Cynical posters: against the spirit of football?

[Libbra Lives in Dubai 0]

I''m a little surpised by some of the views left on this message board by some supposed ''fans''.  What exactly do you get out of posting messages such as "we are crap" if you truly are a NCFC fan?  Self pity? The fact remains that our team does have a number of problems and some of you (including myself) may feel that a change of management is a necessity for the club to progress.  Having said this, whining about it to other supporters on a message board is not going to achieve anything.  A more productive use of your energies would be to look towards rebuilding for next season especially with the encouraging new signings that we have made.  You''re right that we stand little chance of making the play-offs but ''being a realist'', as so many of you cynics band around, is not the attraction for most people.  Dreaming of what could be and getting behind your team through thick and thin is, in my humble opinion, what football is all about and the source of our passion. 

This said you guys are entitled to your opinions - but I just thought I''d offer mine in response to some of them.  Anyone feel differently?

 

[king johnbond 0]

while i agree to some extent nic, when we are rubbish and playing crap it has to be said. and lets face it we are at this moment we are not very good.

[USAcanary 0]

[quote user="Nic Cutts"]

I''m a little surpised by some of the views left on this message board by some supposed ''fans''.  What exactly do you get out of posting messages such as "we are crap" if you truly are a NCFC fan?  Self pity? The fact remains that our team does have a number of problems and some of you (including myself) may feel that a change of management is a necessity for the club to progress.  Having said this, whining about it to other supporters on a message board is not going to achieve anything.  A more productive use of your energies would be to look towards rebuilding for next season especially with the encouraging new signings that we have made.  You''re right that we stand little chance of making the play-offs but ''being a realist'', as so many of you cynics band around, is not the attraction for most people.  Dreaming of what could be and getting behind your team through thick and thin is, in my humble opinion, what football is all about and the source of our passion. 

This said you guys are entitled to your opinions - but I just thought I''d offer mine in response to some of them.  Anyone feel differently?

 

[/quote]

Nic, I have a great idea.

You post about all the positives at the club at the moment and I will post about all the negatives. That makes things nicely balanced

Except I am probably going to be overworked and you will be twiddling thumbs.

Maybe you should write to the Pinkun and tell them to only print positive stories.

Only publish match reports on games when we win for fear of being negative.

All this KTF attitude has taken us to performances like last night where we were humiliated.

The reason I want Worthy OUT is because I CARE about Norwich City.

 

 

[beelsie 0]

 YC!! I only write about what I see as the faults within our team, or indeed what I feel are the attributes of individual players within the team, and what are the positive aspects of the type of play, and most importantly how is the body language reflecting what is happening out there.  Personally I would get a great deal of satisfaction from being able to praise our spirited running off  the ball, and how well we defend, also how well we read the game and are defensively never caught on the hop. Also how responsive and confident Green is when dominating the six yard box when he is awake, and how we all know our defensive patterns and keep our shape in defence. I believe it is only when the players are ready to address the negative aspects of our game, can we overcome them, the result of that happening would give me much pleasure, whereupon I would wax lyrical.

Regarding the rebuilding of our team to become a fighting force once again, I would only attempt such rash reasoning if I could at some stage understand the logic that is part of our board, apart from keeping a tight reign on expenditure and controling the manager''s role in all this.  I am a natural cynic but would be happy to be a changed man were I convinced that the powers at the club were reading a bible of logic.  Also 10,000 dollar question who under those conditions would be up for managing NCFC were he to be sacked under the present arrangements.  Your turn YC my friend to make me happy.

[Making Plans 936]

[quote user="Nic Cutts"]

Dreaming of what could be and getting behind your team through thick and thin is, in my humble opinion, what football is all about and the source of our passion. 

[/quote]

Dream on Nic Cutts - I''m having nightmares.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="beelsie"]

 YC!! I only write about what I see as the faults within our team, or indeed what I feel are the attributes of individual players within the team, and what are the positive aspects of the type of play, and most importantly how is the body language reflecting what is happening out there.  Personally I would get a great deal of satisfaction from being able to praise our spirited running off  the ball, and how well we defend, also how well we read the game and are defensively never caught on the hop. Also how responsive and confident Green is when dominating the six yard box when he is awake, and how we all know our defensive patterns and keep our shape in defence. I believe it is only when the players are ready to address the negative aspects of our game, can we overcome them, the result of that happening would give me much pleasure, whereupon I would wax lyrical.

Regarding the rebuilding of our team to become a fighting force once again, I would only attempt such rash reasoning if I could at some stage understand the logic that is part of our board, apart from keeping a tight reign on expenditure and controling the manager''s role in all this.  I am a natural cynic but would be happy to be a changed man were I convinced that the powers at the club were reading a bible of logic.  Also 10,000 dollar question who under those conditions would be up for managing NCFC were he to be sacked under the present arrangements.  Your turn YC my friend to make me happy.

[/quote]

mike newell, phil parkinson?!?! and thats looking at local clubs - burley went to scum from colchester?

[YankeeCanary 0]

beelsie, you have the advantage over me in that you are seeing the games. Forgive me if I currently say that I''m glad I''m not. I know that, in earlier posts, your focus has been on the need for proper effort and skills from the players and that, if we were to bring three or four quality individuals in in the key areas where we are weak, you would expect this to get us back on track without the need to replace the manager. On this thread you are being critical of the Board because you feel they are placing restrictions on the manager.

Here''s my take on the situation, beelsie, in terms of why Norwich City have truly missed an opportunity to a) stay in the Premiership ( when it was there to be had ) and b) at least ensure they took the necessary steps, following relegation, to be prepared for a robust effort to be at the front end of the pack this season to give themselves a good chance of a quick return.

It was clear to most fans that, even during our promotion year ( and certainly since then ) Norwich were not a club known for putting in solid effort throughout most games. Many times we had to rely on second half effort to scrape something out of the game. Far too many times that season, and last, the Norwich team were found to be backing up defensively. In other words, a much different approach than Reading appear to be taking as they go about winning the Championship, and it is not as if the Reading team is filled with players of Premiership quality. Now, most of us felt that Fleming ( good servant that he has been ) was not up to the job in the Premiership. Too old, too slow. It does not take too much imagination to understand other players would have been looking to Fleming and Worthington on how best to deal with Premiership forwards.....that was where the experience was. So everyone became defensive. It was almost criminal that we did not prepare ourselves to deal with this, and consequently ended up conceeding 77 goals.

Now beelsie, to the thrust of your view. If our sad effort in the Premiership ( ill prepared and too defensive ) was down to the Board then there is an argument that could be made as to why make the record signing of Ashton in January 2005 when, coming into that month, we were in the relegation zone with 15 points. Ashton was doing well with Crewe but most Premiership teams felt that he would be a risk at the money being sought by his club. Yet we took that risk ( and it''s turned out well financially ). Why not take the risk sooner ( in August ) with two or three key players to shore up the most critical areas. We could have spent up to three million+ as we proved by spending later. We would not have gotten stars but there are many teams in the premiership today shoring themselves up acquiring players without breaking the bank. Some will say we did that. However look at Worthy''s choices and what he did with them. The Scandinavians, he either recruited and did not play, or played them out of position in a team that was already weak to begin with. Surely that was a recipe for trouble that even a non-gifted manager could have figured out. I doubt that those choices and decisions were made by the Board. That was down to Worthington. We got our money back on Jonson anyway.

The heart of your question is which manager could we acquire that could do a much better job ( with tight financial constraints ) You are assuming the Board still has Worthington on a tight leash financially. Possibly the Earnshaw acquisition challenges that. I honestly believe that you are overstating the difficulty that you feel that the Board is placing on Worthington. I think managers like Alan Pardew, Paul Jewell, Mark Hughes etc had equally tough tasks but have managed to create a team environment that was prepared to have a go at winning as opposed to playing not to lose. Look at the players that Worthington has had his hands on at Norwich. Players such as Dean Ashton, Peter Crouch, Thomas Helveg, Dean Marney, David Bentley, Darren Huckerby ( forget his defensive weakness for a moment ), Callum Davenport among others. Despite the positives that many can cite ( I''m sure ), such players EVENTUALLY fail to shine under the Worthy''s style of management. There ias no reason to believe, in my opinion, that that pattern will change in the future.

beelsie, combining our defensive approach, over the past two or three years, with the fact that it is difficult for quality players to shine over time, then I believe an even less than astute Board would have to come to the conclusion that no one man is better than the best interests of the club. Worthy is truly the most important change that we can make at this juncture to give ourselves a chance of a fresh start, a fresh approach. Who to bring in? I say look at the BEST three or four Premiership candidates who are number two men at their clubs, along with two or three of the best current managers from the lower divisions, make a decision on the best candidate and cross your fingers. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, the players still have to produce the goods on match day, but the off-field influence has to be as POSITIVE as it can be to so as to augment rather than detract from those performancesa.

[Fat Barman 0]

Paul Rankin wrote:

mike newell, phil parkinson?!?! and thats looking at local clubs - burley went to scum from colchester?

Yes Paul, and just how attractive a move did that look at the time? Why would Newell trade from one Champ club to another? Parkinson could also be managing in the Champ next season, without having to uproot his family, where''s the incentive?You seem to think we just snap our fingers to entice a new manager - unfortunately, as with enticing players to come to Norwich, we''re not as attractive a proposition as many seem to think. Even less so for a manager, if he''s replacing somebody who''s been hounded out by the fans, eh?

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

beelsie, you have the advantage over me in that you are seeing the games. Forgive me if I currently say that I''m glad I''m not. I know that, in earlier posts, your focus has been on the need for proper effort and skills from the players and that, if we were to bring three or four quality individuals in in the key areas where we are weak, you would expect this to get us back on track without the need to replace the manager. On this thread you are being critical of the Board because you feel they are placing restrictions on the manager.

Here''s my take on the situation, beelsie, in terms of why Norwich City have truly missed an opportunity to a) stay in the Premiership ( when it was there to be had ) and b) at least ensure they took the necessary steps, following relegation, to be prepared for a robust effort to be at the front end of the pack this season to give themselves a good chance of a quick return.

It was clear to most fans that, even during our promotion year ( and certainly since then ) Norwich were not a club known for putting in solid effort throughout most games. Many times we had to rely on second half effort to scrape something out of the game. Far too many times that season, and last, the Norwich team were found to be backing up defensively. In other words, a much different approach than Reading appear to be taking as they go about winning the Championship, and it is not as if the Reading team is filled with players of Premiership quality. Now, most of us felt that Fleming ( good servant that he has been ) was not up to the job in the Premiership. Too old, too slow. It does not take too much imagination to understand other players would have been looking to Fleming and Worthington on how best to deal with Premiership forwards.....that was where the experience was. So everyone became defensive. It was almost criminal that we did not prepare ourselves to deal with this, and consequently ended up conceeding 77 goals.

Now beelsie, to the thrust of your view. If our sad effort in the Premiership ( ill prepared and too defensive ) was down to the Board then there is an argument that could be made as to why make the record signing of Ashton in January 2005 when, coming into that month, we were in the relegation zone with 15 points. Ashton was doing well with Crewe but most Premiership teams felt that he would be a risk at the money being sought by his club. Yet we took that risk ( and it''s turned out well financially ). Why not take the risk sooner ( in August ) with two or three key players to shore up the most critical areas. We could have spent up to three million+ as we proved by spending later. We would not have gotten stars but there are many teams in the premiership today shoring themselves up acquiring players without breaking the bank. Some will say we did that. However look at Worthy''s choices and what he did with them. The Scandinavians, he either recruited and did not play, or played them out of position in a team that was already weak to begin with. Surely that was a recipe for trouble that even a non-gifted manager could have figured out. I doubt that those choices and decisions were made by the Board. That was down to Worthington. We got our money back on Jonson anyway.

The heart of your question is which manager could we acquire that could do a much better job ( with tight financial constraints ) You are assuming the Board still has Worthington on a tight leash financially. Possibly the Earnshaw acquisition challenges that. I honestly believe that you are overstating the difficulty that you feel that the Board is placing on Worthington. I think managers like Alan Pardew, Paul Jewell, Mark Hughes etc had equally tough tasks but have managed to create a team environment that was prepared to have a go at winning as opposed to playing not to lose. Look at the players that Worthington has had his hands on at Norwich. Players such as Dean Ashton, Peter Crouch, Thomas Helveg, Dean Marney, David Bentley, Darren Huckerby ( forget his defensive weakness for a moment ), Callum Davenport among others. Despite the positives that many can cite ( I''m sure ), such players EVENTUALLY fail to shine under the Worthy''s style of management. There ias no reason to believe, in my opinion, that that pattern will change in the future.

beelsie, combining our defensive approach, over the past two or three years, with the fact that it is difficult for quality players to shine over time, then I believe an even less than astute Board would have to come to the conclusion that no one man is better than the best interests of the club. Worthy is truly the most important change that we can make at this juncture to give ourselves a chance of a fresh start, a fresh approach. Who to bring in? I say look at the BEST three or four Premiership candidates who are number two men at their clubs, along with two or three of the best current managers from the lower divisions, make a decision on the best candidate and cross your fingers. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, the players still have to produce the goods on match day, but the off-field influence has to be as POSITIVE as it can be to so as to augment rather than detract from those performancesa.

[/quote]

And dont dare mention Mick Mccarthy - He is another Megson/Worthy type manager whom did not even listen to his scouts when they told him not to sign Andy (1 goal) gray.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="Fat Barman"]Paul Rankin wrote:

mike newell, phil parkinson?!?! and thats looking at local clubs - burley went to scum from colchester?

Yes Paul, and just how attractive a move did that look at the time? Why would Newell trade from one Champ club to another? Parkinson could also be managing in the Champ next season, without having to uproot his family, where''s the incentive?

You seem to think we just snap our fingers to entice a new manager - unfortunately, as with enticing players to come to Norwich, we''re not as attractive a proposition as many seem to think. Even less so for a manager, if he''s replacing somebody who''s been hounded out by the fans, eh?
[/quote]

Pardon?!?!?!  we get 25,000 fans in a great stadium - why would he not want to move to norwich!!! 

We get the highest attendances in the football league!!  And there are not many other reasons for a manager to be sacked apart from the one you have quoted and not getting on with the chairman.

We still have part of a war chest for him to spend, we are underacheiving and we have potential that is not being tapped by Decermber''s Manager of the month.

I beleive Newell would come the moment Luton cant make the play-offs and Parkinson at the end of the season.  And I cant even be bothered to look further afield.  Suffice to say I would stick Dave Williams in temporary charge untill the end of the season at worst.

[Libbra Lives in Dubai 0]

USA Canary:  You best puts on your specs mate because nowhere in my post does it mention the word ''positive''.  It says ''productive'' which is also a long word beginning with p so perhaps Im being a little harsh.  I have no doubt that you care about NCFC as we all do.  My point is not to avoid  all negative comments but to think twice about how useful they are.  If there is a purpose to them or a suggestion that arises from them then cool - otherwise its just complaining and pointing fingers as is the fancy of many British tabloid journalists.  Constructive criticism, I appreciate, is possibly not a national characteristic over in the US so perhaps that explains your sarcastic and somewhat defensive reply to a post you (and others) seem to have taken so personally.

[beelsie 0]

YC thanks for all that, I like the content and drift of most of your reasoning, the first important point you make in my opinion, lies in the third para,  about the lack of effort in most of our games, this is so, so, blatant it must have been noticed by most of the board members, not all of them are catering staff, the input from the players was woeful.  It was made more obvious by the fact that there were three games where our team played their opponents almost off the park, there was a spark in those games that for most of the season, was not apparent.  You must bear with me, YC for I am trying to fathom the boards reasoning when,it to me, seems that the board have not approached the manager at or on several of these woeful occasions, and asked for some reasoned explanation about what was happening.

 If it were me on the board I would want some answers, as i''m sure you and many other contributors to this debate would do.  There was the lengthening of Worthies contract all be it a rolling one, this, if I had drawn it up, would have built in conditions that were fair and performance related but it would have favoured the club whereby, Worthies services could be dispensed with quickly should he and his team not come up with the goods. These thoughts in my mind, says that the board have agreed conclusively that their manager is all that they want him to be; that they are prepared to tolerate his obvious bad managerial mistakes, along with what seems to me to be an over tolerant attitude with non triers, as long as he learns and improves in a satisfactory manner.  Not the way I would run my ship but it is the way our board seems to work, in my opinion too little to late.

Under this hierarchy the defensive approach, will not change, no one at the helm will say to the coaching staff, I demand to see in place a system that the supporters can see a more drilled defensive group working like a team that has in their grasp the basics needed to attack and defend in a fluid movement moving as a team and a group each one knowing what their job is.  Also a goal keeper who is awake enough the whole 90 minutes and takes control of his area in an efficient manner, calling out instructions to help marshall his defensive players, and last but not least be able to catch a ball in safe hands and roll out a pass to a prepared and waiting members of the mid-field either in old terms left/or right half so as not to allow our central defenders to be exposed.

There is much more I agree with especially that the off-field influence needs to be more positive; but this I believe I have dealt with in my reference to the board earlier, they in my opinion have more to do with the negative approach than many would believe.

No offence to the poster of this subject .   I was not aware that I refered to your input directly, I was concerned to hear YC''s views on it because generally speaking he has a mature and constructive approach to such an in depth and interesting debate and is not likely to feel slighted by an opposing opinion enough to take it personally. Negative or positive to me is irrelevant both turn up regularly in any debate.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="beelsie"]

YC thanks for all that, I like the content and drift of most of your reasoning, the first important point you make in my opinion, lies in the third para,  about the lack of effort in most of our games, this is so, so, blatant it must have been noticed by most of the board members, not all of them are catering staff, the input from the players was woeful.  It was made more obvious by the fact that there were three games where our team played their opponents almost off the park, there was a spark in those games that for most of the season, was not apparent.  You must bear with me, YC for I am trying to fathom the boards reasoning when,it to me, seems that the board have not approached the manager at or on several of these woeful occasions, and asked for some reasoned explanation about what was happening.

 If it were me on the board I would want some answers, as i''m sure you and many other contributors to this debate would do.  There was the lengthening of Worthies contract all be it a rolling one, this, if I had drawn it up, would have built in conditions that were fair and performance related but it would have favoured the club whereby, Worthies services could be dispensed with quickly should he and his team not come up with the goods. These thoughts in my mind, says that the board have agreed conclusively that their manager is all that they want him to be; that they are prepared to tolerate his obvious bad managerial mistakes, along with what seems to me to be an over tolerant attitude with non triers, as long as he learns and improves in a satisfactory manner.  Not the way I would run my ship but it is the way our board seems to work, in my opinion too little to late.

Under this hierarchy the defensive approach, will not change, no one at the helm will say to the coaching staff, I demand to see in place a system that the supporters can see a more drilled defensive group working like a team that has in their grasp the basics needed to attack and defend in a fluid movement moving as a team and a group each one knowing what their job is.  Also a goal keeper who is awake enough the whole 90 minutes and takes control of his area in an efficient manner, calling out instructions to help marshall his defensive players, and last but not least be able to catch a ball in safe hands and roll out a pass to a prepared and waiting members of the mid-field either in old terms left/or right half so as not to allow our central defenders to be exposed.

There is much more I agree with especially that the off-field influence needs to be more positive; but this I believe I have dealt with in my reference to the board earlier, they in my opinion have more to do with the negative approach than many would believe.

No offence to the poster of this subject .   I was not aware that I refered to your input directly, I was concerned to hear YC''s views on it because generally speaking he has a mature and constructive approach to such an in depth and interesting debate and is not likely to feel slighted by an opposing opinion enough to take it personally. Negative or positive to me is irrelevant both turn up regularly in any debate.

[/quote]

I must admit beelsie, although I disagree with you about the manager, apart from that you speak a whole lotta sense.  Malcky has not been replaced and a real organiser at the back would make a world of difference.

[Rossi 0]

<SIREN> "Nothing wronger alert"

 

[USAcanary 0]

[quote user="Fat Barman"]Paul Rankin wrote:

mike newell, phil parkinson?!?! and thats looking at local clubs - burley went to scum from colchester?

Yes Paul, and just how attractive a move did that look at the time? Why would Newell trade from one Champ club to another? Parkinson could also be managing in the Champ next season, without having to uproot his family, where''s the incentive?

You seem to think we just snap our fingers to entice a new manager - unfortunately, as with enticing players to come to Norwich, we''re not as attractive a proposition as many seem to think. Even less so for a manager, if he''s replacing somebody who''s been hounded out by the fans, eh?
[/quote]

Hounded out.

No, when Worthy is sacked it will be 100% because of his poor managerial performance.

Fans being upset is just a bi-product of that.

Its a fact that if a bar fails to attract customers it will go out of business.

Do you blame the customers for not turning up?