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Letter from German fans groups..

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I’ve put this in another thread where it’s likely to get lost and missed but I think it deserves its own thread as I believe many posters on here will strongly agree with the points it raises.....

 

 

The question of when and in what form professional football can be played has been the subject of much discussion in the past few days and weeks. In the still partly confusing social situation, a variety of ethical, epidemiological and other arguments were put forward by various actors. In the following, we would like to comment on the topic as a nationwide association of fan scenes and with a view to the DFL general assembly:

The resumption of football, also in the form of ghost games, is not justifiable in the current situation - especially not under the guise of social responsibility. An early continuation of the season would be a mockery of the rest of society and especially those who are really committed to helping the Corona crisis. Professional football has long been sick enough and should remain in quarantine.

We take the clear position that there cannot be a Lex Bundesliga. Football is of great importance in Germany, but it is certainly not systemically important. Restrictions that apply to comparable areas of the sports and entertainment industry must also apply in football. At a time when we are all accepting very massive restrictions on our fundamental rights in the interests of the common good, it is out of the question for the Bundesliga to play. If a lack of capacity in CoVid-19 tests has been reported for weeks, the idea of screening football players for the virus at extremely high frequencies is simply absurd. Not to mention the practice of a soccer game with one-on-one matches, normal training activities in times of assembly prohibitions and a joint pursuit of potential ghost games by fans.


The talk of social responsibility and plans for exclusive test contingents (over 20,000 pieces) for professional football do not go together. We understand that club officials have legal obligations to act in the financial interests of their club. However, in a situation in which the entire society and economy face enormous challenges, it is incomprehensible to us that apparently all concerns are put aside when it comes to keeping the game going as long as possible or starting again.

Obviously, professional football has much deeper problems. A system into which sums of money beyond the imagination of many people have flowed in recent years is on the verge of collapse. The preservation of the structures is completely dependent on the flow of television funds, the clubs only exist in a total dependence on the rights holders.

 

The question of why, despite all the millions, there seems to be no sustainability in professional football, how the structures and clubs can be made more robust and crisis-proof in the future, has at least not been asked by any official. The only communicated goal is to get on with it as quickly as possible, which, however, only guarantees a manageable number of participants with outstanding income. In most cases, we simply regard the talk of tens of thousands of jobs as an excuse to continue securing exorbitant millions of earnings for a few extreme profiteers. This can also be seen in the absolute inactivity of the DFB, with regard to football below the 2nd Bundesliga. The fact that ghost games have much more serious consequences here than in the DFL leagues is ignored. The main thing is that the “premium product” can continue to exist. Here, the DFB not only does not fulfill its role, it also repeatedly shows whose interests it represents.

For years, fans have been demanding reforms for a fairer distribution of TV revenues and criticized the lack of solidarity between large and small clubs. We point out financial excesses, insufficient reserves and the sometimes blackmailing role of player advisors. We have repeatedly demonstrated the risk of dependence on individual large donors using examples such as 1860 Munich, Carl Zeiss Jena and others.

At the latest, it is high time that football officials seriously deal with these points. The current challenge is also an opportunity: associations should understand this crisis as such and fundamentally change the structures of modern football. It's about time!

In this context we demand:

The DFL's current plan to restart gaming in May in the form of ghost games must not be implemented. We do not presume to decide when the ball can roll again. However, in a situation in which football would so decouple from the rest of society, it must not happen.
An objective examination of the current situation must be promoted and a move away from the blind saving of TV money must be made. A possible termination of the season should not be a taboo, unless the social circumstances allow it otherwise. In this case, not only should horror scenarios in the form of impending bankruptcies be outlined, but solutions in the form of promotional loans, extended insolvency periods and other crisis instruments that the rest of the economy is facing should also be discussed.
An upcoming solution must be based on solidarity. There must be no crisis winners and losers among the clubs. The gap between "large" and "small" must not widen further. We expressly include the clubs of the third division and the regional leagues for which ghost games are not an option anyway.
The discussion of fundamental reforms to make professional football more sustainable and economically more crisis-proof must begin now. It must not only be managed by fans and journalists, but is the central task of those responsible for the clubs and associations. Structures and clubs must be brought back on a financially and ideally secure basis. The 50 + 1 rule must remain unaffected.
The phase of a football world completely decoupled from the rest of society must come to an end!“

 

Germany's fan scenes in April 2020

 

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I think I also read UK officials said they can’t see starting until general testing is also available to the general public. Obviously this is also out of self interest given the value of players Germany is clearly substantially ahead of UK and further expanding testing. Closed door games are allowed in Germany. More general testing could be available in a few weeks at least in Germany so closed door games possible. 

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1 minute ago, T said:

I think I also read UK officials said they can’t see starting until general testing is also available to the general public. Obviously this is also out of self interest given the value of players Germany is clearly substantially ahead of UK and further expanding testing. Closed door games are allowed in Germany. More general testing could be available in a few weeks at least in Germany so closed door games possible. 

Why can't we be Germany?....

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7 minutes ago, T said:

I think I also read UK officials said they can’t see starting until general testing is also available to the general public. Obviously this is also out of self interest given the value of players Germany is clearly substantially ahead of UK and further expanding testing. Closed door games are allowed in Germany. More general testing could be available in a few weeks at least in Germany so closed door games possible. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/bundesliga-restart-date-coronavirus-postponement-bayern-munich-a9468401.html

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Great letter, so level headed those Germans.

Interesting because I perceive Germany light years ahead of the UK in terms of testing capability, yet they still see it a waste to test professional footballers. So do I.

I also think it shows lack of social responsibility to even consider resuming the football leagues in the current climate.

Season over.

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I'm glad I read that. It is a more coherent and thought out report than I could possibly have written but is exactly how I feel about football in this country.

Does anyone know about the insurance for footballers. If they should attempt to play behind closed doors, testing would not matter a hoot. The test is only good for that test. It is to tell if you have got it, not that you haven't. 

So if they played a game behind close doors and a player had the virus unbeknown then it could be passed on to virtually everyone there. How could they be insured for that outcome?

Surely the government would have to step in and tell them they cannot do it. They have to meet the self distancing requirements.

Edited by keelansgrandad
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45 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Why can't we be Germany?....

Exactly! Even their fans are more articulate than ours as is their response to Corona, as are their managers, as is.......!!

I won't go on😉

Edited by sonyc
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29 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I'm glad I read that. It is a more coherent and thought out report than I could possibly have written but is exactly how I feel about football in this country.

Does anyone know about the insurance for footballers. If they should attempt to play behind closed doors, testing would not matter a hoot. The test is only good for that test. It is to tell if you have got it, not that you haven't. 

So if they played a game behind close doors and a player had the virus unbeknown then it could be passed on to virtually everyone there. How could they be insured for that outcome?

Surely the government would have to step in and tell them they cannot do it. They have to meet the self distancing requirements.

The German government has effectively said that Kg. Merkel stated something along the lines of "we don't consider the Bundesliga". But perhaps so-called  British 'exceptionalism' will prevail.

Edited by sonyc

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2 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Exactly! Even they're fans are more articulate than ours as is their response to Corona, as are their managers, as is.......!!

I won't go on😉

Vorsprung durch technik!.....

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They've absolutely nailed it, haven't they? This is exactly why the season should be declared void.

One point that really rings true is this one: 

 

1 hour ago, JF said:

Obviously, professional football has much deeper problems. A system into which sums of money beyond the imagination of many people have flowed in recent years is on the verge of collapse. 

Finance in football has got out of control. It's now a multi-billion poumd industry at the top level and it only needed one disaster like this to bring it all crashing down. I've been saying for years that I wanted football to go bust so it can start again with proper measures in place to stop average Premier League players earning more than an entire League Two squad and so forth, and hopefully this whole mess that football is in causes it to be reset somehow.

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I think this sums it up well. FIFA, UEFA and national football bodies should use this time to restructure the game to make it sustainable and fair instead of concentrating their efforts on appeasing the rights holders and the (vast) minority of rich clubs. Football is in danger of alienating society and therefore football fans if they carry on down the path of money, money money, we must finish the season at all costs.........

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Keep saying it and will keep saying it.......salary cap and squad limitations the same for each division in each country, set the limit, help the clubs, level the competition and bring the game back to the fans.

Great read, let’s not forget players might be limited in a playing career but that doesn’t stop them changing career as most normal people do in their working lifetime!

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1 hour ago, JF said:

Thanks yes they are saying locally no crowds until at least after  August  But they are saying that they can Image closed door games before then but nothing confirmed yet. Federal government are saying in principal closed door games are allowed but it will be up to the local states to decide. Shops, schools and factories are gradually set to start opening up next week and in May in Germany. The problem with football is of course is you can’t maintain distance so that will mean testing and socially only acceptable once available to general public. Germany are rapidly expanding testing in the next few weeks so football could be possible in a few weeks.   Always best to read and listen to the original sources if you can rather than second hand reports.  

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46 minutes ago, T said:

Thanks yes they are saying locally no crowds until at least after  August  But they are saying that they can Image closed door games before then but nothing confirmed yet. Federal government are saying in principal closed door games are allowed but it will be up to the local states to decide. Shops, schools and factories are gradually set to start opening up next week and in May in Germany. The problem with football is of course is you can’t maintain distance so that will mean testing and socially only acceptable once available to general public. Germany are rapidly expanding testing in the next few weeks so football could be possible in a few weeks.   Always best to read and listen to the original sources if you can rather than second hand reports.  

Please ignore the above (second hand report). 🤣

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7 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

This is exactly why the season should be declared void.

Except that isn't what they say in their letter.

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40 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

Except that isn't what they say in their letter.

What it says is this

“ . A possible termination of the season should not be a taboo, unless the social circumstances allow it otherwise “

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What a brilliant letter. Oh to be a fly on a wall if this was read out and discussed at a meeting between NCFC board and Executive team and at any meeting between Premier League clubs.

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On 18/04/2020 at 10:09, JF said:

For years, fans have been demanding reforms for a fairer distribution of TV revenues and criticized the lack of solidarity between large and small clubs. We point out financial excesses, insufficient reserves and the sometimes blackmailing role of player advisors. We have repeatedly demonstrated the risk of dependence on individual large donors using examples such as 1860 Munich, Carl Zeiss Jena and others.

At the latest, it is high time that football officials seriously deal with these points. The current challenge is also an opportunity: associations should understand this crisis as such and fundamentally change the structures of modern football. It's about time! 

 

The real problem in this country is that we have in charge of the game the Premier League and the Football Association and the two are not really joined in any meaningful way in terms of how to run the game as a whole.  The PL is a vested interest only interested in itself and the FA still looks not fit for purpose. I am sure there are good people in both organisations, but the institutions themselves do not lead the game enough.  So the FA could take a lead - but they won't and the PL will do anything to keep the money in the game at the top level.

Oh.....and then there is Uefa........and Fifa.......they will live up to their reputations too...............

But whether we like it or not, once the crisis is over, football everywhere will return with most of the money still at the top level - and actually, this is how it should be.  No point in having a system where the top level is not funded well enough.  The issue is simply one of scale. The TV companies are the key to it - it could be that they will not be able to put so much money into the game or maybe just not want to - and that is what will force change in wage structures, combined with rules that make clubs have to live within their means. 

 

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Virtually every club has supporters groups affiliated or associated with the FSA but have i missed a statement issued along the lines of the German one ?

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FAs original focus was upon grass roots football before it sold its soul to the Premier League.

How to organise it. Pool all TV monies. First Cut 4-4-2 to Premier League, All other National Divisions and grass roots football.

All other national Divisions split 50% to Championship as Standard, 5% Parachute monies, 20% League one, 12.5% League two and 12.5% National League all divisions.    

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On 18/04/2020 at 10:09, JF said:

I’ve put this in another thread where it’s likely to get lost and missed but I think it deserves its own thread as I believe many posters on here will strongly agree with the points it raises.....

 

 

The question of when and in what form professional football can be played has been the subject of much discussion in the past few days and weeks. In the still partly confusing social situation, a variety of ethical, epidemiological and other arguments were put forward by various actors. In the following, we would like to comment on the topic as a nationwide association of fan scenes and with a view to the DFL general assembly:

 

 

 

Showbox jiofi.local.html tplinklogin

The resumption of football, also in the form of ghost games, is not justifiable in the current situation - especially not under the guise of social responsibility. An early continuation of the season would be a mockery of the rest of society and especially those who are really committed to helping the Corona crisis. Professional football has long been sick enough and should remain in quarantine.

We take the clear position that there cannot be a Lex Bundesliga. Football is of great importance in Germany, but it is certainly not systemically important. Restrictions that apply to comparable areas of the sports and entertainment industry must also apply in football. At a time when we are all accepting very massive restrictions on our fundamental rights in the interests of the common good, it is out of the question for the Bundesliga to play. If a lack of capacity in CoVid-19 tests has been reported for weeks, the idea of screening football players for the virus at extremely high frequencies is simply absurd. Not to mention the practice of a soccer game with one-on-one matches, normal training activities in times of assembly prohibitions and a joint pursuit of potential ghost games by fans.


The talk of social responsibility and plans for exclusive test contingents (over 20,000 pieces) for professional football do not go together. We understand that club officials have legal obligations to act in the financial interests of their club. However, in a situation in which the entire society and economy face enormous challenges, it is incomprehensible to us that apparently all concerns are put aside when it comes to keeping the game going as long as possible or starting again.

Obviously, professional football has much deeper problems. A system into which sums of money beyond the imagination of many people have flowed in recent years is on the verge of collapse. The preservation of the structures is completely dependent on the flow of television funds, the clubs only exist in a total dependence on the rights holders.

 

The question of why, despite all the millions, there seems to be no sustainability in professional football, how the structures and clubs can be made more robust and crisis-proof in the future, has at least not been asked by any official. The only communicated goal is to get on with it as quickly as possible, which, however, only guarantees a manageable number of participants with outstanding income. In most cases, we simply regard the talk of tens of thousands of jobs as an excuse to continue securing exorbitant millions of earnings for a few extreme profiteers. This can also be seen in the absolute inactivity of the DFB, with regard to football below the 2nd Bundesliga. The fact that ghost games have much more serious consequences here than in the DFL leagues is ignored. The main thing is that the “premium product” can continue to exist. Here, the DFB not only does not fulfill its role, it also repeatedly shows whose interests it represents.

For years, fans have been demanding reforms for a fairer distribution of TV revenues and criticized the lack of solidarity between large and small clubs. We point out financial excesses, insufficient reserves and the sometimes blackmailing role of player advisors. We have repeatedly demonstrated the risk of dependence on individual large donors using examples such as 1860 Munich, Carl Zeiss Jena and others.

At the latest, it is high time that football officials seriously deal with these points. The current challenge is also an opportunity: associations should understand this crisis as such and fundamentally change the structures of modern football. It's about time!

In this context we demand:

The DFL's current plan to restart gaming in May in the form of ghost games must not be implemented. We do not presume to decide when the ball can roll again. However, in a situation in which football would so decouple from the rest of society, it must not happen.
An objective examination of the current situation must be promoted and a move away from the blind saving of TV money must be made. A possible termination of the season should not be a taboo, unless the social circumstances allow it otherwise. In this case, not only should horror scenarios in the form of impending bankruptcies be outlined, but solutions in the form of promotional loans, extended insolvency periods and other crisis instruments that the rest of the economy is facing should also be discussed.
An upcoming solution must be based on solidarity. There must be no crisis winners and losers among the clubs. The gap between "large" and "small" must not widen further. We expressly include the clubs of the third division and the regional leagues for which ghost games are not an option anyway.
The discussion of fundamental reforms to make professional football more sustainable and economically more crisis-proof must begin now. It must not only be managed by fans and journalists, but is the central task of those responsible for the clubs and associations. Structures and clubs must be brought back on a financially and ideally secure basis. The 50 + 1 rule must remain unaffected.
The phase of a football world completely decoupled from the rest of society must come to an end!“

 

Germany's fan scenes in April 2020

 

Obviously this is also out of self interest given the value of players Germany is clearly substantially ahead of UK and further expanding testing. Closed door games are allowed in Germany.

Edited by seluzerkharix

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