Prime Minister in ITU

[Van wink 2,994]

13 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/uk-presses-points-based-immigration-plan-pandemic-200409153724281.html

Only being reported in Aljazeera at the moment, the British press need to do some catching up!

FT has is, was in their Twitter feed

[Yellow Fever 3,768]

20 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/uk-presses-points-based-immigration-plan-pandemic-200409153724281.html

Only being reported in Aljazeera at the moment, the British press need to do some catching up!

Yes - I have a horrible feeling that what businesses survive  CV-19 Brexit will finish off - or at least very severely hinder their rebuilding.

It must be obvious that many international businesses must be considering if it is sensible to reopen their closed/suspended factories after this shut down. Frankly it would make a huge amount of sense to kick Brexit formally (an extension) into the very long grass for a year so as to delay the owners having to make any such calamitous decisions this summer.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Yellow Fever

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

3 hours ago, Van wink said:

I don’t believe the legislation gives the police power to set up road blocks. So if that’s what she said she was right. 
 

“National Police Chiefs Council and the College of Policing guidance says there is no power to "stop and account" - where an officer stops someone and asks where they are going - and says road checks on every vehicle are "disproportionate"

 

So how do the police find out if someone is breaking the lockdown demands on travelling unnecessarily if they cannot stop vehicles? This comes back to the point I have been making for a while and which chief constables are now making, which is that the lockdown demands are not spelled out and legislated for in a clearcut fashion, unlike in other countries, and there is a difference between what the demands are and the actual legislation.

And the broader political point is that at a time when the entire government message was aimed at keeping people inside over Easter, Patel, even if she had doubts about roadblocks, should have kept quiet.

Edited April 10, 2020 by PurpleCanary

[Monty13 2,231]

11 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

So how do the police find out if someone is breaking the lockdown demands on travelling unnecessarily if they cannot stop vehicles? This comes back to the point I have been making for a while and which chief constables are now making, which is that the lockdown demands are not spelled out and legislated for in a clearcut fashion, unlike in other countries, and there is a difference between what the demands are and the actual legislation.

And the broader political point is that at a time when the entire government message was aimed at keeping people inside over Easter, Patel, even if she had doubts about roadblocks, should have kept quiet.

The police have powers to disband groups obviously breaking the rules don’t they?

Is there even evidence that they require powers to stop motorists? It’s draconian and unnecessary unless there is a real problem.

It’s also completely unenforceable without further legislation as unless they have evidence, which unless your an idiot you are unlikely to give them by verbally admitting fault, they can’t prove your journey is unnecessary.

[ricardo 7,384]

Hangin's to good for 'em.😉

[TIL 1010 4,737]

6 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

 

It’s also completely unenforceable without further legislation as unless they have evidence, which unless your an idiot you are unlikely to give them by verbally admitting fault, they can’t prove your journey is unnecessary.

So if you are halfway up the M6 or along the M4 and your vehicle is registered to an address in London i think you may have a job on your hands .

[Monty13 2,231]

11 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

So if you are halfway up the M6 or along the M4 and your vehicle is registered to an address in London i think you may have a job on your hands .

I know multiple people that travel 2 hours by car for work Til so the M4 scenario isn’t unbelievable, I even know someone that lives in London and drives to Swindon which covers that exactly. I get your broader point though.

My questions would be, how many people are the police really likely to catch through random stops that are flaunting the rules? Is this actually a major problem worth further cutting civil liberties for? Would the police not be more useful with their time concentrated elsewhere? 

I don’t see the evidence that answers any of those, I’d happily change my mind if it was provided.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Monty13

[Mello Yello 2,289]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

So how do the police find out if someone is breaking the lockdown demands on travelling unnecessarily if they cannot stop vehicles? This comes back to the point I have been making for a while and which chief constables are now making, which is that the lockdown demands are not spelled out and legislated for in a clearcut fashion, unlike in other countries, and there is a difference between what the demands are and the actual legislation.

And the broader political point is that at a time when the entire government message was aimed at keeping people inside over Easter, Patel, even if she had doubts about roadblocks, should have kept quiet.

It's rather a difficult ask for the authorities....but here's my personal solution.....

Camper van/Mobile home type vehicles. Vehicles tugging caravans/trailers.....Vehicles with pedal bikes, extra/excess luggage, hang gliders, surfboards and canoes strapped to their roofs and rears.....Vehicles overloaded with a plethora of occupants and luggage.....Motor Cycles with panniers, tents bed rolls an' sleeping bags lashed to them and whether they're riding solo or with pillion passengers....These police observations plus PNC and other electronic checks may be a bit of a giveaway?.....Divert these 'suspect' vehicles off the main motorway into a vast large temporary car park (ie, motorway service stations)....

Police then politely ask the drivers and occupants to vacate their vehicles and direct the drivers and occupants into a temporary fenced compound holding area......(Forget about social distancing, as the suspect vehicle driver/occupants are disregarding the advice and aren't obviously that bothered)....Then call in a 'deployed to that area' Apache Longbow Attack helicopter, which is then cleared to strafe with 30mm cannon those unoccupied 'suspect' vehicles.....and whilst the vehicle owners and occupants positioned a safe distance away and with their jaws dropped, look on....

"DA DA DA DA DA! RAT A TAT A TAT! DA DA DA DA DA! RAT A TAT A TAT!"..... "Crew Chat"...."GET SOME! CHARLIE DON'T SURF! I DO LOVE THE SMELL OF HIGH EXPLOSIVE SHELLS ON AN EASTER BANK HOLIDAY!!!!"....."DA DA DA DA DA! RAT A TAT A TAT! DA DA DA DA DA! RAT A TAT A TAT!.....DA DA! .....DA DA!".....and.....relax.......

Once these 'suspect' vehicles and their once owners/renters 'pride an' joys' are totally destroyed, or are reduced to smouldering piles of junk......The Apache then turns, does a cursory 'I thank you' bow - and the crew smile and wave to the ignorant gobsmacked onlooking with disbelief lockdown abusing crowd -  before the chopper then turns & flies away low over the tree line to refuel & rearm and until called upon again to carry out the next task.....

Each (ex vehicle) driver/renter and occupants are then given a complimentary litre bottle of water and told to make their own way home by whatever means..... 

You see....It don't require extreme measures to get the necessary point and message across to our society.....   

[Van wink 2,994]

2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

So how do the police find out if someone is breaking the lockdown demands on travelling unnecessarily if they cannot stop vehicles? This comes back to the point I have been making for a while and which chief constables are now making, which is that the lockdown demands are not spelled out and legislated for in a clearcut fashion, unlike in other countries, and there is a difference between what the demands are and the actual legislation.

And the broader political point is that at a time when the entire government message was aimed at keeping people inside over Easter, Patel, even if she had doubts about roadblocks, should have kept quiet.

From memory they have powers to stop a vehicle if they have reasonable suspicion that an offence is being committed. That is clearly not the same as setting up roadblocks.

[TIL 1010 4,737]

2 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I know multiple people that travel 2 hours by car for work Til so the M4 scenario isn’t unbelievable, I even know someone that lives in London and drives to Swindon which covers that exactly. I get your broader point though.

My questions would be, how many people are the police really likely to catch through random stops that are flaunting the rules? Is this actually a major problem worth further cutting civil liberties for? Would the police not be more useful with their time concentrated elsewhere? 

I don’t see the evidence that answers any of those, I’d happily change my mind if it was provided.

When this virus has a stranglehold as it does on the world the first thing on my mind is the protection of life at any cost so civil liberties come way down the pecking order on a temporary basis of course.

[Monty13 2,231]

13 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

When this virus has a stranglehold as it does on the world the first thing on my mind is the protection of life at any cost so civil liberties come way down the pecking order on a temporary basis of course.

Doesn’t surprise me, a little fear and some people are happy to trample all over civil liberties.

Regardless, without evidence of a need or a practical method of implementing I’m not in favour of giving police absolute power to stop people on the road without a reason.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

From memory they have powers to stop a vehicle if they have reasonable suspicion that an offence is being committed. That is clearly not the same as setting up roadblocks.

Roadblocks is an emotive word but I don't see (and apparently senior officers don't either) how the police can tell if someone's car journey is essential or not without stopping the vehicle and talking to the driver, which means some system of random roadside checks.

I am not minimising the enormous problems the coronavirus has thrown up, but other countries with just as much a history and culture of liberty and individual freedom have put in place stringent tests to see if their lockdowns, which are often no more draconian than the British regulations but - crucially - spelled out/legislated more precisely, are being enforced.

[Rock The Boat 1,329]

15 hours ago, Herman said:

The cabinet minister Robert Jenrick is facing questions after travelling to visit his parents at the weekend, despite repeatedly urging the public to stay at home during the lockdown to curb the spread of coronavirus.

The Guardian has established that the housing, communities and local government secretary – who has made media appearances urging people to save lives by remaining in their properties even if tempted to see loved ones – went to see his parents at their Shropshire home, 40 miles by road from his own.

Take news from Herman. He was dropping off medicines and did not enter the property

[TIL 1010 4,737]

27 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Doesn’t surprise me, a little fear and some people are happy to trample all over civil liberties.

Regardless, without evidence of a need or a practical method of implementing I’m not in favour of giving police absolute power to stop people on the road without a reason.

' trample all over civil liberties ' is this really how you see the current situation ? As for your' little fear ' comment Monty i am really at a loss to imagine the world you are currently living in.

Edited April 10, 2020 by TIL 1010

[Monty13 2,231]

19 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

' trample all over civil liberties ' is this really how you see the current situation ? As for your' little fear ' comment Monty i am really at a loss to imagine the world you are currently living in.

No it’s how I see it if we start doing unnecessary things like set up Police road blocks and have Police inspect people’s shopping which is what Patel slapped down, and the Chief Constable in question later backtracked on.

This is going to go on for months, I doesn’t need the Police to get heavy handed after 3 weeks when the vast majority of people are doing the right thing. 

I’m living in a world where myself and all my team have to travel to work to supply food and goods to people like you and they are already stressed out. I don’t see any benefit in them having to pass through checkpoints just to go to work or be harassed in their limited free time when shopping for their families without any evidence it will have any affect other than make some people feel safer.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Monty13

[Van wink 2,994]

31 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Roadblocks is an emotive word but I don't see (and apparently senior officers don't either) how the police can tell if someone's car journey is essential or not without stopping the vehicle and talking to the driver, which means some system of random roadside checks.

I am not minimising the enormous problems the coronavirus has thrown up, but other countries with just as much a history and culture of liberty and individual freedom have put in place stringent tests to see if their lockdowns, which are often no more draconian than the British regulations but - crucially - spelled out/legislated more precisely, are being enforced.

The power to stop at random isn’t in the legislation, is that what you are arguing for?

I believe the concept of road blocks was more related to restricting movement into areas like Cornwall, Norfolk etc with the associated risk of moving the infection. I would be quite happy with that at this stage, but at the moment it’s not a power the police have and Patel was correct in pointing that out.

[TIL 1010 4,737]

31 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

No it’s how I see it if we start doing unnecessary things like set up Police road blocks and have Police inspect people’s shopping which is what Patel slapped down, and the Chief Constable in question later backtracked on.

This is going to go on for months, I doesn’t need the Police to get heavy handed after 3 weeks when the vast majority of people are doing the right thing. 

I’m living in a world where myself and all my team have to travel to work to supply food and goods to people like you and they are already stressed out. I don’t see any benefit in them having to pass through checkpoints just to go to work or be harassed in their limited free time when shopping for their families without any evidence it will have any affect other than make some people feel safer.

 

By people like me Monty i assume you mean the population in general ? You really are using some pretty emotive language mate in your posts so i am interested how you think the people who have disregard for the stay at home advice should be deterred by other means than our Police Forces tackling the problem or do we just turn a blind eye ?

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

15 minutes ago, Van wink said:

The power to stop at random isn’t in the legislation, is that what you are arguing for?

I believe the concept of road blocks was more related to restricting movement into areas like Cornwall, Norfolk etc with the associated risk of moving the infection. I would be quite happy with that at this stage, but at the moment it’s not a power the police have and Patel was correct in pointing that out.

 

As I understand it the police have always had the powers to stop vehicles for any reason they feel adequate, in terms of suspecting an offence, although that is obviously open to argument and abuse, and the legislation doesn't increase that, and doesn't allow all vehicles to be stopped.

But it does envisage the situation in which stopping a vehicle might reveal new offences created by the legislation, and that is allowable. So the spirit of the legislation goes a bit beyond the previous rationale of actually suspecting an offence has been committed. And the very fact of such random stops would be a deterrent to motorists thinking of going for an unnecessary drive;

But the real problem is that there is no definition of what is 'a reasonable distance' beyond which motorists should not drive for exercise or whatever, which has led different police authorities having differing interpretations.

[ron obvious 1,502]

2 hours ago, Mello Yello said:

It's rather a difficult ask for the authorities....but here's my personal solution.....

Camper van/Mobile home type vehicles. Vehicles tugging caravans/trailers.....Vehicles with pedal bikes, extra/excess luggage, hang gliders, surfboards and canoes strapped to their roofs and rears.....Vehicles overloaded with a plethora of occupants and luggage.....Motor Cycles with panniers, tents bed rolls an' sleeping bags lashed to them and whether they're riding solo or with pillion passengers....These police observations plus PNC and other electronic checks may be a bit of a giveaway?.....Divert these 'suspect' vehicles off the main motorway into a vast large temporary car park (ie, motorway service stations)....

Police then politely ask the drivers and occupants to vacate their vehicles and direct the drivers and occupants into a temporary fenced compound holding area......(Forget about social distancing, as the suspect vehicle driver/occupants are disregarding the advice and aren't obviously that bothered)....Then call in a 'deployed to that area' Apache Longbow Attack helicopter, which is then cleared to strafe with 30mm cannon those unoccupied 'suspect' vehicles.....and whilst the vehicle owners and occupants positioned a safe distance away and with their jaws dropped, look on....

"DA DA DA DA DA! RAT A TAT A TAT! DA DA DA DA DA! RAT A TAT A TAT!"..... "Crew Chat"...."GET SOME! CHARLIE DON'T SURF! I DO LOVE THE SMELL OF HIGH EXPLOSIVE SHELLS ON AN EASTER BANK HOLIDAY!!!!"....."DA DA DA DA DA! RAT A TAT A TAT! DA DA DA DA DA! RAT A TAT A TAT!.....DA DA! .....DA DA!".....and.....relax.......

Once these 'suspect' vehicles and their once owners/renters 'pride an' joys' are totally destroyed, or are reduced to smouldering piles of junk......The Apache then turns, does a cursory 'I thank you' bow - and the crew smile and wave to the ignorant gobsmacked onlooking with disbelief lockdown abusing crowd -  before the chopper then turns & flies away low over the tree line to refuel & rearm and until called upon again to carry out the next task.....

Each (ex vehicle) driver/renter and occupants are then given a complimentary litre bottle of water and told to make their own way home by whatever means..... 

You see....It don't require extreme measures to get the necessary point and message across to our society.....   

With a little modification  there's the germ of an excellent idea in there for discrimination as to stopping vehicles.

[ron obvious 1,502]

14 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

By people like me Monty i assume you mean the population in general ? You really are using some pretty emotive language mate in your posts so i am interested how you think the people who have disregard for the stay at home advice should be deterred by other means than our Police Forces tackling the problem or do we just turn a blind eye ?

Mello's criterion for detecting suspect vehicles is a bloody good common sense one. The resultant sanction might be considered a little, er, excessive....

 

[Monty13 2,231]

21 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

By people like me Monty i assume you mean the population in general ? You really are using some pretty emotive language mate in your posts so i am interested how you think the people who have disregard for the stay at home advice should be deterred by other means than our Police Forces tackling the problem or do we just turn a blind eye ?

I mean the people who need it TIL, which yes when it comes to the grocery industry last time I checked was pretty much everyone, so would include yourself.

I don’t think I’m being any less emotive than yourself when you are suggesting “first thing on my mind is the protection of life at any cost”. Any cost isn’t a price I’m personally happy with especially with no evidence that extra costs provide any benefit, that’s my only point.

I didn’t say they shouldn’t be deterred Til, I was referring to Patels comments which started this which were entirely reasonable (regardless of what you think of her), she said there’s no need for road blocks and checking people’s shopping and that Chief Constable was wrong to suggest so, and she’s right. The Police should be responding to overt breaches, I just don’t see a need for a further escalation into a stop without cause style approach.

This is a long term problem that needs the whole country onboard, at the minute the vast majority of people are doing the right thing and fully onboard. However the longer this goes on the more important it will be to balance the mental and financial well being of everyone v the vulnerable. Being overly draconian without any need isn’t going to help. This is especially true as it isn’t as black and white as you suggest with your “any cost” comment as there are plenty of victims, particularly children from poor and abusive homes, being negatively affected by this lock down.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Monty13

[Van wink 2,994]

8 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

With a little modification  there's the germ of an excellent idea in there for discrimination as to stopping vehicles.

I think that should be sent by pigeon to Pretty Pritti to avoid any risk of interception by zealots!

Edited April 10, 2020 by Van wink

[lake district canary 4,531]

There is no big draconian measure needed mainly because it's relatively easy for police to look at the people in a vehicle, make a judgement as to whether they think there might be rogue travellers, then all they have to do is check the number plate with DVLA and see where the car is from. If it is way out of it's home area they have clear grounds to stop it and investigate.   No local cars need be stopped, no ordinary people going about local and legitimate travelling for work/to food shops need be affected.  The rogue few imbeciles that are out of their area travelling for recreation will be easily identified and not a huge job to stop them and send them home.  

 

[......and Smith must score. 1,341]

Had many dubious looking characters sneaking into your neck of the woods today LDC ?

[kick it off 1,948]

7 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

So if you are halfway up the M6 or along the M4 and your vehicle is registered to an address in London i think you may have a job on your hands .

Not if your name is Robert Jenrick

[lake district canary 4,531]

9 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

Had many dubious looking characters sneaking into your neck of the woods today LDC ?

In the last week or so there have been a few people who are obvious visitors, but mostly very quiet, all the main car park entrances are blocked, police are stopping anyone who they have a good idea should not be around and so far today has been totally quiet.  People are being stopped and turned away - yesterday a family from Leicester were turned back from the M6 all set for a camping holiday in the lake district. I do think the vast majority have now got the message, but there will always be one or two morons that think they can do what they like.  Also one or two second homes have suddenly sprung to life in the last week or two , but in all honesty, it is as quiet as you could possibly imagine.

[Van wink 2,994]

Seems to be pretty much the same in North Norfolk from what I can see, certainly the NT shutting things down has made a big difference, camping and caravan sites shut down and coastal car parks shut, even parts of the coastal footpath closed off.

The problem is there are lots more people walking, cycling and running locally so if you go for a local walk there are lots more people on the footpaths.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Van wink

[......and Smith must score. 1,341]

2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

In the last week or so there have been a few people who are obvious visitors, but mostly very quiet, all the main car park entrances are blocked, police are stopping anyone who they have a good idea should not be around and so far today has been totally quiet.  People are being stopped and turned away - yesterday a family from Leicester were turned back from the M6 all set for a camping holiday in the lake district. I do think the vast majority have now got the message, but there will always be one or two morons that think they can do what they like.  Also one or two second homes have suddenly sprung to life in the last week or two , but in all honesty, it is as quiet as you could possibly imagine.

Good to hear LDC.

You live in a particularly attractive part of the country so it looks as though the vast majority are rightly abiding by the restrictions.

[Bill 1,788]

9 hours ago, Monty13 said:

 I was referring to Patels comments which started this which were entirely reasonable (regardless of what you think of her), she said there’s no need for road blocks and checking people’s shopping and that Chief Constable was wrong to suggest so, and she’s right. The Police should be responding to overt breaches, I just don’t see a need for a further escalation into a stop without cause style approach.

Any need should have been clarified with the police way back.

All Patel and others have done is put frontline cops in a position that is highly subjective and is bound to put them in the firing line of the public's anger - without a clear message from the Home Scretary.

If she was not so incompetent and gutless she would have put out a message via a public address that stated that police were acting under Home Office instruction, and perhaps added that they should be thanked for the risky task they are having to do. Not go behind their back and state that they are doing the 'wrong thing'.  As with her boss, another spineless shyster who also prefers the popularist lie to the uncomfortable truth.

Currently there is no exact science as to how this disease spreads beyond the thought that it can be spread by close proximity. Unlike the plague where symptons are obvious no one can tell who maybe affected.....so everyone is ok appears to be the view.

But it is not so much the risk each individual chooses to take, but the knowledge that the more close contact there is the more likely the higher infection rate. A problem having to be borne by others....medical staff. Your day out on the beach is someone else's day in the hospital ward trying to cope with the daily occurence of death

It is a case of overworked and stressed 'donkey' barely led by the lying. If you can't be one of the former then at least don't be part of the latter.

[Monty13 2,231]

9 hours ago, Bill said:

Any need should have been clarified with the police way back.

All Patel and others have done is put frontline cops in a position that is highly subjective and is bound to put them in the firing line of the public's anger - without a clear message from the Home Scretary.

If she was not so incompetent and gutless she would have put out a message via a public address that stated that police were acting under Home Office instruction, and perhaps added that they should be thanked for the risky task they are having to do. Not go behind their back and state that they are doing the 'wrong thing'.  As with her boss, another spineless shyster who also prefers the popularist lie to the uncomfortable truth.

Currently there is no exact science as to how this disease spreads beyond the thought that it can be spread by close proximity. Unlike the plague where symptons are obvious no one can tell who maybe affected.....so everyone is ok appears to be the view.

But it is not so much the risk each individual chooses to take, but the knowledge that the more close contact there is the more likely the higher infection rate. A problem having to be borne by others....medical staff. Your day out on the beach is someone else's day in the hospital ward trying to cope with the daily occurence of death

It is a case of overworked and stressed 'donkey' barely led by the lying. If you can't be one of the former then at least don't be part of the latter.

Police don’t have the powers to set up road blocks and search people’s shopping, I’m not sure why a Chief Constable would need clarifying on the powers he’s never had and haven’t been given to him.

I know almost all of your posts at the minute are basically Tories are evil, Tories are incompetent, Tories are liars and Labour would be better.

However the fact is a highly experienced Chief Constable misspoke and made claims beyond his authority and the Home Secretary (whether you think she’s evil incarnate or not) rightly corrected the situation. I would like to see stronger leadership from her in the current situation, doesn’t change the fact in this circumstance she was right.