Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
TeemuVanBasten

Is the club taking the p*ss a bit?

Recommended Posts

Webber has asked a lot from fans since coming, wanted us to up the atmosphere and the fans responded with the Barclay End Project, raising thousands to self fund the incredible displays we now see in the Barclay. 

We got promoted and they screwed over season ticket holders and arguably casuals too by extorting them for Premier memberships. Had to have several meetings with fans to understand how they'd upset us. We forgive. 

They spend next to nothing in the summer and ok there have been some moans and groans but we've largely been accepting and willing to see what that translates to in the league below in terms of potentially coming back up stronger. It is a big thing to accept, continue throwing money at a club which is willing to take the money and go down. We accepted it nonetheless, despite two awful transfer windows (with the worst signing saved until the second one, hi Duda). Still we accept it and try and look at the bigger picture. 

But I'm not sure how with all the above considered the club, which is so obviously currently cash rich relative to previous years due to recent spending decisions, has decided to palm off 80 percent of the non-playing wage bill on.... Who? Yes, us, normal hardworking taxpayers. We'll pay it through austerity measures, we'll pay it through tax increases. How about the club pays it with the money it chose not to spend in the transfer window? How about the club pays it using proceeds from the premium membership scam? How about Stuart Webber contributing with a salary deduction? 

I'm annoyed at the players too, don't get me wrong, anybody want to calculate the percentage of £200k against our wage bill for playing staff? What is it, 0.5 percent perhaps? 

I'm not a red flag waving lefty, which incidently is exactly why I don't want this dumped on the national debt. 

It truly is a disgrace that a scheme intended to retain jobs that would otherwise be at genuine risk of redundancy is being used to furlough almost all non playing staff. Are the club trying to argue that if the scheme didn't exist they would operate a big football club with half a dozen people? Delia would be cutting the grass at Colney would she?

It's just sunk in for me how morally unethical it is to go against the spirit of that scheme at a time of national crisis. The only acceptable argument from the club could be that they don't know how long this will last, but they couldn't cover one month? Two months? To see how this plays out?

The players have raised a little bit of money among themselves but what has the club done beyond this? Have we offered Carrow Road to the NHS? What sacrifice is Stuart Webber personally making? 

It's got to the point where I'm not sure I'm all that interested in Webber and Kendall anymore. Couldn't give a frig about Webber's ability to spot a player or two (been a while anyway). Right now I'd take Tony Pulis hoofball if it came with an executive who didn't constantly take some of the most committed and fiercely loyal fans for granted. 

For all the cute social media videos when it really comes down to it we aren't a community club or a family club at all are we. We're just a captive audience of consumers ripe for looting, take away Farke and our club is another which has gone down the road of being another generic corporate entity emotionally detached from its customer base. It's a one way street now. 

Completing a signing just days after taking a taxpayer handout rubs salt in the wounds. Yes a football club needs to recruit for the future, but highly questionable timing.

I'm now wondering whether Delia needs to intervene we actually need an experienced Chief Executive or Chairman sitting in the boardroom with Webber reverting to Technical Director, because the PR is terrible and the sense of corporate responsibility non-existant.

Somebody who has been the CEO of a FTSE 250 company and fancies a retirement job, because we've come out of this looking very had. Morally and ethically wrong and damaging to our reputation.

Demote Webber to head of football, get rid of his mate Ben. Experience lacking in the executive team. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Abridged Version...............Should have spent more. Webber out. Kensall out. Some corporate whizz in. Get Delia mowing. Sorted.

Jeez TvB, you should be in charge. Sounds all so easy.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're running a £38m deficit on the last financial year and you think we are cash rich?  Crazy.

Less than a year ago we achieved a sensational promotion and you want to demote the architect of it? Beyond crazy.

  • Like 14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

 

It's got to the point where I'm not sure I'm all that interested in Webber and Kendall anymore.

Demote Webber to head of football, get rid of his mate Ben. Experience lacking in the executive team. 

I'm not sure why the first statement Is there TVB, you've been consistently critical of Webber at every opportunity since I first saw you posting on here. 

Forget Spurs and Liverpool, we are not even in the same realm as Leicester when it comes to owner wealth, Whats Delia worth - £24M? compare that with the Leicester owners at around £4 Billion +

Up and down the country businesses that have staff that are unable to work (and I would absolutely include most non playing Norwich staff in that) are furloughing their staff while those at the top draw a salary many times more. Why should Norwich be any different? 

5 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

 

Completing a signing just days after taking a taxpayer handout rubs salt in the wounds. Yes a football club needs to recruit for the future, but highly questionable timing.

 

So Norwich, who run within our own budget, haven't been in administration (and all the problems with ripping off businesses that comes with that) haven't overspent and had to cheat FPP rules by selling their stadium to their owners - now need to hamstring ourselves by no longer behaving as a football club. 

I'd love to see Norwich do everything it can it for the community within reason - I fear if it were to follow your suggestions I wouldn't have a club to support.

Edited by Hillhead
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes this scheme is to stop people using their jobs and stop businesses going under, which could just be why we have used it! Our club may be better off than it has been recently bit that does not mean that we are rich. Our owners are paupers even by championship standard, we are trying to run on a self sufficient model, regardless of the division we are in (which is likely to be the championship next season with a corresponding drop in income), having an unexpected cash flow block means that we may actually need some help in the short term.

Yes the players could donate some of their salary (after tax) to support the ones that have been furloughed instead, but we can't mandate that, they have contracts and for all we know some of them are already making significant contributions to charity or other needy causes but just aren't shouting about it, similarly, Webber and the directors have probably deferred some of their salary to help the club out, but again don't feel the need to advertise it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think TvB is still cross with Webber for not saying what he said that he had said. The cheek of the man, couldnt he have gone back and changed what actually did say , so as to fit the narrative?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Pugin said:

We're running a £38m deficit on the last financial year and you think we are cash rich?  Crazy.

We'll see when the accounts come out + first step should have been to ask playing staff, manager and chief exec to contribute to furlough fewer staff. Isn't that simple and not crazy but in fact logical? 

How much was the transfer fee and singing on fee for the Luxembourg winger signed during the first 3 weeks of furlough? 

Defenders of this are also morally questionable including you. Hats of to Leeds players and Bielsa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

Yes the players could donate some of their salary (after tax) to support the ones that have been furloughed instead, but we can't mandate that, they have contracts

Leeds players found it very easy. The entire Spanish league did.

What a country we live in, one where we throw taxpayers money at clubs in the richest league in the world to effectively subsidise the wages of people on seven figure salaries.

Yet people morally support that on here, YOU are the problem. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Hillhead said:

I'm not sure why the first statement Is there TVB, you've been consistently critical of Webber at every opportunity since I first saw you posting on here. 

Forget Spurs and Liverpool, we are not even in the same realm as Leicester when it comes to owner wealth, Whats Delia worth - £24M? compare that with the Leicester owners at around £4 Billion +

Up and down the country businesses that have staff that are unable to work (and I would absolutely include most non playing Norwich staff in that) are furloughing their staff while those at the top draw a salary many times more. Why should Norwich be any different? 

So Norwich, who run within our own budget, haven't been in administration (and all the problems with ripping off businesses that comes with that) haven't overspent and had to cheat FPP rules by selling their stadium to their owners - now need to hamstring ourselves by no longer behaving as a football club. 

I'd love to see Norwich do everything it can it for the community within reason - I fear if it were to follow your suggestions I wouldn't have a club to support.

What other club has thrown money at a new player within days of filing a claim for taxpayers money. At the very least it shows just how out of touch with reality the club is. 

It's bewildering. Odd that people defend it frankly. Deserve relegation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Abridged Version...............Should have spent more. Webber out. Kensall out. Some corporate whizz in. Get Delia mowing. Sorted.

Jeez TvB, you should be in charge. Sounds all so easy.

More abridged version -

"I don't like the current ownership and I don't understand economics."

  • Like 3
  • Haha 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

We'll see when the accounts come out + first step should have been to ask playing staff, manager and chief exec to contribute to furlough fewer staff. Isn't that simple and not crazy but in fact logical? 

How much was the transfer fee and singing on fee for the Luxembourg winger signed during the first 3 weeks of furlough? 

Defenders of this are also morally questionable including you. Hats of to Leeds players and Bielsa.

 

18 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Leeds players found it very easy. The entire Spanish league did.

What a country we live in, one where we throw taxpayers money at clubs in the richest league in the world to effectively subsidise the wages of people on seven figure salaries.

Yet people morally support that on here, YOU are the problem. 

 

Just to clarify - Leeds are deferring their wages. When they get them paid it's going to be with a 2% bonus. So Leeds players are going to be better off for this than if it never happened.

Leeds currently pay Bielsa and his staff £6 Million a year. The squad around £33 Million. So let's not lavish our praise on them too much. 

Leeds owner Radrizzani is worth around 20x what ours was and didn't invest in January due to being at the limit of what's acceptable under FFP so he's taking heavy losses of around £1 Million a month just having them where they are.

 

15 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

What other club has thrown money at a new player within days of filing a claim for taxpayers money. At the very least it shows just how out of touch with reality the club is. 

It's bewildering. Odd that people defend it frankly. Deserve relegation. 

 

But this is part of our business, should should Nissan stop designing their cars of the future because they too are furloughing staff? I appreciate where all your points come from but Norwich City is ultimately a business and needs to run like one else go out of business.

Edited by Hillhead
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Badger said:

More abridged version -

"I don't like the current ownership and I don't understand economics."

I understand that if the accounts in June show a cash balance of £10m, largely debt free and we've taken £2m in taxpayers money (hypothetical numbers) that this is unethical. 

Fully willing to hold my hands up then if wrong, but a few weeks ago a poster who writes long analysis on the accounts every year was predicting a large asset purchase before year end to reduce corporation tax liability, he like me obviously suspects we've currently got a healthy balance sheet. 

Is there any other industry outside investment banking which has a greater turnover to employee ratio than top level football? 

You think the accounts will show an unhealthy financial position then? And that the academy coaches at a club were at serous risk of redudancy without taxpayer paying their wages for probably 6-9 weeks? I'm saying BS. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Badger said:

More abridged version -

"I don't like the current ownership

Must have missed the management buy out, when did the lovely oldiwonks sell out to Webber and Kensell?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Badger said:

More abridged version -

"I don't like the current ownership and I don't understand economics."

I'm a subscriber to the Austrian school of economics by the way. Let bubbles pop, stop propping things up with funny money. QE to subsidise the salaries of millionaires, never heard anything so ludicrious.... This really is late stage capitalism. 

I'd be interested to know if the club is claiming £2500 per month for the players too, they've been sent home haven't they, has that been clarified? Are we, the taxpayers, paying £2500 a month of Duda's wages? I'd quite like to know, he's leased from a German club so I'd hope not. 

Remember how much stick West Ham got for their free stadium built with taxpayers money? We'll we are one of th four or five Premier League clubs that can't criticise this now, let's not forget that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

we've taken £2m in taxpayers money (hypothetical numbers) that this is unethical. 

I really think that many people of this and other threads are completely missing the point of the furlough scheme. It is to protect peoples' jobs and to prevent the economy from going into a massive downwards spiral.

It is firms that do not use the scheme that are being massively socially irresponsible.

 

Norwich City is just a small part of the football world, which is small part of the economy as a whole. 

There are other firms that could probably weather the financial storm if they take the right actions. this would almost certainly involve cutbacks - staffing and other costs; dividends to shareholders etc. However, the greater the extent to which they take such action, the greater the extent a terrible short term health crisis is turned into a long term financial and economic disaster. Poverty costs lives as well as disease.

I have voted for several parties over the years but never the Conservatives: however, apart from being a bit slow off the mark, they have responded very well to the crisis. I would have expected a far less radical response to the economic ramifications of the crisis, especially given the faux arguments that they used for the financial crisis of 2008. However, they have greatly surprised me and they should be commended on their economic actions and I hope that they continue in the same vein, so that Britain can recover properly from the crisis and it not turn into long-term disaster. Maintaining aggregate demand through the profound and unprecedented economic shock is essential. I fear that Hancock's statements may suggest that he doesn't get it (although he may just have been wrong-footed) but Johnson and Sunak, the Chancellor, seem to have done. It is why the illness to Johnson is so worrying (quite apart from concerns to another human being).

The furlough scheme is an economic life-saver and should be deployed by firms, to protect their health and that of the economy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whether or not it's nice to hear, if you read between the lines (and you don't have to try very hard) it's clear when Webber etc came in they were essentially pre-crisis management for a club very close to toppling over financially.

Everything that has happened since then has been with a view to building a sustainable system to secure the club for the future, including the club and fans having to accept low investment on a surprise promotion. It doesn't take much imagination to think what a state we would be in currently if we hadn't cut our cloth in the most strict of ways.

We don't have the multi millions of other Prem teams. Presumably there's still tv money instalments locked up that we budgeted for and now don't know if we will receive. If we've furloughed staff then I believe it's because it represents the best long-term decision for those staff and our club as a whole.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mason 47 said:

Whether or not it's nice to hear, if you read between the lines (and you don't have to try very hard) it's clear when Webber etc came in they were essentially pre-crisis management for a club very close to toppling over financially.

We've just used taxpayers money to sign a player, what part of this don't you understand. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I'm a subscriber to the Austrian school of economics by the way. Let bubbles pop, stop propping things up with funny money.

It is a view of Economics which I thought had largely died and lost credibility.

When you say "let bubbles pop," you mean let firms go bankrupt. This would be truly a huge economic and social disaster if anybody tried to implement such policies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

We've just used taxpayers money to sign a player, what part of this don't you understand. 

I trust you've sent any tax rebate you've ever had straight back to the inland revenue.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

I trust you've sent any tax rebate you've ever had straight back to the inland revenue.

 

Aye, let he who is without sin,  cast the first stone.  Theres a lot of wisdom in those old books. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

We've just used taxpayers money to sign a player, what part of this don't you understand. 

Now just hold your horses there TvB.

Have I missed the official club announcement that we've signed Sinani? Or am I right in saying it's just the player himself saying he's signed and posted the contract back?

Have I misunderstood that he's signed a contract for next season, and as such we aren't financially liable until the commencement of that deal in July? Or is he currently running round Colney on his own counting his shiny pennies?

Don't think I have. Simmer down.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

We'll see when the accounts come out + first step should have been to ask playing staff, manager and chief exec to contribute to furlough fewer staff. Isn't that simple and not crazy but in fact logical? 

 

There is no such thing as collective bargaining with the players. They are all an individual entity so to do what you propose would entail having 27 or 28 separate discussions with players and their representatives and conceivably their lawyers, hoping that some sort of consensus could be reached.

Have you ever tried to reach a consensus with that sort of group - discussions couldn't be facilitated, and if they were there would never, ever be a consensus on this issue, let alone unanimity. 

The way a donation from players across the EPL would have been via the PFA. Unfortunately, the PFA is regarded as a joke in some quarters of the game, with some justification. They are actually worse than a joke.

 

Leave the players alone - they don't deserve you sniping at them. Many have their own issues to contend with at the moment, just as we all have. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's all been said on this thread, but it basically boils down to common sense.  The staff sent home are basically on full pay (80% plus top up of %20) so are protected, the club will be able to maintain the wages of the players, keep it's business plan intact as much as possible thereby protecting the staff in question even more in the future - EXACTLY the point of the government's furlough initiative. 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

It's all been said on this thread, but it basically boils down to common sense.  The staff sent home are basically on full pay (80% plus top up of %20) so are protected, the club will be able to maintain the wages of the players, keep it's business plan intact as much as possible thereby protecting the staff in question even more in the future - EXACTLY the point of the government's furlough initiative. 

 

Yep,  there's some right  royal bitching going on over here about  Covid19 emergency payments too.  I think  that if there is emergency  action, then it is of a take your pick of various schemes scenario.  Governments  have produced schemes to cover general areas, not specifics.  Hair splitting can wait untill everyone  is fed ,housed and cared for sufficiently. .... that is common sense. 

Quibble about minutae once the elephant in the room is safely  way way outside. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Webber has asked.............

Is someone taking the p*ss? Yes - someone is! See if you can work out who TVB? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Is someone taking the p*ss? Yes - someone is! See if you can work out who TVB? 

Stuart Webber for not taking a pay cut? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Calling it now, this will be my big Lakey vs Man City moment when the accounts are published and it shows that we've taken money we didn't need due to a healthy cash surplus. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...