects stevenage is different to what affect Leeds for example which brings it nicely back to the point of English football and an out of date form of governance. 

 

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Quite ironic that Peter Ridsdale today gave the world his three penneth worth about the economic woes of footbal. While waht he said is true, its a bit rich coming from him.

Why does the Champions or Europa League have to be played next season? If they want to ditch anything then just cancel it for a season. Then football can reset it self. It would have a season without distraction of the necessity to finish in the top 4 or you are a failure syndrome.

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1 minute ago, The Walking Man said:

What I think needs to happen is that each league should be responsible for it's own commercial and TV deals, that way there will be more competition for the rights all the way down the pyramid which means more money for each club. Secondly clubs have to learn to diversify their income streams, no club's existence should be solely reliant on income on one day every two weeks. That is a terrible and outdated business model. Finally financial fair play needs to be a whole lot more stringent, but this again comes down to governance, due to the gulf in finances what affects stevenage is different to what affect Leeds for example which brings it nicely back to the point of English football and an out of date form of governance. 
 

In England, each league is responsible for its own commercial and TV deals, assuming you put the Championship, League One and League Two together as the EFL. In other countries, clubs negotiate their own TV deals which creates a huge discrepancy between the big teams and smaller ones.

Also, for clubs in the lower league, which income streams can they exploit? Rochdale and Cheltenham don't have much commercial appeal and it's only natural their income will predominantly come from gate receipts. I doubt they have many external companies prepared to enter into arrangements with them, so what could they realistically do to bring significant funds into the club aside from getting a sugar daddy?

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Just now, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

In England, each league is responsible for its own commercial and TV deals, assuming you put the Championship, League One and League Two together as the EFL. In other countries, clubs negotiate their own TV deals which creates a huge discrepancy between the big teams and smaller ones.

Also, for clubs in the lower league, which income streams can they exploit? Rochdale and Cheltenham don't have much commercial appeal and it's only natural their income will predominantly come from gate receipts. I doubt they have many external companies prepared to enter into arrangements with them, so what could they realistically do to bring significant funds into the club aside from getting a sugar daddy?

You've slightly misunderstood me, I am a fan of the way the Premier League distributes their TV money (i.e. a lot more fairer than La Liga for example) what I meant was for the Championship, League One and League Two to negotiate their own TV deals rather than the Football League as a whole because let's face it £595m over five years for all three leagues is a crap deal. The championship should be getting more than that by themselves. It also allows leagues one and two to pursue a better deal with or without sky. There are plenty of media companies that are looking to get into English football, think Netflix, Apple Disney Amazon want more etc. 

Talking about diversifying income streams more, just off the top of my head, think conferencing, concerts, restaurants, wider shop range. Engage with the community and reap the rewards. Remembers 20/25 years ago when we were struggling to get crowds of 15k? And we went on a spree of community engagement especially targeting the kids and now we are reaping the rewards. Don't get me wrong it isn't done overnight but much more could and should be done. 

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