Restart

[sgncfc 1,223]

I think the German stance is potentially a precedent as it will end UEFA's effort to play the Europa and CL Finals in August. It also means no new season can start there until at least October, with whatever clubs they have left. It looks likely that Sky will keep paying the money, if only to ensure they have a product when this is all over.

Of course we could still do our own closed doors thing......

[JF 694]

Open letter from German fans groups...

The question of when and in what form professional football can be played has been the subject of much discussion in the past few days and weeks. In the still partly confusing social situation, a variety of ethical, epidemiological and other arguments were put forward by various actors. In the following, we would like to comment on the topic as a nationwide association of fan scenes and with a view to the DFL general assembly:

The resumption of football, also in the form of ghost games, is not justifiable in the current situation - especially not under the guise of social responsibility. An early continuation of the season would be a mockery of the rest of society and especially those who are really committed to helping the Corona crisis. Professional football has long been sick enough and should remain in quarantine.

We take the clear position that there cannot be a Lex Bundesliga. Football is of great importance in Germany, but it is certainly not systemically important. Restrictions that apply to comparable areas of the sports and entertainment industry must also apply in football. At a time when we are all accepting very massive restrictions on our fundamental rights in the interests of the common good, it is out of the question for the Bundesliga to play. If a lack of capacity in CoVid-19 tests has been reported for weeks, the idea of screening football players for the virus at extremely high frequencies is simply absurd. Not to mention the practice of a soccer game with one-on-one matches, normal training activities in times of assembly prohibitions and a joint pursuit of potential ghost games by fans.

The talk of social responsibility and plans for exclusive test contingents (over 20,000 pieces) for professional football do not go together. We understand that club officials have legal obligations to act in the financial interests of their club. However, in a situation in which the entire society and economy face enormous challenges, it is incomprehensible to us that apparently all concerns are put aside when it comes to keeping the game going as long as possible or starting again.

Obviously, professional football has much deeper problems. A system into which sums of money beyond the imagination of many people have flowed in recent years is on the verge of collapse. The preservation of the structures is completely dependent on the flow of television funds, the clubs only exist in a total dependence on the rights holders.

 

The question of why, despite all the millions, there seems to be no sustainability in professional football, how the structures and clubs can be made more robust and crisis-proof in the future, has at least not been asked by any official. The only communicated goal is to get on with it as quickly as possible, which, however, only guarantees a manageable number of participants with outstanding income. In most cases, we simply regard the talk of tens of thousands of jobs as an excuse to continue securing exorbitant millions of earnings for a few extreme profiteers. This can also be seen in the absolute inactivity of the DFB, with regard to football below the 2nd Bundesliga. The fact that ghost games have much more serious consequences here than in the DFL leagues is ignored. The main thing is that the “premium product” can continue to exist. Here, the DFB not only does not fulfill its role, it also repeatedly shows whose interests it represents.

For years, fans have been demanding reforms for a fairer distribution of TV revenues and criticized the lack of solidarity between large and small clubs. We point out financial excesses, insufficient reserves and the sometimes blackmailing role of player advisors. We have repeatedly demonstrated the risk of dependence on individual large donors using examples such as 1860 Munich, Carl Zeiss Jena and others.

At the latest, it is high time that football officials seriously deal with these points. The current challenge is also an opportunity: associations should understand this crisis as such and fundamentally change the structures of modern football. It's about time!

In this context we demand:

The DFL's current plan to restart gaming in May in the form of ghost games must not be implemented. We do not presume to decide when the ball can roll again. However, in a situation in which football would so decouple from the rest of society, it must not happen.
An objective examination of the current situation must be promoted and a move away from the blind saving of TV money must be made. A possible termination of the season should not be a taboo, unless the social circumstances allow it otherwise. In this case, not only should horror scenarios in the form of impending bankruptcies be outlined, but solutions in the form of promotional loans, extended insolvency periods and other crisis instruments that the rest of the economy is facing should also be discussed.
An upcoming solution must be based on solidarity. There must be no crisis winners and losers among the clubs. The gap between "large" and "small" must not widen further. We expressly include the clubs of the third division and the regional leagues for which ghost games are not an option anyway.
The discussion of fundamental reforms to make professional football more sustainable and economically more crisis-proof must begin now. It must not only be managed by fans and journalists, but is the central task of those responsible for the clubs and associations. Structures and clubs must be brought back on a financially and ideally secure basis. The 50 + 1 rule must remain unaffected.
The phase of a football world completely decoupled from the rest of society must come to an end!“

 

Germany's fan scenes in April 2020

[Van wink 2,994]

“The phase of a football world completely decoupled from the rest of society must come to an end!“

I like that...wise words

[JF 694]

1 minute ago, Van wink said:

“The phase of a football world completely decoupled from the rest of society must come to an end!“

I like that...wise words

Seems like if they can restart behind closed doors there will be a lot of opposition to it and rightly so. There can’t be leeway for football whilst locking other industries and society away

[BroadstairsR 2,138]

Could technology provide the answer eventually?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/04/15/fever-surveillance-become-common-cctv/

[baldy09 156]

The technology I believe that will be used is -IF the games are to be played out behind closed doors-clubs might offer personal access  to screening via Website etc to watch games that way they may please a lot of season ticket  holders

Edited April 20, 2020 by baldy09
add additional info to post

[City 2nd 191]

And what doctors and medical crews would be expected to attend these behind closed door matches? One f the reasons, along with policing, that saw the pulling of the plug in the first place, as their important services were required elsewhere.!

[CANARYKING 634]

So Liverpool are at home behind closed doors, they need three points to become champions, how many thousands will be outside the ground?

[JF 694]

13 minutes ago, CANARYKING said:

So Liverpool are at home behind closed doors, they need three points to become champions, how many thousands will be outside the ground?

Exactly. And as has been pointed out many times, ‘behind closed doors’ actually involves 300 or so people actually having to be in attendance. 

[City 2nd 191]

On 17/04/2020 at 12:51, Canary Wundaboy said:

My impression at the moment is that the majority of the population just have bigger things to worry about right now than football. This message board aside, no-one's talking about it at work, Fantasy football is off, people are worried about their families, their jobs, how to pay the bills. Football is usually seen as an escape from the every day but without football people are finding other things to occupy themselves and all this talk about player wages etc is all just coming off as so negative and non-important that it's driving people even further away from their "love of football" as a whole.

Spot on CW. The majority of NCFC supporters are likely furloughed by now, and you are right, the majority will be worrying mostly about their finances and families and rightly so. When you have the likes of Liverpool, Man Utd, Tottenham and a majority of  Prem clubs giving season ticket holders , paying monthly, payment deferrals, and postponing next seasons season ticket renewal windows altogether, I think that speaks volumes and shows huge realism on their part. Unfortunately NCFC haven’t done that automatically, and those that have cancelled their season tickets might well have made the right move. Should NCFC go bust, and that is not beyond the realms of possibility at all, then many of our supporters will become creditors, with little chance of recovering that already laid out.  Football is just a game, we will get over losing it, but losing a family member, that is far far more difficult. Looking after oneself and ones family is far more important, and it is surely a priority for most. And with Boris stating they are unlikely to lift the lockdown, but modify it, I do not see football back  on the calendar for many many months, regardless of what the FA or Eufa  (whose heads are up their a***s) say. Their ridiculous haranguing is nothing short of ridiculous.

[Just Dan 10]

I wonder if further bond schemes might be under consideration after the success of the one to fund the nest.  It seems like it worked well for everyone and was fully subscribed quite quickly.   I think the money raised was £5m.

I think we are far better placed than most clubs.   Could there be as many as 3 clubs above us at the moment holding off administration?  I wouldn't have thought so, but you never know.

Interesting times ahead.

[JF 694]

5 minutes ago, Just Dan said:

I wonder if further bond schemes might be under consideration after the success of the one to fund the nest.  It seems like it worked well for everyone and was fully subscribed quite quickly.   I think the money raised was £5m.

I think we are far better placed than most clubs.   Could there be as many as 3 clubs above us at the moment holding off administration?  I wouldn't have thought so, but you never know.

Interesting times ahead.

Reports today of an unnamed PL team losing £9 million a week at the moment. Don’t know who and how true it is but people on Twitter are saying it’s Bournemouth 

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

1 hour ago, Just Dan said:

I wonder if further bond schemes might be under consideration after the success of the one to fund the nest.  It seems like it worked well for everyone and was fully subscribed quite quickly.   I think the money raised was £5m.

I think we are far better placed than most clubs.   Could there be as many as 3 clubs above us at the moment holding off administration?  I wouldn't have thought so, but you never know.

Interesting times ahead.

It's an interesting thought with more than an element of truth.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,781]

1 hour ago, JF said:

Reports today of an unnamed PL team losing £9 million a week at the moment. Don’t know who and how true it is but people on Twitter are saying it’s Bournemouth 

£9m week? How is that even possible? I'd like to see the breakdown of that figure, as their total expenditure for a year at this rate would be close to £500m, and I doubt it's even close to half that.

(Assuming it's actually Bournemouth)

Edited April 20, 2020 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[JF 694]

1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

£9m week? How is that even possible? I'd like to see the breakdown of that figure, as their total expenditure for a year at this rate would be close to £500m, and I doubt it's even close to half that.

(Assuming it's actually Bournemouth)

yes I’m not convinced it’s Bournemouth as I’ve just looked and apparently the mirror have reported it and this club they have referred to as a PL ‘giant’ saying they are going to have to take out a £100 million bank loan. I’m thinking Spurs 

 

https://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/one-premier-league-club-losing-9-million-a-week-4323202

Edited April 20, 2020 by JF

[nutty nigel 7,509]

6 hours ago, City 2nd said:

Spot on CW. The majority of NCFC supporters are likely furloughed by now, and you are right, the majority will be worrying mostly about their finances and families and rightly so. When you have the likes of Liverpool, Man Utd, Tottenham and a majority of  Prem clubs giving season ticket holders , paying monthly, payment deferrals, and postponing next seasons season ticket renewal windows altogether, I think that speaks volumes and shows huge realism on their part. Unfortunately NCFC haven’t done that automatically, and those that have cancelled their season tickets might well have made the right move. Should NCFC go bust, and that is not beyond the realms of possibility at all, then many of our supporters will become creditors, with little chance of recovering that already laid out.  Football is just a game, we will get over losing it, but losing a family member, that is far far more difficult. Looking after oneself and ones family is far more important, and it is surely a priority for most. And with Boris stating they are unlikely to lift the lockdown, but modify it, I do not see football back  on the calendar for many many months, regardless of what the FA or Eufa  (whose heads are up their a***s) say. Their ridiculous haranguing is nothing short of ridiculous.

I don't get this. Nobody has had to cancel their season tickets. We all have the choice whether to suspend the dd or keep paying. As things stand now I'd much rather keep paying. I would probably find it more difficult to fund larger payments later on. What's wrong with having a choice?

[City 2nd 191]

6 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

I don't get this. Nobody has had to cancel their season tickets. We all have the choice whether to suspend the dd or keep paying. As things stand now I'd much rather keep paying. I would probably find it more difficult to fund larger payments later on. What's wrong with having a choice?

I wouldn’t disagree NN. I’m still paying mine too, but I haven’t been asked too? The club haven’t asked me personally to keep paying. The club have stated if anyone has difficulty in paying, to contact the club. Is that a choice? Millions are going to lose their jobs come the future, this pandemic is going to change the way of life for everyone. I’m lucky in that I’m not furloughed and such matters do not affect me, and yes I’m still paying for my ticket. But when clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd and Spurs take the bull by the horns, and cancel and put on hold the sale of future season tickets which makes up a large proportion of their income, that to me is the right thing to do. What are we, as NCFC supporters paying out for, next season, when NO ONE knows if that season will go ahead. Whilst you and I might be happy to keep paying, many won’t because it will sadly reflect on their income. NCFC surely have some degree of a conscience to take that same step. 

[City 2nd 191]

8 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

£9m week? How is that even possible? I'd like to see the breakdown of that figure, as their total expenditure for a year at this rate would be close to £500m, and I doubt it's even close to half that.

(Assuming it's actually Bournemouth)

Well the EADT are reporting that the current situation is costing Mr Evans 3 million a week down at Portman Road. That’s on top of the debt of 90 million + they already have. They too are offsetting their own losses by selling season tickets for next season which they have no idea if they will play or take part in.

[JF 694]

1 hour ago, City 2nd said:

Well the EADT are reporting that the current situation is costing Mr Evans 3 million a week down at Portman Road. That’s on top of the debt of 90 million + they already have. They too are offsetting their own losses by selling season tickets for next season which they have no idea if they will play or take part in.

It says £3 million not £3 million a week

https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/ipswich-town-coronavirus-financial-impact-1-6614571?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons

Edited April 21, 2020 by JF

[duke63 541]

9 hours ago, JF said:

yes I’m not convinced it’s Bournemouth as I’ve just looked and apparently the mirror have reported it and this club they have referred to as a PL ‘giant’ saying they are going to have to take out a £100 million bank loan. I’m thinking Spurs 

 

https://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/one-premier-league-club-losing-9-million-a-week-4323202

Bear in mind clubs have no money coming it at all at the moment other than season tickets DDs and a few sales the the club shops.

They could easily be losing £9 million per week at this moment in time.

[ricardo 7,347]

2 hours ago, City 2nd said:

I wouldn’t disagree NN. I’m still paying mine too, but I haven’t been asked too? The club haven’t asked me personally to keep paying. The club have stated if anyone has difficulty in paying, to contact the club. Is that a choice? Millions are going to lose their jobs come the future, this pandemic is going to change the way of life for everyone. I’m lucky in that I’m not furloughed and such matters do not affect me, and yes I’m still paying for my ticket. But when clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd and Spurs take the bull by the horns, and cancel and put on hold the sale of future season tickets which makes up a large proportion of their income, that to me is the right thing to do. What are we, as NCFC supporters paying out for, next season, when NO ONE knows if that season will go ahead. Whilst you and I might be happy to keep paying, many won’t because it will sadly reflect on their income. NCFC surely have some degree of a conscience to take that same step. 

Where is the problem here? You can give them a ring and suspend your payment whenever you wish. Why do you expect them to contact you?

[lake district canary 4,531]

Can't see a problem about season ticket buying - if next season doesn't happen your season ticket could easily be transferred to the following season.  Best thing (imo) is buy your season ticket as normal if you can afford it, which will help the club.  I'm not a season ticket holder of course and don't have to find that money, but in sport events and in theatre and the arts generally where tickets have been bought already, the plan is that you transfer the tickets forward to when the events can happen.  That way the institutions can carry on because they have money in to work with that will help them through the difficult time.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

On 14/04/2020 at 11:56, PurpleCanary said:

One aspect of this is how the financial threat that would supposedly force the season to be completed has dissipated. Until a week or so back it was all about Sky et al threatening to demand back £762m  if the remaining matches were not played.

Sky etc started to downplay that, seemingly for two connected reasons. That if it played nice over this season it would strengthen its hand over getting more matches next season. And the unstated fear that its bargaining position would be weaker anyway, since armchair fans would turn to  alternative means of getting to watch live matches.

Now the financial problem being stressed is that clubs will have to reimbuse many millions to season ticket-holders and corporate clients, on the obvious assumption that the only way the season can be finished is behind closed doors, with the only realistic alternative being the season being voided, in which case the clubs would still have to cough up.

One recent estimate put the total EPL clubs would have to pay the TV companies (overseas ones, in effect) at only £150m. the situation is still as clear as very muddy mud, but one prediction would be that Leagues One and Two are voided or frozen sooner or later, and probably sooner, with clubs going into some kind of hibernation to save money.

[ricardo 7,347]

10 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

One recent estimate put the total EPL clubs would have to pay the TV companies (overseas ones, in effect) at only £150m. the situation is still as clear as very muddy mud, but one prediction would be that Leagues One and Two are voided or frozen sooner or later, and probably sooner, with clubs going into some kind of hibernation to save money.

The delay in putting this into action is strangling the life out of the smaller clubs while the disease is slowly creeping further up the food chain.

[baldy09 156]

Just to add a little humour  An idea - could the clubs finish the season via table top SUBBUTEO  🤣

Edited April 21, 2020 by baldy09
grammer mistake

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,781]

3 hours ago, duke63 said:

Bear in mind clubs have no money coming it at all at the moment other than season tickets DDs and a few sales the the club shops.

They could easily be losing £9 million per week at this moment in time.

If we're still talking about Bournemouth here, then I don't see how £9m can be accurate. Their weekly wage bill is just over £2m, so if you factor in non-playing staff it might be getting closer to £3m, so where is the other £6m going? Their turnover last year was only £131m so £9m a week just can't be right.

Spurs I could just about believe, as they're paying their stadium off in addition to big wages.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

5 hours ago, City 2nd said:

I wouldn’t disagree NN. I’m still paying mine too, but I haven’t been asked too? The club haven’t asked me personally to keep paying. The club have stated if anyone has difficulty in paying, to contact the club. Is that a choice? Millions are going to lose their jobs come the future, this pandemic is going to change the way of life for everyone. I’m lucky in that I’m not furloughed and such matters do not affect me, and yes I’m still paying for my ticket. But when clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd and Spurs take the bull by the horns, and cancel and put on hold the sale of future season tickets which makes up a large proportion of their income, that to me is the right thing to do. What are we, as NCFC supporters paying out for, next season, when NO ONE knows if that season will go ahead. Whilst you and I might be happy to keep paying, many won’t because it will sadly reflect on their income. NCFC surely have some degree of a conscience to take that same step. 

Well it's more of a choice than I would have if they suspended or scrapped it.

One of the great things about the way we pay for our STs is the interest free credit and paying monthly through the year. Not sure if these other clubs you're holding up have these interest free credit schemes?

I pay for mine and the grandsons tickets. It would be a lot of money to suddenly have to pay. It's beyond me why you people who want to do it differently need our club to extend your wishes to me.

Edited April 21, 2020 by nutty nigel

[pearsos 56]

Anyway, going back to the subject of the post “restart”. If the news this morning that pubs and restaurants probably won’t fully re-open until around Xmas then there is no chance of spectators returning to football grounds until a similar time. 
It’s not just just about sitting in a seat watching a game of football, what about the number of people who congregate in the bar areas, especially at half time? It only takes one infected person! And until a vaccine is produced, who is honestly going to risk going to a match?

Like all football fans, I’m missing going to matches but  there are far more important things to think about at the moment, like staying healthy and alive.

Stay safe and healthy everyone.

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by pearsos

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,781]

7 minutes ago, pearsos said:

Anyway, going back to the subject of the post “restart”. If the news this morning that pubs and restaurants probably won’t fully re-open until around Xmas then there is no chance of spectators returning to football grounds until a similar time.

Italy have pencilled in the reopening of stadia for early 2021.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Three players at Arsenal rumoured to be refusing to take a 12.5% pay cut. Ozil, on £350K a week reported to be one of them.

Listening to Carragher and Neville and the difference in their attitudes. Neville, as a Director of Salford is not bothered if the season is null and void. Just would like a decision. And thinks the EPL would be out of order to say they will test players every day if they play behind closed doors during the 40 day season.

Carragher, naturally thinks no matter what, this season must be finished even if they abandon next season. Says null and void would affect everything and scoring records etc would not count. And he thinks fans would ask for their season ticket money back. 

Both of those suggestions are preposterous, No-one can ask for all of their season ticket money back. You can't go to a game, walk out half way and ask for your money back.

Obviously he wants Liverpool to be crowned champions. And argues that it is in the bottom clubs interest to want it null and void. And that is why the top clubs aren't saying anything because it would sound morally wrong. Well it would be morally wrong so they don't have to say it.

I think Carragher is forgetting that the three other leagues cannot afford to complete this season at the expense of next. And 50% of L1 and L2 players are out of contract and no club is going to pay them beyond that date. And clubs could not complete matches with different squads, That would lead to courtroom dramas.